Shalom, Rocky Wiley.
Rocky Wiley said:
Retrobyter,
I feel you certainly must have some Greek background. But, my friend, you aren't really telling me I am wrong, you are telling the Greek scholars that translated that Greek to the English language that they did not understand Greek. I have enough faith in God that he would not make everyone learn Greek so that we could understand.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
When ye (the disciples) see ALL these things.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Verily I say unto you (disciples) This generation (their generation} shall not pass till ALL these things be fulfilled.
I know that those things happened because the last thing Jesus mentioned was the fact that Heaven and Earth (the temple) would pass away but his word would be forever (the bible we read in English).The temple was destroyed in 70 AD and that was the last day and it happened in their generation.
I am not going to the history books to try to show you that all things did happen, I take the word of God that they did.
Be blessed
No, you're not going to the history books. The only astronomical event that Josephus recorded was the appearance of Halley's Comet in 66 A.D. This was in conjunction with the appearance of the Kaavowd (the Glory) of God's Sh'kinah (Presence), which many interpreted at the time as its departure: Iy-khaavowd ([there is] no-Glory).
§33 [6.33]
Thus there was a star 20 resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, 21 [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it.
(from Josephus: Wars of the Jews, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
Secondly, when are you going to understand that "all" must fit the qualifiers in the context?!
The Greek phrase for "all these things" is "
tauta panta," "
panta" meaning "all." They are both plural words of the neuter gender. It is first found in this chapter in Matthew 24:2, and there it refers to all details of the buildings of the Temple that His disciples were showing Him. "
Panta" by itself is in some Greek versions of Matthew 24:6, and Matthew 24:8 has the phrase at the beginning of the verse "following" the "but" ("
de"). The "all (things)" in verse 6 refers to the wars and rumors (threats) of wars which Yeshua` connected to the "nation shall rise up against nation and kingdom against kingdom and there shall be famines and pestilences and earthquakes in various places" following in verse 7. This is NOT something that occurred just in the first century nor it is exclusively talking about Rome's skirmishes with other nations! Yeshua` is conveying a bigger picture than that! In verse 8, He is saying that "all those things" are just the BEGINNING of the labor pains! Again, all that He has talked about TAKES TIME TO OCCUR!
As is typical with Jewish literature, He then goes BACK to the near future in verse 9, signaled by His use of the "
ye" and "
you" pronouns ("
humas", "
esesthe" = "ye will be"), but then He drifts off into the distant future by changing the pronoun to "many" (
polloi,
pollous) in verses 10, 11, and 12. He doesn't "finish" His words of the distant future until verse 14 where He concludes with "then shall come the end."
Then, He goes back to the near future again in verse 15 where He is translated as saying "
ideete" ("
ye shall see") and this continues to be personal down to verse 20 where He uses "
your flight" ("
humoon"), and His words drift off into the distant future with the words "for the
elects' sake" in verse 22.
He goes back to the near future in verse 23, where He again directs His warning "to
you" ("
humin"), His listeners. But, again, by the end of verse 24, He has drifted off to the distant future with the words "to mislead, if possible, even
the elect""("
planeesai, ei dunaton, kai tous eklektous"), by again changing the pronoun to the word "elect." Then, in verse 25, He concludes His prophecy with the words "look, I've foretold to
you" ("
idou, proeireeka humin").
So, once again, in verse 26, He goes back to the near future with His warning: "If therefore they shall say to
you" ("
ean oun eipoosin humin"). But, verses 27 and 28 again reflect off into the distant future and THAT is when He tells us verses 29-31...
Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
Not only has He already "drifted off into the distant future," but it tells us that the DURATION of the "tribulation" ("
thlipsis") is LONG-LASTING! It wasn't over in the first century or even in the second century! The "tribulation" ("
thlipsis") has continued for 20 centuries, and will continue until the Jews can say, "Baruwkh haba' b-Shem YHWH." "Blessed is He that cometh in the Name of the LORD," or "Welcome, Comer in the Authority of YHWH," and welcome Yeshua` back as YHWH God's
Mashiach-Messiah-
Christos-Christ-Anointed One!
So, in verses 34 and 35, Yeshua` is referring to those things which He as addressed TO THEM SPECIFICALLY! "
Ameen legoo humin," "Truly I say to
you, In no wise will have passed away this generation until 'all these things' (
panta tauta or
tauta panta) were become (
geneetai)," or "are fulfilled."
However, this is referring to "those things" which had received the second person pronoun! Not just blanketly everything in the chapter!
We don't learn Greek to be better than the Greek scholars who translated the Scriptures into English; we learn Greek so that we can understand what precisely was meant in the English to which they translated the Scriptures! We learn Greek to BE ON THE SAME PAGE as the translators! We frequently need to ask ourselves, "WHY did the translators choose that particular word?" We might also ask, "Did this English word mean the same thing that it does today?" "Iron sharpeneth iron" is not just a phrase that applies to character; it also applies to languages. We can use one language to hone our understanding of the other language, and
vice versa! We use the Greek language to be sure that we correctly understand the ENGLISH language into which our Bibles were translated!
Shalom, Dan57.
Dan57 said:
I tend to agree, I suspect that Christ new his words would be recorded, so when his gospel says "you", its often applicable to all who read it. Of course, Christ always addressed the audience who posed the questions. But "you" can be a generic reference used to illustrate a point, it needn't be specific or limited to just those listening at the time. When Jesus told Peter, "You shall deny me thrice", that's a comment of singular distinction and direction. But if Jesus said to you, 'When you hear the birds chirping, morning has come', a comment like that contains information where "you" can be universally relevant to everyone, not just you.
Imo, "This generation" is a future reference because the events described have yet to materialize. It requires the reader to think, instead of just looking at the words. Even Jesus said; "whoso readeth, let him understand" (Matthew 24:15). Clearly, Jesus was referring to the generation of the fig tree, which is why he told us to "Learn it" in verse 32.
"When the Lord shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory. This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the Lord" (Psalm 102:16&18)
What was the question the disciples asked Jesus?; "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"( Matthew 24:3). That's the subject.. Jesus then tells them of all the signs that would proceed his second coming, like the Abomination of Desolation and the Great Tribulation, neither of which happened in the generation of the disciples. Jesus also said; "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). Did that happen during the first century? No.. Did Jesus return in 70AD? No.. Jesus was telling them that once all of these cataclysmic events and apocalyptic signs took place, that it was "this generation" who witnessed these specific events that would not pass away. Jesus is clearly referring to "this generation I am talking about" rather than "this generation I am talking to". Even if you can't grammatically grasp the contextual reference, the events described didn't happen, so the use of some deductive reasoning helps to figure it out.
You are partly correct, but Jesus wasn't referring to the present day generation; "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows" (Mark 13:7-8). Clearly, these are not prophesies or signs of the end. But Jesus went on to say that the generation that see's "the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not" (Mark13:14), and the generation that witnesses the parable/prophecy of the fig tree being fulfilled (vs 28-29), that its "this generation that shall not pass till all these things be done" (Mark 13:30).
Sorry, but Greek doesn't use
su ("you" singular) or
humeis ("you" plural) in such a generic way. It has another verb tense for that. That's an English thing, and not formal English either! In English, it is better to say, "When
one hears the birds chirping, morning has come." This is why I say that it's important to understand the English into which the Greek is translated!
This is also why this passage is not correctly placed totally in the future, as certain premillennialists will do. That is just as bad as the preterists putting everything in the past! With trouble coming their way in less than 40 years, wouldn't it make sense that Yeshua` would warn His followers DIRECTLY of the coming destruction, even if some of His discourse were about the distant future (our future), totally beyond their personal experience?
