Growing in Spiritual Maturity - Being, not doing

[ChristisGod]

That was a quote from Bono of U2.

"It was Bono who said something like... once the Holy Spirit leaves the room, religion takes over." - @Episkopos

I understood the quote as an affirmation

 

[St. SteVen]

I understood the quote as an affirmation

Okay, thanks.

Let's not forget that we are modeling for Christian Newbies how us mature Christians get along.

 

[Lambano]

Here is a question for us to address.

Does DOING Christian things MAKE you a Christian?

cc: @Enoch111 @Lambano @Episkopos @Gottservant @amadeus @Ritajanice @Keturah and anyone else I missed...

I would normally say, "of course not!", but I'm feeling a bit contrarian today...

When things broke down and I decided I didn't want to be what I was, I tried doing Christian things - going to Bible studies and prayer meetings, listening to Christian radio, going on missions to The Projects and stuff like that. And what I experienced and what I learned and the people I met DID change me.

Not in the way I expected, and I won't go so far as to say it "made me a Christian", but it may have prepared me for that night 20 years ago (Lord, it will be 20 years, won't it?) when God came in a wonderful way.

 

[quietthinker]

Growing in Spiritual Maturity - Being, not doing​

I had some spiritual maturity years ago, it was about 80% proof. I thought I was doing OK even well but ended up being an embarrassment. Am I on track?

 

[St. SteVen]

Growing in Spiritual Maturity - Being, not doing​

I had some spiritual maturity years ago, it was about 80% proof. I thought I was doing OK even well but ended up being an embarrassment. Am I on track?

Where are you at now?
Maturity is an elusive thing. It's a journey, not a destination.
We can always be MORE mature.

I think of it as a ladder, or stairway, going upward.
Those ahead of me are helping me ascend, while I help those behind me to ascend.

 

[Episkopos]

Where are you at now?
Maturity is an elusive thing. It's a journey, not a destination.
We can always be MORE mature.

I think of it as a ladder, or stairway, going upward.
Those ahead of me are helping me ascend, while I help those behind me to ascend.

I think it's important to see the distinction between maturity and purity. We work out maturity over time...but purity is a gift of God by grace through faith. Entering into the kingdom realm means we are being empowered to walk as Jesus walked...without sin. The blood of Jesus cleanses from ALL sin. Most will not experience that ONGOING cleansing that happens as we remain IN Christ by the keeping power of God.

How spiritually mature can we be without the purity that comes from God?

 

[St. SteVen]

I think it's important to see the distinction between maturity and purity. We work out maturity over time...but purity is a gift of God by grace through faith. Entering into the kingdom realm means we are being empowered to walk as Jesus walked...without sin. The blood of Jesus cleanses from ALL sin. Most will not experience that ONGOING cleansing that happens as we remain IN Christ by the keeping power of God.

How spiritually mature can we be without the purity that comes from God?

That's a very interesting and thought-provoking reply.
Probably deserves its own topic. (which you may have already done - send link)

I did a topic a while back asking for discussion about piety.
The general response was that piety was about humility.
Which I found rather unsatisfying for some reason.
I wonder if purity is closer to the mark.

What do you see as the difference between maturity and purity?
Or even the similarities? Maybe there is some overlap?

I wonder if maturity naturally, or supernaturally, takes us toward purity.
While our mind is being transformed, our life is being purified?

 

[Episkopos]

That's a very interesting and thought-provoking reply.
Probably deserves its own topic. (which you may have already done - send link)

I did a topic a while back asking for discussion about piety.
The general response was that piety was about humility.
Which I found rather unsatisfying for some reason.
I wonder if purity is closer to the mark.

This is indeed a great comparison. Piety is based on righteousness whereas purity is about holiness...being pure as God is pure...or perfect as God is perfect.

Piety is what we bring to holiness...leaving room for things that are above and beyond us....making room for God. Humbling ourselves before God.

What do you see as the difference between maturity and purity?
Or even the similarities? Maybe there is some overlap?

Maturity is what it takes to REMAIN in the purity that we receive by grace through faith. Although the keeping power of God is very real...we still need to keep our vessel clean.

I wonder if maturity naturally, or supernaturally, takes us toward purity.
While our mind is being transformed, our life is being purified?

I see purity as a stating point not a destination. Maturity I see as progressive as we learn the ways of God AND the wiles of the devil.

 

[St. SteVen]

I see purity as a stating point not a destination. Maturity I see as progressive as we learn the ways of God AND the wiles of the devil.

Great post, thanks.
Does this tie back to the topic question about BEING and DOING?
With purity as the BE and maturity as the DO?
Meaning, maturity does not come without purity?
Certainly a range of success in both areas.

A new believer may view quitting smoking as a HUGE step toward purity.
But the road ahead will present even greater challenges.

 

[quietthinker]

Where are you at now?
Maturity is an elusive thing. It's a journey, not a destination.
We can always be MORE mature.

I think of it as a ladder, or stairway, going upward.
Those ahead of me are helping me ascend, while I help those behind me to ascend.

Today I'm in a regular state of enquiry and discovery of the light that shines brighter every day. The awareness of 'in Jesus' all the promises of God are fulfilled has me longing for his appearing as I live in gratitude. There is however also disappointment, and that of the indifference, dogged ignorance and resistance of many to what I pin my hopes on.

 

[Behold]

Yes and No. It makes you a Christian in the sense that you are working out your salvation

Salvation is Jesus on the Cross.

How do you work that out?
How do you "work out" what Jesus accomplished on the Cross?
How do you "work out" what Jesus did for you. on the Cross?

So, this working out is not about doing some deeds. or getting into the water..........not at all.

Its something much different.

 

[ChristisGod]

I think it's important to see the distinction between maturity and purity. We work out maturity over time...but purity is a gift of God by grace through faith. Entering into the kingdom realm means we are being empowered to walk as Jesus walked...without sin. The blood of Jesus cleanses from ALL sin. Most will not experience that ONGOING cleansing that happens as we remain IN Christ by the keeping power of God.

How spiritually mature can we be without the purity that comes from God?

There is no maturity without purity, holiness, righteousness, obedience. They go hand in hand together. Those who are not holy, righteous, pure, obedient are by default immature. What people refer to as carnal christians.

hope this helps !!!

 

[St. SteVen]

Today I'm in a regular state of enquiry and discovery of the light that shines brighter every day. The awareness of 'in Jesus' all the promises of God are fulfilled has me longing for his appearing as I live in gratitude.

Thanks for your reply.
What signs do you see of Christ's soon appearing?

There is however also disappointment, and that of the indifference, dogged ignorance and resistance of many to what I pin my hopes on.

Indeed. But don't let them drag you down to their level.
You see a difference in them, as much as they see a difference in you.
Imagine their level of self-disappointment.
They can be rightfully envious of us.

We have a tremendous opportunity to lift them up and encourage them.
This is a rare commodity among those they typically relate to.

 

[ChristisGod]

I see purity as a stating point not a destination. Maturity I see as progressive as we learn the ways of God AND the wiles of the devil.

I have seen more mature young believers in the faith than those who have been "christians" for decades.

hope this helps !!!

 

[St. SteVen]

There is no maturity without purity, holiness, righteousness, obedience. They go hand in hand together. Those who are not holy, righteous, pure, obedient are by default immature. What people refer to as carnal christians.

This begs a question about what spiritual maturity really is.

You gave a good definition. But it makes me wonder.
I know of a few well known Christians that I consider very mature that are pretty rough characters.
Someone like Brennan Manning, or Johnny Cash, whom Kris Kristofferson wrote a song about.
Lyrics below.

The Pilgrim

See him wasted on the sidewalk
In his jacket and his jeans
Wearing yesterday's misfortunes like a smile
Once he had a future full of money, love and dreams
Which he spent like they was going out of style
Then he keeps right on a changing
For the better or the worse
Searching for a shrine he's never found
Never knowing if believing is a blessing or a curse
Or if the going up was worth the coming down

He's a poet
He's a picker
He's a prophet
He's a pusher
He's a pilgrim and a preacher and a problem when he's stoned
He's a walking contradiction
Partly truth and partly fiction
Taking every wrong direction on his lonely way back home

He has tasted good and evil in your bedrooms and your bars
And he's traded in tomorrow for today
Running from his devils, lord
Reaching for the stars
Losing all his loves along the way
But if this world keeps right on turning
For the better or the worse
All he ever gets is older and around
From the rocking of the cradle
To the rolling of the hearse
The going up was worth the coming down

He's a poet
He's a picker
He's a prophet
He's a pusher
He's a pilgrim and a preacher and a problem when he's stoned
He's a walking contradiction
Partly truth and partly fiction
Taking every wrong direction on his lonely way back home
There's a lot of wrong directions on that lonely way back home

 

[ChristisGod]

This begs a question about what spiritual maturity really is.

You gave a good definition. But it makes me wonder.
I know of a few well known Christians that I consider very mature that are pretty rough characters.
Someone like Brennan Manning, or Johnny Cash, whom Kris Kristofferson wrote a song about.
Lyrics below.

The Pilgrim

See him wasted on the sidewalk
In his jacket and his jeans
Wearing yesterday's misfortunes like a smile
Once he had a future full of money, love and dreams
Which he spent like they was going out of style
Then he keeps right on a changing
For the better or the worse
Searching for a shrine he's never found
Never knowing if believing is a blessing or a curse
Or if the going up was worth the coming down

He's a poet
He's a picker
He's a prophet
He's a pusher
He's a pilgrim and a preacher and a problem when he's stoned
He's a walking contradiction
Partly truth and partly fiction
Taking every wrong direction on his lonely way back home

He has tasted good and evil in your bedrooms and your bars
And he's traded in tomorrow for today
Running from his devils, lord
Reaching for the stars
Losing all his loves along the way
But if this world keeps right on turning
For the better or the worse
All he ever gets is older and around
From the rocking of the cradle
To the rolling of the hearse
The going up was worth the coming down

He's a poet
He's a picker
He's a prophet
He's a pusher
He's a pilgrim and a preacher and a problem when he's stoned
He's a walking contradiction
Partly truth and partly fiction
Taking every wrong direction on his lonely way back home
There's a lot of wrong directions on that lonely way back home

I look at maturity as obedience and bearing fruit, walking in the spirit. It depends on the individual and their growth or sanctification. Some mature earlier than others just like in real life. Now a qualification for elder/episkipos is different and must not be a new convert and also have a family / children that are following the Lord and obedient to their father.

 

[quietthinker]

Thanks for your reply.
What signs do you see of Christ's soon appearing?

well, I think the rapidity of implosion of systems around the world; of stresses on a scale unknown to past generations, environmentally, financially, relationally etc etc and the frantic peddling of leaders to contain that which appears uncontainable, all herald a short time.
And surprisingly, the Gospel of Gods kindness and magnanimity advancing faster and faster with 'battle lines' so to speak, becoming more and more distinct.

 

[quietthinker]

This begs a question about what spiritual maturity really is.

You gave a good definition. But it makes me wonder.
I know of a few well known Christians that I consider very mature that are pretty rough characters.
Someone like Brennan Manning, or Johnny Cash, whom Kris Kristofferson wrote a song about.
Lyrics below.

The Pilgrim

See him wasted on the sidewalk
In his jacket and his jeans
Wearing yesterday's misfortunes like a smile
Once he had a future full of money, love and dreams
Which he spent like they was going out of style
Then he keeps right on a changing
For the better or the worse
Searching for a shrine he's never found
Never knowing if believing is a blessing or a curse
Or if the going up was worth the coming down

He's a poet
He's a picker
He's a prophet
He's a pusher
He's a pilgrim and a preacher and a problem when he's stoned
He's a walking contradiction
Partly truth and partly fiction
Taking every wrong direction on his lonely way back home

He has tasted good and evil in your bedrooms and your bars
And he's traded in tomorrow for today
Running from his devils, lord
Reaching for the stars
Losing all his loves along the way
But if this world keeps right on turning
For the better or the worse
All he ever gets is older and around
From the rocking of the cradle
To the rolling of the hearse
The going up was worth the coming down

He's a poet
He's a picker
He's a prophet
He's a pusher
He's a pilgrim and a preacher and a problem when he's stoned
He's a walking contradiction
Partly truth and partly fiction
Taking every wrong direction on his lonely way back home
There's a lot of wrong directions on that lonely way back home

ah yes, I remember this song well!

 

[Gottservant]

Here is a question for us to address.

Does DOING Christian things MAKE you a Christian?

cc: @Enoch111 @Lambano @Episkopos @Gottservant @amadeus @Ritajanice @Keturah and anyone else I missed...

Other people see our works and conclude we are Christian, so yes "works make us more Christian" from other people's eyes.

 

[St. SteVen]

Other people see our works and conclude we are Christian, so yes "works make us more Christian" from other people's eyes.

I know atheists that behave more like Christians than most of us.
Does that make them "more" Christian in others eyes?