Growth versus Law

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Netchaplain

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It is by the Holy Spirit that growth develops from a life that loves it. Paul does not allow the law, either as a means of working our righteousness before God, nor as a means of producing sanctification. As justification is by faith in the Savior, so also, growth is the outcome of the new life, acted upon by the Spirit of Christ. Thus Paul refuses the law altogether for the believer.

The law is not allowed to have any part in the Christian economy at all (for though “the law is not of faith,” yet not of man, but of God; the law does not consist of faith in Christ, nor does it require it” – J Gill); it is, as one of the elements of the world, gone for the believer in the Cross of Christ (law condemns unrighteousness and thereby commends righteousness, as those “walking in the Spirit” will desire to do rightly without being told - Gal 5:23—NC). The Cross has swept away all that belongs to the world; there is not a vestige of it left for God, nor faith (Gal 3:12 – law requires self-righteousness, which does not exist, as all righteousness is from God and imputed to believers (Ro 4:11—NC) because it cannot be imparted - 1Co 1:30—NC). Hence Paul takes up the elements one by one and shows that we are delivered from them all. It is wonderful to see this, and that our Father has imparted a new life and nature, to which nothing that applied to the old can attach nor have any part in. We ourselves, personally, are now in a mixed condition of things, and have the two principles within us, but the old is not allowed, and the new is only recognized.

In Galatians 2:20 Paul says, “I have been crucified with Christ.” Then he says, “They that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts” (Gal 5:24). Here the truth of crucifixion is applied generally to the believer. It is true of all those that are Christ’s. But it is one thing to have the judicial truth pronounced by the Spirit in the Word (He being the Author of God’s written Word – 2Tim 3:16; 2Pe 1:21), and it is another thing entirely for the individual believer to be able to appropriate (reckon—NC) that truth by faith to himself. We find in our experience as believers that we have to go through our spiritual education and apply to ourselves all the truths that radiate from the Cross.

Now, “They that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh, with its affections and lusts,” is a judicial statement; and while it remains true of us, it is ours to make it true to ourselves individually. We have the same truth presented in a slightly different aspect in at least four ways in Scripture, and it will help us to see how it is brought practically to bear upon us.

First, “For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God” (Col 3:3). Here, again, the truth is stated judicially; that is, it is a truth concerning us from God’s point of view. It is a very full statement, and no man has any part in the new order of things (concerning producing the “newness”—NC), but as he is looked at as dead to all that in which he once lived, in the old Adamic order. We “passed from death into life” (Jhn 5:24; 1Jo 3:14). We are re-created into a new creation (not restored but something never having existed before—NC), in resurrection, through the “narrow” door (Mat 7:13, 14—NC) of Calvary-death. It is by the Cross we enter into it (cannot live unto righteousness until dyeing unto unrighteousness - Jhn 12:24—NC), and having entered, we leave everything that belonged to the old order, morally, behind. “Ye have died,” says Paul, but yet you live (we died to guilt and dominion of “the old man” but it is not dead in us, as it ever opposes to delay spiritual growth, but can never affect redemption – Gal 5:17—NC). Your new life (new man or new nature—NC) is a “hidden” one (Col 3:3), away, above the sphere in which your bodies are, where Christ sitteth. Therefore, “seek the things that are above” (Col 3:1).

Second, in Romans 6:11 we have the exhortation to apply this truth in a particular way, practically. “Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” These we are exhorted to reckon, to count upon, that which is true of us judicially, to be true of us practically. It is not that we are actually dead, for Scripture says, “Reckon” yourselves (old self—NC) to be dead—that is, be practically dead. We are held to be dead judicially by God, and to reckon with God is characteristic of faith.

“We thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again” (2Co 5:14, 15). Here, faith reckons with God.

It says, I was dead in sins, He died for me, I now live not unto myself, which would be unto sin, but to Him who died for me (Rom 14:7, 8—NC). I reckon myself alive to God in Jesus Christ my Lord. It is in the power of the new life, we thus hold ourselves dead, as far as the old Adamic life is concerned.

Third, in 2 Corinthians 4:10 we find out how it was carried out by Paul. “Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.” What does he mean by that? He means that he is reckoning himself to be dead to everything down here, because it is all ruined by sin. The word translated “dying” is literally “deadness.” The Lord Jesus was dead to it all. Sin had left its stamp on everything down here, and He was necessarily dead to it (in His desires for it—NC). Now Paul reckoned this to be true of himself by faith; “Always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus.”

Now there is a fourth thing: “For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the Life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh” (2Co 4:11). Here is the Father enabling him to do the thing he desired to do (Phl 2:13—NC). Who delivered him unto death? Judicially, positionally, God did at the Cross. Then He carried out that death practically, day by day. “We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed (2Co 4:8, 9).

Why did the Father put him into persecution? Why was Paul allowed to be cast down, perplexed, troubled? Because Paul wanted to bear about in his body the dying of the Lord Jesus, and the Father says, I will enable you to do it. Paul desired in all the vigor of divine life to serve his Lord, so He made the very difficulties he encountered in his service a means processing to this end; ordering indeed for this very purpose.

It is evident that the daily death and life go together. God does not want dead men spiritually. He does not want us to wake up to the truth that we are dead and remain there. No, He gives us a new life and nature (2Pe 1:4), and He intends that we manifest that life in these mortal bodies. Now we cannot manifest that life except as we keep the old life in death, or under the nullifying power of death—inactive (though sin yet affects, the point is that we are ever absent of the desire after the old man—NC). “I do it,” says Paul, “that the life of Jesus be manifested.” Then the Father enables you to do that and puts you in a place of trouble, perplexity and persecution, in order that you may do it.

Saints of God today say, How is it I am in troubles, straightened circumstances? How is it I am so tried? Well, beloved, if we do not get persecution in the same way as in the Apostles days, yet we get illness and difficulties and trials of various kinds in its place; and it is our Father enabling us to hold ourselves in the place of death, in order that the Life of the Lord Jesus may be manifest to all.

When this is the case, we too shall be able to say, “Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong” (2Co 12:9, 10).


—C J Stewart (1775 – 13 July 1837)





MJS online devotional excerpt for September 29

“During the first half of your Christian life you are concerned about your doing; in the second half you will be burdened about your being.” -MJS

"The more simply devoted you are to the Lord Jesus, who is worthy of all devotion, the more fragrance there will be in all your ways; for it will be manifested that you are not seeking yourself, not wincing because your rights are invaded, or that you are not as much cared for as you are entitled to be. Rather, there is only one governing thought of your life about everything, and that is, how you may distinguish Him who fills every need in your heart, and lights it up with unfading joy." -J.B.S.

"In creation God planted a man in the garden in innocence; in redemption He has planted a Man in heaven, in glory. There is a glory that excelleth. The glory in redemption leaves the glory that was once in creation as nothing." -J.G.B.
None But The Hungry Heart
 

Tong2020

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So how do you define, "Repent and believe the Gospel", and, "without holiness no man shall see the Lord"? Also, on what standard do you put forward to confirm that a believer is showing the fruit of repentance?
First of all, obvious as it is, I’d like to point out that “Repent and believe the gospel” is not the gospel.

On your first question, it means, from a belief in the non existence of God or from an unbelief in the God spoken and revealed in the Word of God in the Bible, or from a wrong or false belief about God, to change your mind and heart about that, unto a belief in God that comes from the heart, and towards a firm and genuine faith in Jesus Christ whom He sent, that is, to receive and truly believe in the gospel that the apostles preached.

On the second, what “without holiness no man shall see the Lord” means, at least for me, is that, there is this necessary requirement concerning the matter of the grace of being able to see to God, that is, holiness. Now, holiness is a big word. But to give you an idea, let me try to give you a general thought about it, at least my understanding of it. It is a sanctified state of existence and being - separated from anything that is ungodly, impure, evil, and displeasing to God.

On the third and last question, it would be that of a changed man/life, demonstrating unselfish love, love for God and others, love for righteousness and hate for unrighteousness, faithful to God, and whose hope is in no other but God and Him whom He sent, Jesus Christ.

I hope you find my answers having some light and some salt.

Tong
R4408
 
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Netchaplain

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So how do you define, "Repent and believe the Gospel", and, "without holiness no man shall see the Lord"? Also, on what standard do you put forward to confirm that a believer is showing the fruit of repentance?
To me one who genuinely repents, genuinely believes, as it's my understanding they they are simultaneously received upon rebirth, as are all godly attributes (2Pe 1:3); and the primary fruit of all things godly is God's love within the believer unceasingly being shown to all others (Jhn 13:35). I say "unceasingly" because one falsely professing Christ will inevitably discontinue the hypocrisy (unless this isn't to what you're referring).

God's blessings to your Family!
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
First of all, obvious as it is, I’d like to point out that “Repent and believe the gospel” is not the gospel.
I agree…the gospel is more…repent and turn back to trust.
The gospel was preached by the apostles as Jesus had commanded of them to do.

Now what is the gospel that the apostles preached? Is it not Jesus Christ ~ His person, life, death, and resurrection? The gospel is not about how to be saved, but about the salvation of God, that is come, Jesus Christ.

As is any news that comes to people, there are those who believes and those who don’t.

Those who believe, are those whom Christ saved at the cross, by His death and resurrection. They will all be revealed in time, all from the time of Adam until the last day.

Tong
R4414
 
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Iconoclast

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It is by the Holy Spirit that growth develops from a life that loves it. Paul does not allow the law, either as a means of working our righteousness before God, nor as a means of producing sanctification. As justification is by faith in the Savior, so also, growth is the outcome of the new life, acted upon by the Spirit of Christ. Thus Paul refuses the law altogether for the believer.

You consistently get it wrong. You are a false teacher.
Paul in romans 3;

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea,
we establish the law.

Paul in Romans7;25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul in romans13;
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another
hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour:
therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul in first Corinthians
1 cor9;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (
being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
 

MatthewG

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@Netchaplain There has been something that has come up lately. In life when it comes to my understanding and faith.

My faith is in Christ Jesus. Made right with God am I because of this. There is nothing else that makes me right with God, other than faith in Jesus.

Going to Leviticus 19; there is the commandments that Moses was to give to the Sons of Israel now some of them are unable to keep anyway cause as believers today we are under the new covenant, which is Grace and where God writes his laws upon the minds and hearts of people; which will be made know to them by the Holy Spirit which indwells them.

Now one can go back and look and observe the law; though I personally can’t say to another person I’m doing this and this and you better do it to. No.

You can go back to look and delight in Gods law like Paul who delighted in the Law of God because it was good, holy, and right. Though we too observe them can also delight in them however you and me know that that Law does not make us right with God at all.

Jesus does. Now with this in mind the commandments are to love God and love others. You can observe the Law of God which doesn’t make us right but however the principles that are there are highly beneficial to at least observe and know. Though they do not make you better than anyone else, nor can you be justified by them.

Only Faith in Jesus makes us right with God. That Faith should produce works of love in a believers life, which is love for God and love for others.

Do you have any thoughts on these things? Are they good or beneficial to a believers understanding?

Most people now today who may be believers may not exercise learning and growing in knowledge and you and me may bring something to them when the time comes, but they may just live by faith as believers and God will work with them by the spirit. Without ever reading the Bible itself.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Although I wasn’t asked, I have something to say.
There were 2 tablets of law given to Moses. One dealt with commands concerning loving your neighbor and one dealt with commands concerning loving God. They are all covered by saying, love others and love God.
So one tablet(love neighbor) deals with righteousness and one tablet (love God) deals with holiness.

Now when I examine myself, I am a seething pot of resentments, anger, offendedness, grudges, impatience with others, mad that everyone is so selfish and can see my own faults but not their own, and so on. So I set about trying to be better, but I fail often. My own failures make me see myself more clearly and I begin to see I’m just like other men and I have the same failures with selfishness and failing to love as other men do. This leads to forgiveness because if I condemn them, I condemn myself also.

So seeing myself more clearly leads to forgiveness. But it also leads to a hunger for righteousness in me. I see I will always fail sometimes and I go to God with my hunger and trust Him to work in me and renew my mind. I see that if I fail in loving my neighbor, who I see, I’m not loving God, who I can’t see. So then I begin to hunger for holiness too when I see my lack of love for God. But all along the way, it is only by trusting God (faith), that I can be fixed, because a leopard can’t change his own spots.

I could worry about different laws and such - many men do go that route- but if I don’t eat this and don’t touch that, does it matter if all the while I am a filthy, seething pot inside?

so it all, always, comes back to trust. To setting aside my striving (because a leopard can’t change his spots) and resting in trust that God will do what He has said He will. So any road or side street I begin to venture down, it always eventually leads me back to trust in God rather than my own striving. And He trains me in the righteousness that is by trust and I learn the obedience of trust by the things I suffer. And as for holiness, that is Gods gift. No amount of striving will ever take me into holiness. God Himself has to take me there because there is only One who is holy.
 

MatthewG

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@stunnedbygrace thank you for sharing that insight with everyone here as you are a sister in Christ thank you those encouraging and thoughtful insights.

You mentioning about when you look at your self and realizing your own failures leads us to forgiveness of ourselves because God has forgiven us. So when one fails they aren’t hard on themselves about it. It’s just a realized fault to try to go and as you said feed off of Jesus to remember who it is we are trusting our Lord and God.

It always goes back to trusting God and realizing that He is the one who is working on our hearts and minds, as one lives and has a relationship with God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

It’s not about looking at others and comparing oneself to them it is about becoming humble, gentle, with realization of whom one is serving and that is God by faith and trusting Jesus in having love for God and also for others.

With love in Christ,
Matthew G
 

stunnedbygrace

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@stunnedbygrace thank you for sharing that insight with everyone here as you are a sister in Christ thank you those encouraging and thoughtful insights.

You mentioning about when you look at your self and realizing your own failures leads us to forgiveness of ourselves because God has forgiven us. So when one fails they aren’t hard on themselves about it. It’s just a realized fault to try to go and as you said feed off of Jesus to remember who it is we are trusting our Lord and God.

It always goes back to trusting God and realizing that He is the one who is working on our hearts and minds, as one lives and has a relationship with God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

It’s not about looking at others and comparing oneself to them it is about becoming humble, gentle, with realization of whom one is serving and that is God by faith and trusting Jesus in having love for God and also for others.

With love in Christ,
Matthew G

Yes, you come to a point where you aren’t so hard on yourself about failures. And that leads to not being so hard on others about failures.

Part of not being so hard on yourself for your spots is that you are so thankful God SHOWED you your spots because before, you couldn’t see them. And you can’t ask for what you lack unless you SEE what you lack.
 
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Paul Christensen

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First of all, obvious as it is, I’d like to point out that “Repent and believe the gospel” is not the gospel.

On your first question, it means, from a belief in the non existence of God or from an unbelief in the God spoken and revealed in the Word of God in the Bible, or from a wrong or false belief about God, to change your mind and heart about that, unto a belief in God that comes from the heart, and towards a firm and genuine faith in Jesus Christ whom He sent, that is, to receive and truly believe in the gospel that the apostles preached.

On the second, what “without holiness no man shall see the Lord” means, at least for me, is that, there is this necessary requirement concerning the matter of the grace of being able to see to God, that is, holiness. Now, holiness is a big word. But to give you an idea, let me try to give you a general thought about it, at least my understanding of it. It is a sanctified state of existence and being - separated from anything that is ungodly, impure, evil, and displeasing to God.

On the third and last question, it would be that of a changed man/life, demonstrating unselfish love, love for God and others, love for righteousness and hate for unrighteousness, faithful to God, and whose hope is in no other but God and Him whom He sent, Jesus Christ.

I hope you find my answers having some light and some salt.

Tong
R4408
What you have stated are generalizations. You have stopped short of stating the specifics concerning a believer's conduct that shows that he or she is showing the fruit of repentance. When looking at a person who claims he has repented, how do you know that he is telling the truth? What are the characteristics of a person who claims he is living a holy life and demonstrating his love for God?
 

Paul Christensen

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To me one who genuinely repents, genuinely believes, as it's my understanding they they are simultaneously received upon rebirth, as are all godly attributes (2Pe 1:3); and the primary fruit of all things godly is God's love within the believer unceasingly being shown to all others (Jhn 13:35). I say "unceasingly" because one falsely professing Christ will inevitably discontinue the hypocrisy (unless this isn't to what you're referring).

God's blessings to your Family!
Okay. But exactly how would they actually demonstrate repentance and genuine belief? What exactly are the "godly attributes"? How is he demonstrating "love"?

If attending church, walking the walk and talking the talk, living a totally moral life, being kind to animals, zealous in church work, even being a deacon, elder or the pastor are things that a hypocrite can do quite convincingly, how would you know that the person sitting beside you in church is a genuine converted Christian, or just a hypocrite?
 

Tong2020

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What you have stated are generalizations. You have stopped short of stating the specifics concerning a believer's conduct that shows that he or she is showing the fruit of repentance. When looking at a person who claims he has repented, how do you know that he is telling the truth? What are the characteristics of a person who claims he is living a holy life and demonstrating his love for God?
If we go to specifics, it would be a long post. For there are a lot to look into to be sure that one is true in all that he says and do.

Perhaps it would even take a lifetime to really be sure of person’s true self and heart. For me, I believe only God knows for sure who are true or not. It is God who truly knows very intent of the heart of a person.

In a corrupt world we live in, where lies, deceptions, and hypocrisy, are all over the place, it would be very hard, if at all possible, for us to be sure and not be mistaken in our judgment as to the matter of whether one is a true child of God or not. So, for as long as one confess Jesus Christ is Lord and profess to believe in the gospel, and see him living a life of good works, that shows love, patience, kindness, joy, peace, faithfulness, and so on, I receive him to be a true brother in Christ.

Tong
R4443
 

Paul Christensen

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If we go to specifics, it would be a long post. For there are a lot to look into to be sure that one is true in all that he says and do.

Perhaps it would even take a lifetime to really be sure of person’s true self and heart. For me, I believe only God knows for sure who are true or not. It is God who truly knows very intent of the heart of a person.

In a corrupt world we live in, where lies, deceptions, and hypocrisy, are all over the place, it would be very hard, if at all possible, for us to be sure and not be mistaken in our judgment as to the matter of whether one is a true child of God or not. So, for as long as one confess Jesus Christ is Lord and profess to believe in the gospel, and see him living a life of good works, that shows love, patience, kindness, joy, peace, faithfulness, and so on, I receive him to be a true brother in Christ.

Tong
R4443
This is the reason why Jesus gave us the parable of the wheat and the tares. We just don't know the difference between a true Christian and a hypocrite by outward appearances. God is the only one who knows the heart of people. The Scripture says that the foundation of God stands sure, the Lord knows those who are His." The Day of Judgment will be the time when the secrets of men's hearts will be made manifest. That's when the "sheep" will be divided from the "goats". Until then we have to give every professing Christian the benefit of the doubt. We treat every one of our brothers and sisters in Christ as if they are genuine believers, and leave any judgment to the contrary to Christ Himself. That's what Paul said. He would not allow anyone to judge him in the way he conducted his faith in Christ. He did not even try to judge himself, but was content to leave the judgment to Christ. Some hypocrites will manifest themselves in this life by the way they continue blatantly sinning, giving false teaching, engaging in spurious manifestations, and falling away from the faith as problems and persecution arise.

The Scripture says that we should examine ourselves, whether we are in the faith. Therefore we can't take ourselves from granted, but to search the Scriptures to ensure that our faith is genuine and Gospel oriented.
 

Grailhunter

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I’d like to point out that “Repent and believe the gospel” is not the gospel.

Not for you because you are one of those that preach the gospel of sin and sin some more.
I am reasonably sure that you know what repent means.....but you do not like it.
 

Grailhunter

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The Jewish - Christian Judaizers....the enemy of the Gospel. Paul fought them all through his ministry. The Law....the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones....Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us....

There is nothing lacking in Christianity that one would need to look at the Law for anything.
 
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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
I’d like to point out that “Repent and believe the gospel” is not the gospel.
Not for you because you are one of those that preach the gospel of sin and sin some more.
I am reasonably sure that you know what repent means.....but you do not like it.
Not only for me Grail but for all. That is obviously not the gospel. Anyone can easily see that by simply reading it “repent and believe the gospel”. Is that the gospel for you?

I see a baseless accusation from you. Why do that?

I do know what to repent means. And I’ve repented unto God, towards faith Jesus Christ, and the gospel, many years ago. And I would not change my mind on that ever. I’d be a fool to do so. Besides, that is an impossibility, at least for me. And I sure like it (to have repented).

Tong
R4444
 
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Tong2020

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The Christian Judaizers....the enemy of the Gospel. Paul fought them all through his ministry. The Law....the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones....Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us....

There is nothing lacking in Christianity that one would need to look at the Law for anything.

Christianity have the words of God in scriptures. And included in that is the law. And this is the word of God concerning the scriptures, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and isprofitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Tong
R4445
 
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Netchaplain

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What exactly are the "godly attributes"?
Hi and appreciate your reply and comments! Godly attributes are all things that are attributed to God (originates from Him) and are performed by His Spirit using the believer. I believe whether or not one is genuine who professes to be a believer is a lesser issue that just assuming it true, but given enough time with one as such can give an acceptable indication, because an individual can know for certain of themselves but others cannot know the heart of others for certain, but only God does know.

If attending church, walking the walk and talking the talk, living a totally moral life, being kind to animals, zealous in church work, even being a deacon, elder or the pastor are things that a hypocrite can do quite convincingly, how would you know that the person sitting beside you in church is a genuine converted Christian, or just a hypocrite?
They don't endure and eventually discontinue their profession (showing they weren't reborn), for it requires rebirth to manifest perseverance in Christ (by the Spirit of course).