Hallowed Be Thy Name

[Wrangler]

This thread was inspired by @Aunty Jane. So I want to give a shut out to her insightful comments in other threads?

The name of man is not Man and the name of god is not God. Both man and god refer to general forms or species of life. Individual men and individual gods have unique personal names, e.g., Aristotle and Zeus. The one true god’s personal name has been removed from the Bible - for whatever motivation - resulting in blurring what is clearly distinct, often rendering his name with the word, capitalized "LORD" with the dozens of lowercase ‘lords’ that are in the Bible, among which Jesus is one. However, the word lord is a title not a name.

God’s personal name is in Scripture some 5,000 times – and was systematically removed. (The NOG translation, Names of God translation, put it right.) Imagine how upset any author would be if you removed his name from his book? I do imagine God is not too happy with this act by his children and it makes a mockery of what Jesus said in Mat 6:9, hallowed be thy name, KJV.

The NLT renders it may your name be kept holy. ‘Keeping it holy’ does not mean removing it entirely. It started off innocent enough in the ancient culture of OT times. So, concerned about violating the commandment to not use the LORD’s name in vain, they prohibited using it at all and made the substitution to 'Adonai.' However, in 21st century America, we will adhere to Scriptural purity, obey Christ in keeping God’s name holy by keeping his name, YHWH (Yahweh), intact.


THE GREAT ‘I AM’

This kind of reminds me of a quote by Muhammad Ali. A certain middle school was the greatest because he went there. So, this establishes greatness by who attended, as opposed to there being anything special about the school in question.

Likewise, there is no ‘great I am’ in Scripture and neither God nor Jesus ever actually said it. In answering Moses’ question, God 1st articulated his eternal nature. (This is why the VOICE translation uses the term ‘eternal’ for god.) There is something lost in the Hebrew to English translation of the indefinite verb of existing, to be. Who Moses is speaking to in Ex 3:14 is eternal, which differentiated him from other known gods of various regions, who were born and died in many cases. However, being eternal is a property of existence, not a personal name.

The Complete Jewish Bible renders the Hebrew as precisely as possible to English to ‘I am/will be what I am/will be.’ But thank God there is the definitive verse 15.

13 Moshe said to God, “Look, when I appear before the people of Isra’el and say to them, ‘The God of your ancestors has sent me to you’; and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what am I to tell them?” 14 God said to Moshe, “Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh [I am/will be what I am/will be],” and added, “Here is what to say to the people of Isra’el: ‘Ehyeh [I Am or I Will Be] has sent me to you.’” 15 God said further to Moshe, “Say this to the people of Isra’el: ‘Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh [Adonai], the God of your fathers, the God of Avraham, the God of Yitz’chak and the God of Ya‘akov, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever; this is how I am to be remembered generation after generation.
Exodus 3:14-15, CJB ​

God explicitly tells Moses his name is Yahweh, this is his name forever, and how he is to he remembered. Trinitarian translators made us forget - or prevented us from ever knowing - God’s hallowed name that Jesus explicitly told us to keep holy.

The Suffering Servant who will redeem many, prophesied by Isaiah has a personal name, Jesus. God has a personal name that is hallowed and is not Jesus but Yahweh. NOTE: Ex 3:15 does not say in 1700 years, I’ll change my name or go by 2 names. And Ex 3:15 certainly does not say God will go by 3 names.


THE NAMELESS HOLY SPIRIT

Who is talking to Moses in Ex 3:15? “God,” in his entirety, in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature. This God has a name and his servant has a different name. This is because they are 2 beings that exist separately. When Jesus taught us to pray in Matthew 6, he was on Earth and God, who we relate to as Father, is in heaven. Separate.

God has characteristics, attributes of existence. One attribute is power and glory beyond our comprehension. However, this power is tempered by his other attributes, namely his loving and merciful spirit. None of God’s attributes constitute a different person. And this explains why his spirit does not have a personal name. Have you ever thought of that before?

• God has a personal name, Yahweh.
• The Suffering Servant, chosen by God (Acts 17:31) has a personal name, Jesus.
• But there is no personal name for God's holy spirit. Even though knowing one's name was so important to Moses and Jesus told us to keep a name holy, the absence of this challenges the claim of (attributes of God being) a personage.

What name do you suppose Jesus was referring to when he said in Mat 6:9, hallowed be thy name? Yahweh, hallowed be his name, is Jesus’ God and is our God just as Jesus says in John 20:17 (with no mention of ascending to a person with no name). The most obvious reason Jesus does not mention this nameless person is because it does not exist as a person. We don't pray TO God's holy spirit but FOR God's attribute of having a holy spirit, right?

 

[Robert Gwin]

This thread was inspired by @Aunty Jane. So I want to give a shut out to her insightful comments in other threads?

The name of man is not Man and the name of god is not God. Both man and god refer to general forms or species of life. Individual men and individual gods have unique personal names, e.g., Aristotle and Zeus. The one true god’s personal name has been removed from the Bible - for whatever motivation - resulting in blurring what is clearly distinct, often rendering his name with the word, capitalized "LORD" with the dozens of lowercase ‘lords’ that are in the Bible, among which Jesus is one. However, the word lord is a title not a name.

God’s personal name is in Scripture some 5,000 times – and was systematically removed. (The NOG translation, Names of God translation, put it right.) Imagine how upset any author would be if you removed his name from his book? I do imagine God is not too happy with this act by his children and it makes a mockery of what Jesus said in Mat 6:9, hallowed be thy name, KJV.

The NLT renders it may your name be kept holy. ‘Keeping it holy’ does not mean removing it entirely. It started off innocent enough in the ancient culture of OT times. So, concerned about violating the commandment to not use the LORD’s name in vain, they prohibited using it at all and made the substitution to 'Adonai.' However, in 21st century America, we will adhere to Scriptural purity, obey Christ in keeping God’s name holy by keeping his name, YHWH (Yahweh), intact.


THE GREAT ‘I AM’

This kind of reminds me of a quote by Muhammad Ali. A certain middle school was the greatest because he went there. So, this establishes greatness by who attended, as opposed to there being anything special about the school in question.

Likewise, there is no ‘great I am’ in Scripture and neither God nor Jesus ever actually said it. In answering Moses’ question, God 1st articulated his eternal nature. (This is why the VOICE translation uses the term ‘eternal’ for god.) There is something lost in the Hebrew to English translation of the indefinite verb of existing, to be. Who Moses is speaking to in Ex 3:14 is eternal, which differentiated him from other known gods of various regions, who were born and died in many cases. However, being eternal is a property of existence, not a personal name.

The Complete Jewish Bible renders the Hebrew as precisely as possible to English to ‘I am/will be what I am/will be.’ But thank God there is the definitive verse 15.

13 Moshe said to God, “Look, when I appear before the people of Isra’el and say to them, ‘The God of your ancestors has sent me to you’; and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what am I to tell them?” 14 God said to Moshe, “Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh [I am/will be what I am/will be],” and added, “Here is what to say to the people of Isra’el: ‘Ehyeh [I Am or I Will Be] has sent me to you.’” 15 God said further to Moshe, “Say this to the people of Isra’el: ‘Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh [Adonai], the God of your fathers, the God of Avraham, the God of Yitz’chak and the God of Ya‘akov, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever; this is how I am to be remembered generation after generation.
Exodus 3:14-15, CJB ​

God explicitly tells Moses his name is Yahweh, this is his name forever, and how he is to he remembered. Trinitarian translators made us forget - or prevented us from ever knowing - God’s hallowed name that Jesus explicitly told us to keep holy.

The Suffering Servant who will redeem many, prophesied by Isaiah has a personal name, Jesus. God has a personal name that is hallowed and is not Jesus but Yahweh. NOTE: Ex 3:15 does not say in 1700 years, I’ll change my name or go by 2 names. And Ex 3:15 certainly does not say God will go by 3 names.


THE NAMELESS HOLY SPIRIT

Who is talking to Moses in Ex 3:15? “God,” in his entirety, in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature. This God has a name and his servant has a different name. This is because they are 2 beings that exist separately. When Jesus taught us to pray in Matthew 6, he was on Earth and God, who we relate to as Father, is in heaven. Separate.

God has characteristics, attributes of existence. One attribute is power and glory beyond our comprehension. However, this power is tempered by his other attributes, namely his loving and merciful spirit. None of God’s attributes constitute a different person. And this explains why his spirit does not have a personal name. Have you ever thought of that before?

• God has a personal name, Yahweh.
• The Suffering Servant, chosen by God (Acts 17:31) has a personal name, Jesus.
• But there is no personal name for God's holy spirit. Even though knowing one's name was so important to Moses and Jesus told us to keep a name holy, the absence of this challenges the claim of (attributes of God being) a personage.

What name do you suppose Jesus was referring to when he said in Mat 6:9, hallowed be thy name? Yahweh, hallowed be his name, is Jesus’ God and is our God just as Jesus says in John 20:17 (with no mention of ascending to a person with no name). The most obvious reason Jesus does not mention this nameless person is because it does not exist as a person. We don't pray TO God's holy spirit but FOR God's attribute of having a holy spirit, right?

Very good post Wrangler, the only thing I would change is the number of times God's name occurs in Scripture, closer to 7k sir. Since most of us here speak and write in English, I would go with the English rendering of His name, Jehovah.

 

[Wrangler]

Since most of us here speak and write in English, I would go with the English rendering of His name, Jehovah.

You know, that's something I never understood. Why are proper nouns, like places and people's name not kept across languages?

I understand the capital of Italy is called in the native language, Roma. Why is it "Rome" in English? Why not Roma in all languages?

The word that came out of her mouth when Mary called for her son was Yeshua. Why is it that we call him a name other than what his mother called him?

I'm perfectly OK with stating the name of God is Adonai, Yahweh, YHWH, or Jehovah, provided it is not applied to the suffering servant whose death saved us all. And thanks for pointing out that god's name occurs 7K times! Amazing how much the word of God was altered to better fit prevailing doctrine, huh?

 

[Robert Gwin]

You know, that's something I never understood. Why are proper nouns, like places and people's name not kept across languages?

I understand the capital of Italy is called in the native language, Roma. Why is it "Rome" in English? Why not Roma in all languages?

The word that came out of her mouth when Mary called for her son was Yeshua. Why is it that we call him a name other than what his mother called him?

I'm perfectly OK with stating the name of God is Adonai, Yahweh, YHWH, or Jehovah, provided it is not applied to the suffering servant whose death saved us all. And thanks for pointing out that god's name occurs 7K times! Amazing how much the word of God was altered to better fit prevailing doctrine, huh?

Adonai is Lord, YHWH is God's name in Hebrew, and Jehovah is God's name in English, and I have been told me that Jehovah is Latin instead of English, and perhaps it is the same in Latin I do not know, but it is definitely Jehovah in English, and every Bible that converts the Divine name into English renders it Jehovah, I am not going to pretend I know English better than they and tell them they are wrong.

What I find interesting Wrangler about the alteration is the fact that Jehovah did not allow His name to be completely removed. The translators of the KJ version of the Bible did their utmost to remove it, but I have to believe Jehovah would not let them as they "overlooked" it 4 times and in it's shortened form at least 5 times as Jah. After His name became well known throughout the earth, He has allowed them to remove the 4, but still I believe all versions still contain Jah in multiple places. I find that extremely interesting as He desires His name to be declared to the ends of the earth Ex 9:16. Who do you believe is behind trying to hide His name, and for what reason? 2 Thes 1:8

 

[amadeus]

Very good post Wrangler, the only thing I would change is the number of times God's name occurs in Scripture, closer to 7k sir. Since most of us here speak and write in English, I would go with the English rendering of His name, Jehovah.

Of course, no matter how times His name it is written in a Book, even the Bible, if His name is not in us and we are not in it, what will it matter to us?

 

[Nancy]

Of course, no matter how times His name it is written in a Book, even the Bible, if His name is not in us and we are not in it, what will it matter to us?

Good to see you on John!

 

[amadeus]

Good to see you on John!

I won't promise to be here often but so long as God wills it, here am I!

 

[Aunty Jane]

You know, that's something I never understood. Why are proper nouns, like places and people's name not kept across languages?

I understand the capital of Italy is called in the native language, Roma. Why is it "Rome" in English? Why not Roma in all languages?

The word that came out of her mouth when Mary called for her son was Yeshua. Why is it that we call him a name other than what his mother called him?

Language is a difficult thing to comprehend.....to hear someone utter things in a language you do not understand is frustrating to say the least, but understanding why we speak different languages in the first place is even more important I think.....

It was God who created those different languages because humans were using their common language to plan out a rebellion against Him only a couple of generations after the flood of Noah’s day. Nimrod, (Noah’s great grandson) is identified as the main culprit...taking a stand in opposition to God.

By confusing their language, Jehovah broke up a plan they had hatched to make a great name for themselves through their own activities......he had told them to move out into the world but they wanted to stay put and create their own empire, so God stepped in and confused their language and forced them to scatter into other parts of the world, not only taking their language, but also taking their godless plans with them. The Tower of Babel was in the process of construction “with its top in the heavens”....but they never got to finish it.

They scattered and established their own cities, empires and cultures and their false deities were worshipped in place of the true God. So, if you examine all the false religions in the world, you will see a common thread of beliefs that they all share. Three are outstanding......belief in a multiplicity of gods, often in threesomes, reflecting Nimrod, his mother Semiramis and the infant Tammuz....from Babylonian mythology.

Also they share belief in ‘life after death’ in some spiritual form....when the Bible clearly states that the dead are not in a conscious condition. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) The idea that all humans have an immortal soul that departs from the body at death is absent from scripture.

There is also the existence of a place of heavenly bliss for some considered worthy, and a fiery hell for others deemed to be wicked. Every culture seems to reflect these common beliefs in one form or another...even Christendom has all adopted them.....and Judaism also to some extent, when none of those things are taught in their scripture, or ours.

So ancient Babylon was the springboard for all the false religious beliefs that are accepted in all parts of the world. It gives us a reason why the Revelation speaks of “Babylon the great” (Revelation 18:4-5).....it is satan’s world empire of false religion....serving his interests because all worship that is not true and directed to Jehovah is false and goes to the devil by default. He is identified as “the god of this world” (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)..blinding people to the truth. We are told to “get out of her” or else share in her punishments.

I'm perfectly OK with stating the name of God is Adonai, Yahweh, YHWH, or Jehovah, provided it is not applied to the suffering servant whose death saved us all. And thanks for pointing out that god's name occurs 7K times! Amazing how much the word of God was altered to better fit prevailing doctrine, huh?

If people would bother to do their research, they would find out a lot of things that satan and his fake “Christianity” do not want revealed. He has an agenda that was revealed by Jesus 2000 years ago in his parable of the “wheat and the weeds”. Unless you can identify the “weeds” you will assume that they are the “wheat”. By their beliefs and conduct, you can plainly see who are following Jesus’ teachings, and who are ignoring what is inconvenient and doing the opposite to what Jesus taught.

God’s name was abandoned by the Jews because they were not following the command concerning “taking God’s name in vain”.....it wasn’t the uttering of God’s name that was in any way “too sacred to be pronounced” because God told them his name and it was to be used forever, as long as it was done reverentially. (Exodus 3:15) The Bible writers had no compunction in using the divine name as it was written almost 7,000 times in his word.

The underlying reason for ceasing to use “the name” (hasham) was because some were making frivolous oaths in Jehovah’s name and failing to honour them. This was bringing reproach on God’s name by using it in a way that brought reproach on him. So instead of punishing the offenders, they simply stopped using God’s name and that was easier than finding and punishing the offenders. When you see Jesus denouncing of the Pharisees, you can understand why he castigated them so severely. Everything they did was offensive to God. (Matthew 23)

 

[Robert Gwin]

Of course, no matter how times His name it is written in a Book, even the Bible, if His name is not in us and we are not in it, what will it matter to us?

I am content with being among those who are called a people for His name Amad. His name is within the pure language for sure Zeph 3:9, and His people hold His name highly Mat 6:9 and make it known throughout the earth Jn 17:26

 

[Wrangler]

The idea that all humans have an immortal soul that departs from the body at death is absent from scripture.

Coincidently, in todays Devotional Reading of John 11, the NRSV study notes said such thinking was a Jewish tradition by the 1st century. As you point out, tradition is not Scripture.

Many rely on to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord. I don’t think it holds up to scrutiny.

 

[Wrangler]

In another thread, a trinitarian asserted YHWH refers to the ‘Godhead.’ What do you think of this?

 

[APAK]

In another thread, a trinitarian asserted YHWH refers to the ‘Godhead.’ What do you think of this?

Not all Bible versions have this word 'Godhead' in it. In the KJV and some others, there are three or four times in either two or three verses that the word Godhead is used from the Middle English word Godhood. It essentially means YHWH's essence or nature, his divinity, of the Father and no other person. KJV and others have it in Acts 17:29, or Romans 1:20, and Col 2:9.

In other translations godhead is replaced by: invisible attributes, his eternal power and divine nature.

For a Trinitarian YHWH means all three of their persons are of the godhead of course.

 

[Wrangler]

Not all Bible versions have this word 'Godhead' in it. ... KJV and others have it in Acts 17:29, or Romans 1:20, and Col 2:9.

Yes but not in the relevant Ex 3:15 under discussion.

It is telling that even in the KJV, Ex 3:15 refers to God in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature - and not the trinitarian made up 'godhead.' The books of the NT you referenced where the distortion took place (of replacing god with 'god head) was written, perhaps 18 centuries after Moses wrote about him speaking to god.

That is intense indoctrination of ones anti-Scriptural belief system. I doubt the victim even realized he is projecting 'godhead' unto Scripture that does not use that term but the monotheist term, 'god.' So convinced is he that the personal name of God is Jesus, he cannot bring himself to reject it even when exposed to an explicit verse that says otherwise.

I suppose this is just another variant of the importance of juxtaposition that we talked about. It is more than a little silly to suppose 'Jill' is a person of the bi-une Being 'Jack' when it is written, Jack and Jill ran up the hill. If Jill were part of Jack, including her name serves no purpose. Obviously, the claim that Jill is part of a bi-une Being is undermined by the very fact that her name is explicitly stated in the text, justaposed with Jack.

The same is true in many verses in Scripture. For instance, if Jesus were God, what purpose does Rev 1:1 serve in telling us that God gave Jesus the revelation? Can't they see the substitutions in Scripture for God includes YHWH or Father, where all 3 hallowed names are juxtaposed with Jesus, Son, Anointed, servant, etc? No. The answer is no. They do not have eyes to see it - even though it is explicitly written in Scripture many, many times.

 

[APAK]

Yes but not in the relevant Ex 3:15 under discussion.

It is telling that even in the KJV, Ex 3:15 refers to God in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature - and not the trinitarian made up 'godhead.' The books of the NT you referenced where the distortion took place (of replacing god with 'god head) was written, perhaps 18 centuries after Moses wrote about him speaking to god.

That is intense indoctrination of ones anti-Scriptural belief system. I doubt the victim even realized he is projecting 'godhead' unto Scripture that does not use that term but the monotheist term, 'god.' So convinced is he that the personal name of God is Jesus, he cannot bring himself to reject it even when exposed to an explicit verse that says otherwise.

I suppose this is just another variant of the importance of juxtaposition that we talked about. It is more than a little silly to suppose 'Jill' is a person of the bi-une Being 'Jack' when it is written, Jack and Jill ran up the hill. If Jill were part of Jack, including her name serves no purpose. Obviously, the claim that Jill is part of a bi-une Being is undermined by the very fact that her name is explicitly stated in the text, justaposed with Jack.

The same is true in many verses in Scripture. For instance, if Jesus were God, what purpose does Rev 1:1 serve in telling us that God gave Jesus the revelation? Can't they see the substitutions in Scripture for God includes YHWH or Father, where all 3 hallowed names are juxtaposed with Jesus, Son, Anointed, servant, etc? No. The answer is no. They do not have eyes to see it - even though it is explicitly written in Scripture many, many times.

The same folks will also have a 'get out of' scripture and their 'man made doctrine' free cards. If you say the Father is greater that the Son, then and now, as scripture describes in several ways, they will just place their god person role/position card in front of you and say the Father (using his divine nature) had a higher position that the Son (using his human nature) in these roles and this neutralizes scripture and eliminates the true greatness of the one true God, the Father every time. They don't seem to get it, the Father is still greater that the Son today! And they will say that they are now equal in every way except for roles, in heaven, as both are divine unmade from the same mythical cloth. And that the human spirit along with his flesh got destroyed at his death. I'm sure his immortal spirit and immortal body is still of the same old substance of a human person today as it was when he walked the earth.

 

[Wrangler]

unmade

Sons are made.

To invoke the notion of an unmade son is to destroy the concept of what it means to be a son. My father, dressed up in the form of Howdy Doody, does not a son make. The Father incarnate is still not a son.

They want you to accept when the say "son" they mean the Father incarnate AS IF location determines your relationship with yourself. On the moon, I am me. But on Jupiter, I am my own Father. Huh?

Another pivot is the fact that the Bible alludes to many sons of God. Therefore, it is folly to speak of "THE" son of God as if it were exclusive. Just because my older brother graduated (into an incorruptible body) does not shift him from belonging to my generation to belonging to the generation who gave him that body. Another pivot, God has no body but is spirit.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Coincidently, in todays Devotional Reading of John 11, the NRSV study notes said such thinking was a Jewish tradition by the 1st century. As you point out, tradition is not Scripture.

The fact that this refusal to utter “the name” violated God’s instruction to Moses in Exodus 3:15, they assume was their own decision, but in reality, as a nation to whom the Father (YHWH) was going to send their promised Messiah, he knew in advance that this nation was going to do what the scriptures had foretold....but there was no healing for that nation. Only a remnant would be saved....and that is what we see.
Peter told them what God was going to do....

Acts 15:14.....”Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.”
The people worthy to carry God’s precious name would now be taken from the Gentile nations....those who would join with the Jewish Christians and follow the teachings of his Christ.

Many rely on to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord. I don’t think it holds up to scrutiny.

If we understand what that actually means we will see that this pertains only to the elect.
Being “absent from the body” means that these ones have died in their flesh and have received a spiritual resurrection in order to dwell in heaven in the presence of God....which is something that mere mortals cannot do. This is what they looked forward to...leaving their sinful flesh and being present with their Lord, ready to collectively serve their God with him in bringing redeemed mankind back to the paradise that Adam lost for them. It was never God’s intention to take humans to heaven originally. No mention was ever made to Adam that heaven or hell were placed before him as opposite destinations.
Man was made to live on this carefully prepared planet forever, to enjoy its wonders and to take care of it and maintain it as God intended. God will finish what he started. (Isaiah 55:11)

In another thread, a trinitarian asserted YHWH refers to the ‘Godhead.’ What do you think of this?

There is no such word in scripture. The word “theos” (god) in the Bible doesn’t mean in Greek what it does to most English Bible readers. The Greeks were polytheists and all of their gods had names, but the God of the Jews was then nameless, hence the word “theos” was a broad term that could mean any god or divinely authorised person. Jesus could fit that description as did the human judges in Israel whom Jehovah himself called “gods” because they were acting as his representatives. The son of God was never identified as Jehovah.

So trying to make “one God” into three gods (“God the Father”, “God the son” and “God the Holy Spirit”) never came from scripture, but from pagan ideas about triads, which were nothing new in the pagan world.....but not something ever spoken about in our scripture. “God the Father” was fully recognised, but the others never rated a mention because they never existed as “God”.
The apostles knew who their God was...and it wasn’t Jesus. (2 Corinthians 8:5-6)