Harmonized Seals, Trumpets, Bowls

[Timtofly]

4th and 5th horsemen given reign over 1/4 of the earth. North and South America make up 28% of the landmass of the earth. So it is possible that the Americas are what is indicated.

Try harmonizing the 3 different plagues (seals, trumps, bowls) and see what you come up with. The earthquake references have already been discussed at length in this post.

The 5th and 6th Seal is the Second Coming and rapture of the church from heavens perspective.

The robes of white being put on, is the glorification process of the entire church.

The 4th Seal is the famine and attack of wild animals that coincide with the attack on Jerusalem per Zechariah 14.

25% of the earth claim to be Christians as well.

 

[Davy]

Has anyone else harmonized the seals, trumps and bowls?

The idea is there is only one period of tribulation but because the world is so large it is seen from 3 different vantage points. (my opinion... Americas, Israel and allies, Enemies of Israel)

How many times is there an earthquake like none other seen before of after? 3 times? or is the 6th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl describing the same event?

Also we like to say we will see the endtimes happen because it takes time. The scroll can't be opened even a little until all 7 seals are removed. It can happen all at once. All the trumpets can blow in quick succession and the effects felt for the next 7 years. Likewise the bowl judgements.

Discussion Welcome. Disagree with biblical references.

The latter part of the 6th Seal (and 7th Seal), the 7th Trumpet, and the 7th Vial, are all about the same events of the last day of this present world, "day of the Lord" timing when Jesus returns. So you got that part correct, mostly (the untimely figs metaphor at the first part of the 6th Seal is actually linked to the Revelation 12:7-9 event, and thus the coming "great tribulation" timing).

The 7 Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse are the same Seals of Revelation 6. That reveals there's really only 7 Signs of the end, that the signs in Revelation are just branch explanations of those same 7 Signs (i.e., the 7 Seals are one branch, the 7 Trumpets are another branch, and the 7 Vials are another branch). The last Sign Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse was that of His future return to gather His Church. So it shouldn't be difficult to figure out in Revelation that events pointing to His future return is the last Sign.

 

[David Boyer]

The 5th and 6th Seal is the Second Coming and rapture of the church from heavens perspective.

The robes of white being put on, is the glorification process of the entire church.

The 4th Seal is the famine and attack of wild animals that coincide with the attack on Jerusalem per Zechariah 14.

25% of the earth claim to be Christians as well.

Glorification of the entire Church? But it says to wait until the rest of the brethren are killed. (Rev 6:11) So not the entire Church, by definition.
Fourth seal is the 4th and 5th riders. And there is also war and death, not just famine and wild animals. So that kind of needs to be squeezed in.
25% claiming to be Christian is a neat idea. But the Greek says that earth means landmass not peoples. (Rev 6:8)

I can see where your ideas are appealing to the suffering adverse. But we are promised to be killed and abused by the world. So no easy escape.

 

[Timtofly]

Glorification of the entire Church? But it says to wait until the rest of the brethren are killed. (Rev 6:11) So not the entire Church, by definition.
Fourth seal is the 4th and 5th riders. And there is also war and death, not just famine and wild animals. So that kind of needs to be squeezed in.
25% claiming to be Christian is a neat idea. But the Greek says that earth means landmass not peoples. (Rev 6:8)

I can see where your ideas are appealing to the suffering adverse. But we are promised to be killed and abused by the world. So no easy escape.

The Promise to be killed and abused started with Stephen and has been non stop since Pentecost. That is not an end time phenomenon.

How do you kill a landmass? Sink it into the ocean? And those living on that landmass are miraculously not killed?


"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

So war, famine, death, and animals are going to annihilate two continents and they will no longer be land but covered over with water, so they no longer exist as land? Since we are not talking about life, but the land itself, no longer existing as continents.

How is that any different than all continents coming together as one continent. It is still destroying the individual make up of those two continents. They will no longer self identify as North and South America.

You attempt to refute "earth" is talking about population. However, war, famine, death, and wild animals, clearly implies these things are against the population and not fighting the landmass, itself into total annihilation.

How would causing such a geographical change of continents and all the mountain ranges be a comfort to those currently suffering affliction? The miracle will be preserving life when all this geological change happens.

Amil claim all is burned up into a crisp at the Second Coming, not just moving the furniture around.

Yes the church is one set. The rest of the redeemed are the firstfruits of the final harvest. Like Noah they come out on the otherside to populate the earth for 1,000 years. The church does not populate nor live on the earth during the Millennium. The church is in Paradise until the New Jerusalem comes down in the NHNE.

The final harvest is after the Second Coming. A harvest is done from those alive, not physically dead people in sheol. The final harvest is not the church. The last 1992 years has been the church harvest. Brethren refers to all of Adam's redeemed flesh. The OT redeemed were Brethren along with the NT church. They all are named in the Lamb's book of life.

Just like the OT redeemed did not live again on earth during the last 1992 years, the church glorified will not live on earth during the last 1,000 years. Jesus as King will personally reign over those who are born in the Millennium Kingdom.

By the time all is accomplished and the 7th Trumpet stops, there will be one continent and no mountain ranges to divide this final kingdom. There will be nations, but no nation will have an excuse not to come to Jerusalem on a yearly basis.

 

[David Boyer]

The Promise to be killed and abused started with Stephen and has been non stop since Pentecost. That is not an end time phenomenon.

How do you kill a landmass? Sink it into the ocean? And those living on that landmass are miraculously not killed?


"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

So war, famine, death, and animals are going to annihilate two continents and they will no longer be land but covered over with water, so they no longer exist as land? Since we are not talking about life, but the land itself, no longer existing as continents.

How is that any different than all continents coming together as one continent. It is still destroying the individual make up of those two continents. They will no longer self identify as North and South America.

You attempt to refute "earth" is talking about population. However, war, famine, death, and wild animals, clearly implies these things are against the population and not fighting the landmass, itself into total annihilation.

How would causing such a geographical change of continents and all the mountain ranges be a comfort to those currently suffering affliction? The miracle will be preserving life when all this geological change happens.

Amil claim all is burned up into a crisp at the Second Coming, not just moving the furniture around.

Yes the church is one set. The rest of the redeemed are the firstfruits of the final harvest. Like Noah they come out on the otherside to populate the earth for 1,000 years. The church does not populate nor live on the earth during the Millennium. The church is in Paradise until the New Jerusalem comes down in the NHNE.

The final harvest is after the Second Coming. A harvest is done from those alive, not physically dead people in sheol. The final harvest is not the church. The last 1992 years has been the church harvest. Brethren refers to all of Adam's redeemed flesh. The OT redeemed were Brethren along with the NT church. They all are named in the Lamb's book of life.

Just like the OT redeemed did not live again on earth during the last 1992 years, the church glorified will not live on earth during the last 1,000 years. Jesus as King will personally reign over those who are born in the Millennium Kingdom.

By the time all is accomplished and the 7th Trumpet stops, there will be one continent and no mountain ranges to divide this final kingdom. There will be nations, but no nation will have an excuse not to come to Jerusalem on a yearly basis.

Have you taken and English course or read any books.
"They were give power over 1/4 of the earth", so you agree that this is NOT a worldwide phenomenon. So... they have a geographically contained area of influence, and in that area the people are killed and whatnot. Basic English writing style.
I agree that fighting landmasses is a silly idea, but you are the one that brought it into the discussion. Misunderstandings happen.

As for the rest of the ramble... Sources required. Simple statements with Revelation verses to back them up. That was a requirement of the OP.
Without references I would have to disagree with everything else you have said. No offence... I just totally disagree.

 

[Timtofly]

Have you taken and English course or read any books.
"They were give power over 1/4 of the earth", so you agree that this is NOT a worldwide phenomenon. So... they have a geographically contained area of influence, and in that area the people are killed and whatnot. Basic English writing style.
I agree that fighting landmasses is a silly idea, but you are the one that brought it into the discussion. Misunderstandings happen.

As for the rest of the ramble... Sources required. Simple statements with Revelation verses to back them up. That was a requirement of the OP.
Without references I would have to disagree with everything else you have said. No offence... I just totally disagree.

You claimed no escape, and we had to suffer and die. Why do you say that, in regards to the Seals?

The only Second Coming is the 5th and 6th Seal.

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Glorification.

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Matches the Second Coming of Matthew 24, and the sign of the Son of Man.

There is no harmonizing the Trumpets, Thunders, or bowels as Jesus is on the earth from the 6th Seal until the 7th Trumpet.

 

[David Boyer]

You claimed no escape, and we had to suffer and die. Why do you say that, in regards to the Seals?

The only Second Coming is the 5th and 6th Seal.

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Glorification.

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Matches the Second Coming of Matthew 24, and the sign of the Son of Man.

There is no harmonizing the Trumpets, Thunders, or bowels as Jesus is on the earth from the 6th Seal until the 7th Trumpet.

Sorry. Nope. I can't see that at all. I gave some rebuttals, but you didn't actually address them.

Glorified, but kept under the altar until the rest of the brethren are killed. (Rev 6:11) Then the next time we see them is Rev 20:4-5 (the first resurrection) Long pause for such an event. The book could have been much shorter in your version.

I have shown my harmonization of the Trumpets and Bowls. T2+B2 Blood Seas, T3+B3 Blood Freshwater, T4+B5 Darkness (atmospheric event probably) and S6+T7+B7 Earthquake (rather large)

Where in Revelation is Christ on earth? Is it referenced before Rev 20:4. Of course it doesn't say Christ is on earth, but context definitely points that way.

Just a few thoughts before bed. Night.

 

[Timtofly]

Sorry. Nope. I can't see that at all. I gave some rebuttals, but you didn't actually address them.

Glorified, but kept under the altar until the rest of the brethren are killed. (Rev 6:11) Then the next time we see them is Rev 20:4-5 (the first resurrection) Long pause for such an event. The book could have been much shorter in your version.

I have shown my harmonization of the Trumpets and Bowls. T2+B2 Blood Seas, T3+B3 Blood Freshwater, T4+B5 Darkness (atmospheric event probably) and S6+T7+B7 Earthquake (rather large)

Where in Revelation is Christ on earth? Is it referenced before Rev 20:4. Of course it doesn't say Christ is on earth, but context definitely points that way.

Just a few thoughts before bed. Night.

Kept under the alter?

Do you think you can un-redeem yourself?

This is symbolic of being covered by the Atonement. Those first century redeemed were used to alter lingo. Obviously they all literally did not hang out under their synagogue's alter.

Today we use "saved by faith". What do you think they are waiting for?

"their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

This is symbolic of shedding Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

The word martyr is not found. Thought you, out of any poster, would find interpreting the 5th Seal as literally about tribulation and martyrdom, as being wrong. Neither are mentioned any where in the Seals.

Of course Jesus as King is on earth. Do you think these people on earth are smarter than the average clueless Christian? This is not them guessing:

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

How do all these godless humans know about the face of God and looking at that face? How do they know the Lamb is there physically with them? Because they can see the GWT and they can see the Lamb on the earth. They are yelling out about what they can literally see.

The Lamb is the symbolic term for King Jesus to go along with the alter lingo. People on earth will definitely have their spiritual eyesight opened, so in a few days after the Second Coming, they can be totally deceived by Satan. Yet they will have no excuse about what is soon going to happen on earth.

 

[David Boyer]

Kept under the alter?

Do you think you can un-redeem yourself?

This is symbolic of being covered by the Atonement. Those first century redeemed were used to alter lingo. Obviously they all literally did not hang out under their synagogue's alter.

Today we use "saved by faith". What do you think they are waiting for?

"their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

This is symbolic of shedding Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

The word martyr is not found. Thought you, out of any poster, would find interpreting the 5th Seal as literally about tribulation and martyrdom, as being wrong. Neither are mentioned any where in the Seals.

Of course Jesus as King is on earth. Do you think these people on earth are smarter than the average clueless Christian? This is not them guessing:

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

How do all these godless humans know about the face of God and looking at that face? How do they know the Lamb is there physically with them? Because they can see the GWT and they can see the Lamb on the earth. They are yelling out about what they can literally see.

The Lamb is the symbolic term for King Jesus to go along with the alter lingo. People on earth will definitely have their spiritual eyesight opened, so in a few days after the Second Coming, they can be totally deceived by Satan. Yet they will have no excuse about what is soon going to happen on earth.

Where in the text of Revelation does it say it is symbolic? All other symbolic things get explained as symbols.

If some one is "slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held" would be a very nice definition of a martyr. How would you define martyr if not someone who is killed "because of the word of God, and of the testimony that they held"?

Sorry, I don't see that as anything approaching a proof text of Christ on Earth vs a recognition that Christ is sovereign and is dishing it out.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Has anyone else harmonized the seals, trumps and bowls?

Yes, it is difficult. Reading the events in order doesn't seem to make sense. After the Seals it seems like everything is already destroyed and the Trumpets like the last warnings before the wrath of the Bowls come. I have pondered this for 25 years. Many scholars also agree that Revelation is not all in chronological order. We the Trumpets and Bowls and what each ine represents, but it is not like an action has to be completed before the next one happens.. The Trumpets could be blown rapidly but the events overlap and take time to develop.. God is giving us different vantage points, but not locations, just perceptions.
Jack Hayford's book "Equake", explain that the SevenTrumpets and Seven Bowls events fall within the Seals and that the Seals are the orders and the Trumpets and the Bowls, the actions. He brought to my attention several events that are the same event.
Rev. 6:12 & Rev. 16:18 is the same massive worldwide earthquake ( which happens to be the key to unlock the mystery of Revelation and the title is his book. God showed John a series if visins that go back and forth. Look at Rev.7 and Rev. 14. They both discuss the 144k Jews, who are male virgins. You get different vantage points and information in two chapters that only appear to be separated with lots of time and events in between. Rev. 12 goes back in history and talks about Jesus birth.
For a long time I used to think of Revelatio as a transparent sphere, with events on the outside and inside. And as you turn the sphere you see different perspectives, events overlapping, accumulating and how they relate to eachother. This why there are so many interpretations, it is multi-dimenaional. We usually look at history in a lienear way. If we were in heaven, we would see these events different. God had to show us events, one at a time, to understand. It doesn't mean that many are not happening simultaneously.But humans struggle with their finite ways of understanding.
Actually I think we can see our resurrection in two places: Rev. 7:9 and Rev. 11:15. Same event, different vantage point.
Let me throw another wrench in there. I think the four horsemen alhave already been released since the beginning of this Pandemic. The world has been under this dark power and control like never before in history. This is the final One World Government that has been in the works for decades. Global Warming/ Climate Change is a disguise for global governance. It seems they took the opportunity to use a virus to begin their escapade. No worries, the Antichrist only has 3 1/2 yeas to do His dirty work, then Jesus returns and ends it.
Enough for now.

 

[David Boyer]

Yes, it is dufficult. Reading the events in order doesn't seem to make sense. After the Seals it seems like everything is already destroyed and the Trumpets like the last warnings before the wrath of the Bowls come. I have pondered this for 25 years. Many scholars also agree that Revelation is not all in chronological order. We the Trumpets and Bowls and what each ine represents, but it is not like an action has to be completed before the next one happens.. The Trumpets could be blown rapidly but the events overlap and take time to develop.. God is giving us different vantage points, but not locations, just perceptions.
Jack Hayford's book "Equake", explain that the SevenTrumpets and Seven Bowls events fall within the Seals and that the Seals are the orders and the Trumpets and the Bowls, the actions. He brought to my attention several events that are the same event.
Rev. 6:12 & Rev. 16:18 is the same massive worldwide earthquake ( which happens to be the key to unlock the mystery of Revelation and the title is his book. God showed John a series if visins that go back and forth. Look at Rev.7 and Rev. 14. They both discuss the 144k Jews, who are male virgins. You get different vantage points and information in two chapters that only appear to be separated with lots of time and events in between. Rev. 12 goes back in history and talks about Jesus birth.
For a long time I used to think of Revelatio as a transparent sphere, with events on the outside and inside. And as you turn the sphere you see different perspectives, events overlapping, accumulating and how they relate to eachother. This why there are so many interpretations, it is multi-dimenaional. We usually look at history in a lienear way. If we were in heaven, we would see these events different. God had to show us events, one at a time, to understand. It doesn't mean that many are not happening simultaneously.But humans struggle with their finite ways of understanding.
Actually I think we can see our resurrection in two places: Rev. 7:9 and Rev. 11:15. Same event, different vantage point.
Let me throw another wrench in there. I think the four horsemen alhave already been released since the beginning of this Pandemic. The world has been under this dark power and control like never before in history. This is the final One World Government that has been in the works for decades. Global Warming/ Climate Change is a disguise for global governance. It seems they took the opportunity to use a virus to begin their escapade. No worries, the Antichrist only has 3 1/2 yeas to do His dirty work, then Jesus returns and ends it.
Enough for now.

A little different that my view... but I like it.
I see Revelation as a director having been given the outline of the movie script. Not every detail, but the main themes and brushstrokes are there. The exact who, what, where... not always included, but the shape is very evident. (I find that this description is easier for some people to grasp, not a perfect description, but workable)

I concur.

ps are you sure that the 144k are male? The Greek word for "men" in Rev 14:4 is anthropos and it is gender neutral. Just throwing that in because it gets a rise out of people. Please don't start a fight over it. I just don't like definitive statements without challenge.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

A little different that my view... but I like it.
I see Revelation as a director having been given the outline of the movie script. Not every detail, but the main themes and brushstrokes are there. The exact who, what, where... not always included, but the shape is very evident. (I find that this description is easier for some people to grasp, not a perfect description, but workable)

I concur.

ps are you sure that the 144k are male? The Greek word for "men" in Rev 14:4 is anthropos and it is gender neutral. Just throwing that in because it gets a rise out of people. Please don't start a fight over it. I just don't like definitive statements without challenge.

These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

"Not defiled with woman", means they did not have sex with them.
"the ones who follow the Lamb" implies also men. God throughout history chose men to be kings, prophets, Apostles, Priest and pastors, warriors. Would expect Him to change and choose 144k women? I do believe that there will be as many Jewish virgins for them to later marry with, if that is God's purpose for them to repopulate the world. ?

 

[David Boyer]

These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

"Not defiled with woman", means they did not have sex with them.
"the ones who follow the Lamb" implies also men. God throughout history chose men to be kings, prophets, Apostles, Priest and pastors, warriors. Would expect Him to change and choose 144k women? I do believe that there will be as many Jewish virgins for them to later marry with, if that is God's purpose for them to repopulate the world. ?

I did say not to start a fight, please.

But so long as they are not lesbian then women are also not defiled by women.
What about Mary and Martha? I dare say they were viewed as disciples by Jesus if not society.
And of course... Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

I didn't say that they have to be females, just that the text does not support the male only position.
"redeemed from among men" the men in that statement is gender neutral. Simply means human.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I did say not to start a fight, please.

Fight? Just stating facts about Biblical history.
God chose men for a purpose and women for whatever He equipped them to do. Nothing here is being said is derogatory or demeaning against beautiful and lovely women whom we could not do without! God has given them a wonderful purpose. But they are not the 144k male virgins chosen from the 12 tribes.

What about Mary and Martha? I dare say they were viewed as disciples by Jesus if not society.

Jesus chose 12 men to teach, to disciple. Disciple means student and I am sure Mary and Martha were students, but the responsibility for the Apostles to spread the gospels throughout the world went to men.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Spiritually that is true. But we have earthly roles that God has given humanity. God has created us differently, (wired us differently), mentally, physically, and has equipped us with spiritual gifts differently for His purpose.

 

[David Boyer]

Fight? Just stating facts about Biblical history.
God chose men for a purpose and women for whatever He equipped them to do. Nothing here is being said is derogatory or demeaning against beautiful and lovely women whom we could not do without! God has given them a wonderful purpose. But they are not the 144k male virgins chosen from the 12 tribes.

Jesus chose 12 men to teach, to disciple. Disciple means student and I am sure Mary and Martha were students, but the responsibility for the Apostles to spread the gospels throughout the world went to men.

Spiritually that is true. But we have earthly roles that God has given humanity. God has created us differently, (wired us differently), mentally, physically, and has equipped us with spiritual gifts differently for His purpose.

WHERE does it say MALE virgins? I've explained the Greek to you but I guess you don't understand. That's okay I guess.

I think your sexism is showing. I just point out that the Bible does not say that the 144k are male.

 

[marks]

Actually the syntax does support that the 144,000 are all men. All the pronouns in both passages are masculine, none are neuter. Feminine words used in those passages are still paired with masculine pronouns. These are men.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Much love!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

WHERE does it say MALE virgins? I've explained the Greek to you but I guess you don't understand. That's okay I guess.

I think your sexism is showing. I just point out that the Bible does not say that the 144k are male.

I already pointed that out. If you can't discern the meaning, then keep whatever you think you have. It doesn't matter, Jesus will explain all that you had wrong latter!
These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
>>> The underlined implies males. "Among men" means, male - didn't you know? Wow! Sexist? At least I know the difference. My wife does too!

 

[David Boyer]

I already pointed that out. If you can't discern the meaning, then keep whatever you think you have. It doesn't matter, Jesus will explain all that you had wrong latter!
These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
>>> The underlined implies males. "Among men" means, male - didn't you know? Wow! Sexist? At least I know the difference. My wife does too!

The "among men" would read "among humans" in the Greek.
And "not defiled with women" also applies to non-lesbian women... oh and gay men (if you want to go there).

The virgin part and gay men would be OK then with you so long as they didn't have penetrative sex.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The virgin part and gay men would be OK then with you so long as they didn't have penetrative sex.

Well, again you misrepresent me and misunderstand me and apparently the Bible. According to Romans 1:26, 27 gays will never enter heaven. Why would consider this warped misunderstanding. I think the question asked in my last post a minute ago will answer it. I'm done.