Have the leadership of the church become pawns of the Devil?

[marksman]

I agree with you and have seen this time and time again where I minister. Actually, all the stuff tha tthe western church has tends to be a distraction.

Justin, can I take up this comment of yours. How many church leaderships would be game to sit down and ask themselves the question "those things that we do, how much of it actually focuses people's attention on developing their relationship with the Lord or enable them to meet with the Lord"

Some comments would suggest that is the last thing that happens.

"Nice sermon minister." (translation - not much you can do with it).

"Lively meeting" (translation - plenty of fluff but not much substance).

"I had a really nice time this morning" (translation - that's my duty done for the week).

"I haven't heard that before" (translation - I usually sleep through the sermon).

"Nice sermon for a beginner" ( translation - has got a lot to learn).

"I have heard all this before" (translation - same old...).

"Awe inspiring" (translation - no idea what he was talking about).

"Full of exegesis" (translation - it was all gobbledegook to me).

"Definitely people centred" (translation - everything revolves around the minister)

"This church suits me" (translation - I can avoid commitment).

"Great ministry team" (translation - I am getting good value for my money).

OR.....

"if we keep going like this, we are going to have revival."

OR.....

"I felt as though God was in this place"

OR.....

"Was it my imagination but I felt the Holy Spirit in a big way this morning."

OR.....

"I can't get enough of God's presence like we had this morning."

I think we have to strip away all the paraphernalia, fluff and orchestration to get into the nitty gritty of God's presence and power, without which we have a form of religion but deny the power of it and....most importantly it stops us from operating with the cruise control in charge.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear M,

Well said mark. I think you really encapsulated the state of things in many churches. To be honest I think that congregations get the leaders they deserve. It is not like those who sit under leaders who are not really called of God are a lot more open to the moving of the Holy Spirit than those that lead them.

I think the value in realizing that things are not as they should be is that we should take action to change them. However, how is this to be done? How do we change the status quo? This to me is the central question that must be addressed if we are to move forward in the body of Christ.

Historically speaking, at least from what I read of church history, the restoration of truth is what changes the church. Many times the change that God brings through His Spirit challenges established church error and eventually overcomes the status quo through many people leaving and forming a new belief group. This is often times not a function of rebellion but rather a result of the inability or unwillingness of people to move forward when God is moving.

I believe we should be expecting God to do new and wonderful things in this day and age. Many believe we are at the end of the church age and think God will start dealing directly with His chosen people. If that is true we should not expect, much less demand, that things will continue on the way they have since the time of our fathers. It is not a time to circle the wagons but to be daring and take the battle to the enemy. We must be men and women of action for when all is said and done it is what is do that makes the difference.

 

[marksman]

Historically speaking, at least from what I read of church history, the restoration of truth is what changes the church. Many times the change that God brings through His Spirit challenges established church error and eventually overcomes the status quo through many people leaving and forming a new belief group. This is often times not a function of rebellion but rather a result of the inability or unwillingness of people to move forward when God is moving.

I love church history and have studied it continuously for the last 10 years and what you say is spot on.

I was living in the UK in the 60s when the Spirit of God gave the historical churches a revelation of the person and work of the Holy Spirit. Many rejected it but many more embraced it and as a result the power and gifts of the Spirit came alive in these churches. I was part of a church that embraced it.

Many of those who rejected it lost vital members as the move of God could not be suppressed or contained so many new expressions of church came about as they left and started in most cases in the home and moved out from there.

I remember monthly Saturday night "rallies" as they were known as where the ministry was shared by the Baptists, Brethren, Anglican, Catholics, Methodists, Apostolic, Pentecostal, Restoration (as the new churches were known as) etc. Definitely a case of all one in Christ Jesus.

In addition, national get togethers for all and sundry at camps and holiday parks like Butlins drew upwards of 20,000 people for a week of united praise and teaching.

​This made it very clear to me that you can do things God's way or your way. If you choose your own way, God won't interfere. He will leave the building (if he ever was there in the first place) and leave you to your own devices, having a form of religion but denying the power of it.

Do it God's way and anything can happen and it does. It will mean letting the Holy Spirit run the show and that is one of the reasons why churches won't let him. They want to have the control and won't relinquish it to the boss in case he makes some mistakes which the church never does because everything is done decently and in order (read boring).

I have just been reading a magazine of a missional house church movement and it is very evident from one report that God is bypassing religion and building vibrant relational local fellowships that is reproducing itself all the time.

In one area they started 48 new churches.

I have read a report of a church in India with over 100,000 people being ministered to and they all meet in homes. Just think how much money they save not spending it on fancy buildings.

All this against the backdrop of mega churches going to the wall because they can't keep up their mortgage payments on over the top real estate.

 

[teamventure]

I love church history and have studied it continuously for the last 10 years and what you say is spot on.

I was living in the UK in the 60s when the Spirit of God gave the historical churches a revelation of the person and work of the Holy Spirit. Many rejected it but many more embraced it and as a result the power and gifts of the Spirit came alive in these churches. I was part of a church that embraced it.

Many of those who rejected it lost vital members as the move of God could not be suppressed or contained so many new expressions of church came about as they left and started in most cases in the home and moved out from there.

I remember monthly Saturday night "rallies" as they were known as where the ministry was shared by the Baptists, Brethren, Anglican, Catholics, Methodists, Apostolic, Pentecostal, Restoration (as the new churches were known as) etc. Definitely a case of all one in Christ Jesus.

In addition, national get togethers for all and sundry at camps and holiday parks like Butlins drew upwards of 20,000 people for a week of united praise and teaching.

​This made it very clear to me that you can do things God's way or your way. If you choose your own way, God won't interfere. He will leave the building (if he ever was there in the first place) and leave you to your own devices, having a form of religion but denying the power of it.

Do it God's way and anything can happen and it does. It will mean letting the Holy Spirit run the show and that is one of the reasons why churches won't let him. They want to have the control and won't relinquish it to the boss in case he makes some mistakes which the church never does because everything is done decently and in order (read boring).

I have just been reading a magazine of a missional house church movement and it is very evident from one report that God is bypassing religion and building vibrant relational local fellowships that is reproducing itself all the time.

In one area they started 48 new churches.

I have read a report of a church in India with over 100,000 people being ministered to and they all meet in homes. Just think how much money they save not spending it on fancy buildings.

All this against the backdrop of mega churches going to the wall because they can't keep up their mortgage payments on over the top real estate.

huge red flags go up in your post: "Do it God's way and anything can happen and it does. It will mean letting the Holy Spirit run the show and that is one of the reasons why churches won't let him. They want to have the control and won't relinquish it to the boss in case he makes some mistakes which the church never does because everything is done decently and in order (read boring."

in 1st Cor 14:31-33 it is instructed to the church to have orderly services. God is not the author of disorder or confusion.
in verse 31 it says when sharing a word for each person to take turns in an orderly fashion.

that doesn't sound like anything can happen. a service is supposed to be controlled like instructed in the verses provided.
God does things decently and Satan does things out of order. open your eyes, you're following Satan.
i pretty much shot down your whole theory in a couple verses.

i'm sure you've heard 1 Cor 14:33 many times, but stop and think about the verses before it for a minute.
if a church service is supposed to be so orderly that people are to take turns speaking in an orderly fashion, then off the wall
experiences and manifestations are obviously way out of line.

 

[marksman]

God does things decently and Satan does things out of order. open your eyes, you're following Satan.
i pretty much shot down your whole theory in a couple verses.

A few questions for you. You believe that if a church follows the leading of the Spirit and prays for the sick to be healed and the demon possessed to be set free, they are following Satan?

I assume that in talking about 1 Corinthians 14 as your guide, your church does what is taught there, so tell me...

How do you conduct your meetings to accommodate the speaking in languages which the passage says not to forbid?

How do you receive and give prophecy as we are told to seek it eagerly?

When and how do you sing with the Spirit and when do you sing with the mind?

Who usually has a psalm, a prophecy, a teaching, a language, a revelation or an interpretation?

Women I assume have to keep silent and not take part in the meeting?

How do you do all these things decently and in order? Could you give me a sample of a typical meeting.

i'm sure you've heard 1 Cor 14:33 many times, but stop and think about the verses before it for a minute. if a church service is supposed to be so orderly that people are to take turns speaking in an orderly fashion, then off the wall experiences and manifestations are obviously way out of line.

What constitutes what is decently and in order and what is as you say, off the wall experiences and manifestations? (your words not mine).

 

[teamventure]

to answer your first question, obviously not. but that's not all that the signs and wonders movement does.
so answer me this then; are you part of the signs and wonders movement?


waiting for your reply in the emphasis on the word thread.

 

[marksman]

to answer your first question, obviously not.

Why then did you say I was following satan because I am used in the supernatural?

but that's not all that the signs and wonders movement does.

What else does it do?

so answer me this then; are you part of the signs and wonders movement?

I will be able to answer that when I know what your answer is to the previous question.

 

[Michael*McEvan]

Satan is the accuser of the brethren. Why so quick to accuse here? The devil absolutely hates for God to be given any room to move in a 'church' service and will fight tooth and nail to keep any of the spiritual gifts from being in operation when the brethren gather together. A favorite tactic of his is to use fear, especially fear of the loss of order to quench any movement towards the type of freedom that allows for everyone to have a part in the service. Obedient saints who seek to align with this instruction as Paul tries to lay out throughout the 12-14th chapters in I Cor, must do so by faith, trusting in God,and not leaning on their own understanding,this is why we read about the gift of discerning of spirits and administrations included within the spectrum of the spiritual gifts so outlined in these chapters. These chapters become a proven precedent, yes, an inarguable precedent widely accepted as what that went on in their gatherings.
It is our faith that pleases God ,we are not given a spirit of fear,but of power,love and a sound mind. Yes, God has provided the way to have powerful order in the love gatherings of the saints, with various times made available for the diverse spiritual gifts to be in operation or we would not be made aware of this type of holy supernatural phenomenon occurring during their services.We are being shown that this is the norm and to be expected. Time to worry comes when an outward expression of God moving in the midst of His people is not happening. Those who condemn forbidding the practice of allowing God room to move within the gathering of the saints are often fearful themselves to step out in faith and have never been used to do anything Jesus said we would do if we believed, heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons,speak in or interpret diverse tongues, prophesy etc. These timid souls use misdirection and exaggeration in pointing to the extremes (and yes we must guard against the loss of godly balance in all things). They are sometimes full of blinding jealousy/envy which warps the soul thus resulting in the wild accusations. God have mercy!

 

[teamventure]

Why then did you say I was following satan because I am used in the supernatural?


What else does it do?


I will be able to answer that when I know what your answer is to the previous question.

to be fair and decent i asked first. but i suppose i'll entertain you, i was saying you are following Satan because i believe you're part of the signs and wonders movement..
S&W movement plays into Satans hands.
you don't have to answer my question. i already know the answer.

 

[marksman]

to be fair and decent i asked first. but i suppose i'll entertain you, i was saying you are following Satan because i believe you're part of the signs and wonders movement..

So what you are saying is that when I prayed for a young man to be released from a spirit of homosexuality and he was and he is now happily married with a young son, that it was a work of satan?

if you are, I doubt that you know any answers because it means that the young man must give up being married and go back to being a homosexual because he was set free by satan according to you.

What else does it do?

I am still waiting for your reply as I am ignorant of these "other things."

And I am still waiting for an answer to my questions in post 45. I have a sneaking suspicion that as I have nailed you to back up what you claim, that you are unable to so silence is the order of the day to save face.

And thank you Michael for your comment as every word you wrote is the truth as I have been there and done that and seen what you say happen time and time again.

 

[marksman]

And I am still waiting for an answer to my questions in post 45. I have a sneaking suspicion that as I have nailed you to back up what you claim, that you are unable to so silence is the order of the day to save face.

Still waiting......

 

[marksman]

Still waiting......

Your silence speaks volumes.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Matthew 16:18
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[marksman]

and if you're rebelious, you'll follow the way of Satan even if it's disguissed as God.
and the devil speaks in tongues too not just God. fyi

And what if you are not rebellious?

 

[mjrhealth]

It all started before Jesus was even crucified up0on the cross,
than there was
The crusades, selling salvation for a price to the poor, telling men that if they fought for teh "church": they would be forgiven, murder of people who didnt agree with the church, even torture worse than what hitler did, so yes the church leadership has a lot to answer for, even today, i would not want to be in there shoes when they front up, they whom claim to be the Lords servants will be without excuse

 

[aspen]

what better way to attack the Body of Christ than suggesting that all leadership is from the Devil

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear All,

It may be an inconvient truth but it is true. Many ministers....in fact the majority I have meet....are highly demonized. Why is this so? Many are terribly hurt but soldier on anyway and those are the walking wounded. Many have compromised so much that they have forgotten what integrity is. A large number are very insecure as to their position before the board of directors and thus preach a comfortable gospel rather than a current one. Stil others are simply con men that pretend to be religious when they are in fact agents of Satan.

If you want to see what metal a minister is made of get him out of thier doctrinal box and see how they react.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Rex]

I don't know about every minister but I do know a pawn of the devil will seek to separate people from the word of God.

If you want to see what metal a minister is made of get him out of thier doctrinal box and see how they react.

Blessings,

Justin

Gen 3:1
3 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

You continue to speak as your father spoke to Eve Justin.


Though I do agree people need to discover for themselves instead of relying on someone else to intervene.
But that doesn't mean to they cast the word in the river and listen to you ether.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear S,

Never have understood the keys thingy...

Blessings,

Justin

 

[marksman]

i'm sure you've heard 1 Cor 14:33 many times, but stop and think about the verses before it for a minute. if a church service is supposed to be so orderly that people are to take turns speaking in an orderly fashion, then off the wall experiences and manifestations are obviously way out of line.

Team Venture is doing nothing more than quoting the anti spiritual gifts believers. I went to a Brethren Bible College and was taught just that. When I left, I ended up in a Charismatic Brethren Assembly and discovered it was all lies as the nine gifts of the Spirit were in operation all the time.

Here is one example of the word of knowledge in operation. Henry, a quiet, mild little man stood up one day and said "The Holy Spirit has shown me that there is someone here who is in bondage to smoking. He has given me the number 5. If that is you stand up and we will pray for you to be released from it."

There was few moments of quietness and then a visitor who has never been to the church before stood up and said "That is me. I smoke 5 cigarettes a day every day." The Elders prayed for him and six months later he visited the church again and testified since that day, he has not smoked one single cigarette.

But of course, according to Team Venture that was all a product of the devil so the man should start smoking again.

What they see as everything being done decently and in order is no more than keeping the Holy Spirit out of the equation for the simple reason they fear what they cannot control so they have to arrange everything so that there is no room for anyone, let alone the Holy Spirit to do anything that does not fit their nice and neat little service arrangements.

After all, how can the Holy Spirit be trusted to do things decently and in order?