Have the leadership of the church become pawns of the Devil?

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If God tells you to do one thing and chruch leadership tells you to do another who should you obey?

  • You should always obey your church leadership

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  • It depends on the situaiton

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veteran

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If the laughing in The Spirit manifestation is of The Holy Spirit, then I still cannot follow what it is for, can you shed light on what that manifestation among the Charismatic churches is for?

What about the manifestation of people falling backwards onto the floor?

Or those who get down in the floor writhing and making animal noises?

Or those running up and down in the aisles?

Oh, and the manifestation of uncontrollable shaking of the head and body like is done in eastern pagan religous practice?

Are those signs of The Holy Spirit showing peace and order in those churches???

http://vimeo.com/39191293
 

marksman

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veteran said:
If the laughing in The Spirit manifestation is of The Holy Spirit, then I still cannot follow what it is for, can you shed light on what that manifestation among the Charismatic churches is for?

What about the manifestation of people falling backwards onto the floor?

Or those who get down in the floor writhing and making animal noises?

Or those running up and down in the aisles?

Oh, and the manifestation of uncontrollable shaking of the head and body like is done in eastern pagan religous practice?

Are those signs of The Holy Spirit showing peace and order in those churches???

http://vimeo.com/39191293
I cannot speak for every church that experiences these things, and I would not hold up Kenneth Hagin and others like him as an example of the church in general and say "he does it so it must be right/wrong."

It is better to deal with the subject based on reality first hand rather than second hand reports.

I have experienced the following in a charismatic Brethren Church in the UK that was just one of many who experienced the same thing.

On the few occasions that I have laughed uncontrollably, I felt a refreshing and a cleansing from God.

Falling to the floor is in scripture so nothing new about that. On one occasion I was prayed for and fell to the floor. Whilst there (30 minutes), I felt God perform an operation on me to remove a spirit of rejection.

Before the event I felt rejected. After the event I did not.

The only occasion of animal noises I have experienced it turned out to be prophetic as someone prophesied that God was saying that he was warning us of his coming again.

The last two I have not seen or heard about.

Just a comment. What you determine is peace and order may be quite different to what the Holy Spirit determines is peace and order bearing in mind that on the day of pentecost, he visited the disciples with the sound of a rushing mighty wind, tongues of fire and shaken buildings. Do you consider that to be peace and order?

If not why not and if so, why is anything like it today not peace and order Holy Spirit version?
 

veteran

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marksman said:
I cannot speak for every church that experiences these things, and I would not hold up Kenneth Hagin and others like him as an example of the church in general and say "he does it so it must be right/wrong."

It is better to deal with the subject based on reality first hand rather than second hand reports.

I have experienced the following in a charismatic Brethren Church in the UK that was just one of many who experienced the same thing.

On the few occasions that I have laughed uncontrollably, I felt a refreshing and a cleansing from God.

Falling to the floor is in scripture so nothing new about that. On one occasion I was prayed for and fell to the floor. Whilst there (30 minutes), I felt God perform an operation on me to remove a spirit of rejection.

Before the event I felt rejected. After the event I did not.

The only occasion of animal noises I have experienced it turned out to be prophetic as someone prophesied that God was saying that he was warning us of his coming again.

The last two I have not seen or heard about.

Just a comment. What you determine is peace and order may be quite different to what the Holy Spirit determines is peace and order bearing in mind that on the day of pentecost, he visited the disciples with the sound of a rushing mighty wind, tongues of fire and shaken buildings. Do you consider that to be peace and order?

If not why not and if so, why is anything like it today not peace and order Holy Spirit version?
Oh, so THAT's what it is between us.

Can you find a Bible example of believers falling on the floor?

... or writhing on the floor while making animal noises?

... or in uncontrollable laughter?

... or rapid uncontrolled shaking of the head or body?


I can find Bible examples of some of those, but they were not experienced by God's people.

I lovingly recommend you seek out a Bible-learned Pastor in a completely different... kind of Church than those types that manifest those things. Your soul is in danger. There, I've done my duty for Christ in that.
 

marksman

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veteran said:
I lovingly recommend you seek out a Bible-learned Pastor in a completely different... kind of Church than those types that manifest those things. Your soul is in danger. There, I've done my duty for Christ in that.
Your condescending and paternalistic tone does not impress me.

Bible learned Pastor?? Do you mean one like me with four degrees and 50 years experience in ministry in Baptist, Brethren, Pentecostal, Charismatic, Anglican, Independent, Home Church and Charismatic Brethren.

In addition, leadership of two parachurch ministries.

As for my soul being in danger, I will let God be my judge. If I did otherwise, I would be resurrecting the pre reformation period. Any penance you have in mind for me?

And as for doing your duty in Christ, let me quote an old Amish proverb...He who thinks he knows everything, knows nothing.
 

Eltanin

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Falling down:
These Scriptures do not justify the standing-in-line-to-be-bowled-over-by-God that we see in many charismatic churches, but they do show that when Christ confronts you, you might not stand.
In John 18:4-6 those who came to arrest Jesus drew back and fell to the ground at Jesus' proclamation, "I AM He".
Saul fell to the ground in Acts 9/ Acts 26 when he was confronted by Jesus.

I grew up in a charismatic church. My church didn't form lines specifically for the purpose of Spirit-trust-falls, but there were instances that we waited for the Spirit to move, and someone would fall... In those instances, no matter what someone fell into, no one ever got hurt.

I had attended revivals that looked very much like that video, and I was always uncomfortable. There were 2 different occasions that the whole congregation was required by the speaker to come forward for a blessing-of-the-Spirit, and both times, I refused to fall when the speaker tried to snap my neck. I was told by one to "...just fall...", and the other claimed I had a spirit of rebellion and proceeded to gather elders to cast it out. Needless to say, I walked out of both of those services. Those services resulted in bruises, scrapes, and goose-eggs by those who participated.

I did fall one time, waiting for the Spirit. A small group of us had started a prayer and meditation group for which the pastor opened the sanctuary for us on Friday nights. There was no speaking, except for the time that we gathered into a circle at the end and each took a turn praying for what God laid on our hearts that night. My experience, I believe, lined up with the NT. I came to, and didn't realize I was out, or that I had fallen. I was given a definite experience of Jesus proclaiming to me, and a transformation of my understanding. There was healing within me, and I went forth from that experience a very different person.

I know that on the rare occasions that someone 'fell out' in the church I grew up in, it always happened when we were waiting on God. We would take time to be quite, pray, and meditate. There would always be a change in the atmosphere, and an expectancy that arose, and it was not the most common manifestation of the Spirit. Usually, the person that fell, would fall into stuff, like chairs, the pew, or the altar, because no one was expecting THAT to happen, but the person was always just fine, although the same can't be said for some of the things that were in their way.

Laughter and Drunkenness: In Acts 2, the onlookers, seeing the believers after the Holy Spirit had descended upon them, made fun of the believers because they looked drunk to them... In my experience, if a drunk person isn't sad and violent, they are happy. Drunk looks like allot of different things, so I can't really say there is a definite look to 'drunk in the Spirit'.

In my spiritual experience growing up, there were times when people would become so joyful, that laughter was inevitable. If it was to happen, it always happened when the congregation was waiting on the Spirit. I know I had 2 experiences where I was battling spiritually, and I felt I was losing. Sometimes when you go from a low extreme one minute, to the sudden saturation of God's comfort around you, you cannot help but laugh at the joy of it.

Laughter was not the most common manifestation of the Spirit in our church, but it was the most infecting. It is so hard to see someone laughing and joyful and not be so yourself. I can't say that every person in those services were laughing because the Spirit touched them personally, but I can say that every person that left after those times went away feeling better for the day.

I have never observed the convulsions to the magnitude that is shown in the video, and I can say the only time I saw anything like it were at the revivals and rallies that pedaled the Holy Spirit like snake oil. I can't really say that all of it is fake, but I think when you see the same thing happening to each person as a minister goes down the line, you really should stop and evaluate if you feel the Spirit or if there is a major case of crowd manipulation. Are people walking away truly different, or are they just falling for the hype? It seems to me that we are dealt with as individuals, and part of being an individual is that each person responds differently when confronted with similar situations.

When it comes to charismatic churches, I think this is a real and present danger and a definite deception that the Church faces. When I was younger, there were people in our church who would get 'addicted' to the 'manifestation'. They would seek out certain speakers and hit any revival by those speakers that they could. There was a major split in my teenage years, because these people didn't feel that the Spirit manifested enough in our church, and it must be the fault of our pastor at the time, because people didn't just fall down when he touched them. I think that a majority of Christians who seek out these experiences are putting more importance on 'having an experience' instead of 'having a relationship'.

I cannot rightly say how the Spirit should choose to manifest, but I do know that it does manifest in ways that we do not expect. I don't think that the Holy Spirit manifest in ways that are disruptive to the betterment of a congregation, so I would be skeptical of people speaking out, jumping up, or suddenly laughing during a message.
 

horsecamp

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Justin Mangonel said:
Hi all,

I have been in different churches and the reason that i have moved on from each one is that the leadership of the church would only allow God to move just so much in my life and no further.

I started out in a Free will Baptist church but when was filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in other tongues the wanted me to leave.

Is it possible that one of the main tools that the Devil uses to fight the Holy Spirit is the actual leadership of the normative Christian church? Does Satan use ministers to corral God's people and keep them from maturing into the fulness and stature of Jesus Christ?

<< Link removed. >>
LET HIM WHO WANTS TO HEAR God speak to them read holy scriptures .. any Spirit apart from holy scriptures is of the devil.

do you understand why these statements have to be and are true jason ?.. JUST ONE EXAMPLE--because OTHER WISE SOME CHILD KILLER COULD SAY .. HE HEARD GODS VOICE SAY KILL THAT CHILD AND ANOTHER PERSON COULD SAY GOD TOLD THEM TO BLOW UP THE WORLD TRADE CENTERS ETC ETC ETC.

PERHAPS? The other baptists in your church were wondering why would God give you such a worthless gift since none in their church could be edified by the gibberish that came from your mouth that they could not understand? were you just to good and holy for them Jason? or were you trying to fool them and us to.



.

SilenceInMotion said:
It depends on your church. From what I understand, Protestants do not have an authoritative leadership because it's not in their dogma. In the Church, however, the clergy have authority through the Keys given to Peter.
your correct IF YOUR THINKING lutheran protestant because the only authority a Lutheran pastor Or Lutheran synod president or seminary proffesor has is to speak first and last and quote scripture in between..
and if the scripture he quotes to make his point is unconvincing every one is free
to disreguard what he says . The use of the keys Lutherans beleive are given to every christian not just our pastors .. any one of us can anounce to the truly penetent the forgivness they have in Christ just as if Christ himself were announcing it.. ANd any one of us can use the other key also for those who are unrepentent just as if Christ himself were doing it..

we should remember the key that locks is used only out of love for the persons soul . in hopes they return to to faith in Jesus and his loving forgivness allready won for them for their sin. the use of the locking key shows the seriousness of disbelief in Christ forgiveness already won for them for the sin they refuse to repent of .... you see if a person says his sin is not sin they would not trust in Jesus forgivness already won for them for it on the cross.

.There is not a word in the Bible which is extra cruem, which can be understood without reference to the cross.
MARTIN LUTHER
 

marksman

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horsecamp said:
LET HIM WHO WANTS TO HEAR God speak to them read holy scriptures .. any Spirit apart from holy scriptures is of the devil.
REALLY? You definitely have a blinkered view of what God does or says.

So when the Spirit gave them the ability to speak in tongues on the day of Pentecost, that was really the devil at work?

So when the Spirit bade Paul to go to Macedonia via a vision, that was the devil speaking?

So when God spoke to me to start a support group for people who wanted to escape their homosexuality, that was the devil speaking?

And which holy scriptures are you talking about bearing in mind that the New Testament did not exist when the church was founded?
 

veteran

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Eltanin said:
Laughter and Drunkenness: In Acts 2, the onlookers, seeing the believers after the Holy Spirit had descended upon them, made fun of the believers because they looked drunk to them... In my experience, if a drunk person isn't sad and violent, they are happy. Drunk looks like allot of different things, so I can't really say there is a definite look to 'drunk in the Spirit'.
You've been given the wrong interpretation of that Acts 2 event. The reason why the hearers were in question was because of how the Apostles, being Galileans, spoke their languages of birth, even down to the dialect of their regions.

Acts 2:6-8
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, "Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?"
(KJV)


Because the mockers present couldn't understand how that could be, they were the ones that mocked with saying they were full of new wine.

So please, let's not try and turn that event into a writhing, uncontrollable laughter, falling down in the floor frenzy comparison, because it's not.
 

horsecamp

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marksman said:
REALLY? You definitely have a blinkered view of what God does or says.

So when the Spirit gave them the ability to speak in tongues on the day of Pentecost, that was really the devil at work?

So when the Spirit bade Paul to go to Macedonia via a vision, that was the devil speaking?

So when God spoke to me to start a support group for people who wanted to escape their homosexuality, that was the devil speaking?

And which holy scriptures are you talking about bearing in mind that the New Testament did not exist when the church was founded?
i LIke what you said ( spirit gave it to them ) THEM IS NOT YOU ..

next

NOW about God speaking to you

next time God speaks to you get a recording of it .. or do a better job of explaining exactly what you mean
by that . who know's i might even agree .

perhaps i could help you out on this God does Convict us of things he tells us in scripture ..

for instance scripture lets us know were to help those in need so God could easly have Convicted you of the need to help people struggling with the sin of homosexuality .. .. if thats what you mean By God speaking to you . sure I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT -- yET if you want try to say he audubly talks to you.. Me and a whole bunch of other PEOPLE would want to hear that tape recording.. :D

the biggest problem between christains is NOT THAT WE BELIEVE THAT MUCH DIFFERENT FROM EACH OTHER .. but rather we use way different words that the other christian may not be use to hearing .. so they think
their beliefs are way different from the other persons, and they may not be at all !!
 

marksman

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horsecamp said:
i LIke what you said ( spirit gave it to them ) THEM IS NOT YOU ..

next

NOW about God speaking to you

next time God speaks to you get a recording of it .. or do a better job of explaining exactly what you mean
by that . who know's i might even agree .

perhaps i could help you out on this God does Convict us of things he tells us in scripture ..

for instance scripture lets us know were to help those in need so God could easly have Convicted you of the need to help people struggling with the sin of homosexuality .. .. if thats what you mean By God speaking to you . sure I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT -- yET if you want try to say he audubly talks to you.. Me and a whole bunch of other PEOPLE would want to hear that tape recording.. :D

the biggest problem between christains is NOT THAT WE BELIEVE THAT MUCH DIFFERENT FROM EACH OTHER .. but rather we use way different words that the other christian may not be use to hearing .. so they think
their beliefs are way different from the other persons, and they may not be at all !!
How about answering the questions?
veteran said:
You've been given the wrong interpretation of that Acts 2 event. The reason why the hearers were in question was because of how the Apostles, being Galileans, spoke their languages of birth, even down to the dialect of their regions.

You have obviously not seen anyone who is drunk.
 

Dodo_David

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The last time that I checked, the only people in the New Testament who fell to the ground were those who were opposing Jesus.

Nowhere does the New Testament say that people fell to the ground after they became believers.
 

veteran

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marksman said:
You have obviously not seen anyone who is drunk.
Your ignorance and wayward attitude against the Truth is showing.
Dodo_David said:
The last time that I checked, the only people in the New Testament who fell to the ground were those who were opposing Jesus.

Nowhere does the New Testament say that people fell to the ground after they became believers.
Exactly. The men with Judas who came after Jesus to crucify Him fell backwards to the ground when they asked Him His identity and He told them.
John 18:6
6 As soon then as He had said unto them, "I am he", they went backward, and fell to the ground.
(KJV)



We are to 'try' the spirits to determine whether they be of God or not, and some here apparently have not done that.
 

marksman

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veteran said:
Your ignorance and wayward attitude against the Truth is showing.
And you obviously have not seen a man who is drunk.
veteran said:
We are to 'try' the spirits to determine whether they be of God or not, and some here apparently have not done that.
And some have and know the spirit behind your comments but we are too polite to tell you.
 

Dodo_David

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Some people interpret experiences according to the Bible.
Some people interpret the Bible according to experiences.

The last time that I checked, Christians are supposed to do the former, not the latter.
 

This Vale Of Tears

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Dodo_David said:
The last time that I checked, the only people in the New Testament who fell to the ground were those who were opposing Jesus.

Nowhere does the New Testament say that people fell to the ground after they became believers.
But don't you know that unbelievers will take one look at this and say, "Yep, Christianity is sane, level headed religion. Where do I sign up?"

slain_in_spirit.jpg
 

Dodo_David

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Dodo_David said:
The last time that I checked, the only people in the New Testament who fell to the ground were those who were opposing Jesus.

Nowhere does the New Testament say that people fell to the ground after they became believers.

This Vale Of Tears said:
But don't you know that unbelievers will take one look at this and say, "Yep, Christianity is sane, level headed religion. Where do I sign up?"

slain_in_spirit.jpg
Vale, I do enjoy your dry wit. ^_^

Of course, you allude to 1 Corinthians 14:23, which says, "So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?"
 

This Vale Of Tears

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Dodo_David said:
Vale, I do enjoy your dry wit. ^_^

Of course, you allude to 1 Corinthians 14:23, which says, "So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?"
Yes, um.....that's exactly the verse I was thinking of. <_<
 

Dodo_David

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As I said earlier, some people interpret the Bible according to their experiences.

For example, someone who believes in Jesus has a particular experience that is not supported by the Bible.
The person thinks, "Because this experience involved me or my friends, it must be from the Holy Spirit."

It is akin to a man first saying that same-sex marriage is wrong, and then promoting same-sex marriage because he learned that his child is a homosexual. Supporting what is emotionally pleasing takes priority over what the Bible teaches.
 

aspen

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Empathy is usually developed from experience. Empathy is required for love and forgiveness of neighbor, which is what we are supposed to be doing as Christians. I truly believe that we are only allowed to see personal sin within others in order to develop our ability to build empathy and practice love and forgiveness. If our interpretation of the Bible contradicts the sum of the law - loving God and neighbor - it is wrong. Our experience and the empathy we develop from knowing and loving homosexual neighbors and other sinners should lead to a great capacity to love - not judge or hate. Therefore, we should not condemn a person for loving a sinner because they took the time to get to know them.
 

This Vale Of Tears

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aspen2 said:
Empathy is usually developed from experience. Empathy is required for love and forgiveness of neighbor, which is what we are supposed to be doing as Christians. I truly believe that we are only allowed to see personal sin within others in order to develop our ability to build empathy and practice love and forgiveness. If our interpretation of the Bible contradicts the sum of the law - loving God and neighbor - it is wrong. Our experience and the empathy we develop from knowing and loving homosexual neighbors and other sinners should lead to a great capacity to love - not judge or hate. Therefore, we should not condemn a person for loving a sinner because they took the time to get to know them.
I agree with this. Another member here was disparaging the Pope for having a relationship with a witch doctor in Africa and I sometimes wonder if people like this even read the gospels. When we reach out to sinners, develop loving relationships to them, and come to understand their point of view, we come to know the Sacred Heart of Christ. We become like him. And isn't that what Christianity is all about?