"He who practices righteousness is righteous" (1 John 3:7)
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You would be wrong in saying that. At this point This is where you are supposed to show me that what you say is correct Within the context of the passage
1 Cor. 9:1Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3My defense to those who examine me is this: 4Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? 6Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working? 7Who ever goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its fruit? Or who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk of the flock?
8Do I say these things as a mere man? Or does not the law say the same also? 9For it is written in the law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain.” Is it oxen God is concerned about? 10Or does He say it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written, that he who plows should plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should be partaker of his hope. 11If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it a great thing if we reap your material things? 12If others are partakers of this right over you, are we not even more?
Nevertheless we have not used this right, but endure all things lest we hinder the gospel of Christ. 13Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat of the things of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of the offerings of the altar? 14Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.
15But I have used none of these things, nor have I written these things that it should be done so to me; for it would be better for me to die than that anyone should make my boasting void. 16For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel! 17For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship. 18What is my reward then? That when I preach the gospel, I may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that I may not abuse my authority in the gospel.
19For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.
24Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
Do you see anything about getting save there? I see none. What is there to see os Paul’s doing about the work that Jesus Christ had commanded him to do, that is, preach the gospel.
What is the point of Paul that he was making in giving them the figure of one who runs to compete in a race in v.24-25? It’s not to be saved, for sure. He said he runs thus. And he does so obviously to get the reward, the prize. Is that referring to salvation as the prize? No. For he was not taking about salvation there but about his preaching the gospel.
Some confuse the fear of disqualification in v27 with the fear of damnation. Paul had no fear that he would lose his salvation (Read what Paul had written in Rom. 8:1, 29-39). In the context, what he could lose would be an imperishable reward, but not his salvation.
Tong
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Of course!
Now, let's agree there are both types sitting in the pews.
But, the dire warnings are for both types;
one type needs them now, the other type may need them later.
The unbeliever goes to hell for habitually sinning w/o repentance!
Can the disobedient BAC get away with habitually sinning w/o repentance?
Is God a just God? ... Is He a respecter of persons?
We all understand that the BAC has enormous advantages over the unbeliever,
and thus the BAC has much less of an excuse for falling away via disobedience.
So, we could say: the BAC deserves more punishment.
Your faith must endure until the end of your life
In the NT, the Greek indicates that “believe” is a present tense imperative verb! Yes, a continuing belief-faith is necessary for continuing salvation-eternal life! … Note the famous John 3:16 …
“… whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe] in Him may have [present tense:
may continue to have] eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe] in Him should not perish
but have [present tense: continue to have] eternal life.”
CONDITIONAL SALVATION verses
“… to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in
His sight — IF indeed you continue in the faith … and are not
moved away from the hope of the gospel” (Colossians 1:22-23)
“It is this Good News (the gospel) that saves you, IF you continue
to believe the message I told you” (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)
“… every act of disobedience was punished. So what makes
us think we can escape, IF we ignore this great salvation”
(Hebrews 2:1-3)
“And we are God’s house, IF we keep our courage and remain
confident in our hope in Christ. … For IF we are faithful to
the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed,
we will share in all that belongs to Christ.” (Hebrews 3:6,14)
“And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season
we shall reap (eternal life), IF we do not lose heart.“ (Galatians 6:9)
“IF we endure hardship, we will reign with Him.” (2 Timothy 2:12)
“… follow the example of those who are going to inherit God’s
promises because of their faith and endurance.” (Hebrews 6:12)
“the one who endures to the end will be saved.“ (Matthew 24:13)
So, you acknowledge there are so called Christians and there are true Christians. That’s good. Now perhaps you can address my question, which you haven’t done so:
”Will a true Christian reject Jesus Christ, Him whom he said he had sincerely and truly received, accepted, and believed in his heart? If one does reject Jesus after accepting him, what does that make him out to be? A liar? A hypocrite? A false believer? What?”
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What I was asking you to cite are scriptures that speak of eternal security and the condition that goes with it. But not one of those you have given do so. So, I think this is settled here.
And here instead, you cite scriptures which for you speaks of conditional salvation. And obviously you believe that you are saved only if you meet the condition, that you believe and continue to do so to the end of your life. Do you want us to discuss that instead?
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well you can define apply anyway you wish, but I know what Paul says. Jesus has become my righteousness.
Sanctified by definition is to be set apart. In the biblical sense it is set apart for sacred use.
And positional sanctification is once for all. Experiential sancitification is an ongoing process as it says in Hebrews! See we who don't have to pretend we are perfect like the decieved do, know that God has saved us and is now teaching us to unlearn th eold and learn th enew ways! We also know that we must die daily to self and when we don't there is plenteous foriveness in God.
sorry you serve an unbiblical god who is so mean and angry that He gives you no room to make mistakes or yanks His love and grace from you! I would love to show the one true god and the depths of His mercy and the Biblical much mores now that Jesus is my righteousness.
I am done till Tuesday. Off to see my son , his wife and my new granddaughter.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well will you get your roommate to submit written documentation? A picture would be nice as well. Sorry but too many here make empty boasts and I don't see God working these kind of miracles to be kept secret from mankind.
Be back Tuesday.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
To respond to this again. applied to my account means that the debt I owed God the Father was paid by the blood of Jesus. Forever. YOU see God as an angry tyrant sitting in heaven ready to fry you with a thunderbolt if you screw up just once after you are saved.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
You don't even know what the verses you are quoting even mean! You post here and make wild false claims and yet you are ignorant of teh meaning of the Scriptures you quote to try to justify your false doctrine.
YOu do not know what "sinner" means almost all the time it is used in Scripture.
No believer is a slave to sin, but we still commit sin. We make mistakes and serve the one true god who will never leave us or forsake us. sorry about teh God you have created. REady to dump you the first time you entertain a wrong thought.
Be back Tuesday.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Leviticus 4:2 is the law- are you under the Mosaic dispoensation then?
Deut. is about accidental killing of a person and fleeing to a city of re3fuge till the matter can be discerned. That was to protect the person from the vengeance of the victims family if the death was by accident and not in cold blood or malice.
Heb. 9 , once again it is speaking of teh dispensation of the law and the sacrifices. People had to atone for sins they did not even know they may have committed, or learned afterward that what they did violated the 613 commandments.
God is more gracious in teh covenant of grace. He does not see your sin, but sees Christ in you. sorry you serve a false god that is ready to dump you the first time you screw up. Give me ten minutes with you and though you probably won't admit it out loud, I would show you many times you have knowingly sinned but haver somehow justified them away!
God woos sinners, saves them, then according to your false gospel tells them- screw up once when you kno wyou shouldn't have, and it is all over for you! No second chance according to Hebrews 10:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
I hope you never do knowingly fail- for if you do, you are going to have a complete nervous breakdown thinking you are damned forever. but there is good news! The God who is almighty and creator has mercy and grace for you even after you are saved!
Well I am off till Tuesday, I have a new grandaughter I am going to visit.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well I never get to teh part
B of the argument. If one appears to be walking in faith and departs from the faith, the bible makes it explicitly clear that they did not lose their salvation, but it says they never had salvation to begin with!
Matt. 7: Key Word is NEVER Known
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
But I know that even a saved individual can go through periods of dark doubt and seem to lose their faith, but they are kept. as it is written
Psalm 37:23-25
King James Version
23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand.
25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
And the righteousness of the saved is Jesus Himself and not how well we live up to a measure of good works.
I fully agree. but I have yet to meet or hear of that person , and that includes the three here who pretend they have ceased from sinning.
If they are a kleptomaniac- they know they are stealing.
Kleptomania (klep-toe-MAY-nee-uh) is the recurrent inability to resist urges to steal items that you generally don't really need and that usually have little value. Kleptomania is a rare but serious mental health disorder that can cause much emotional pain to you and your loved ones if not treated
they know what they are doing, they just have lost control to stop themselves from doing it (more often than not that is demonic oppression)
To make any kind of judgment without first gathering facts is presumptiousness and that is sin. You judged without first asking why. You sinned.
Well I am a candidate as well. But I also know that I am already perfected forver by decree of God! Heb. 10. Now He that has begun that good work in me will perform it until the day I am taken home to be with Him.
Well off tiull Tuesday. I have a new granddauighter to go and visit.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
And I don't disagree with anything you said here except your false accusations of me.
True saving faith faith requires nothing on our part!
Ephesians 2:8-10
King James Version
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
We are saved without any action on our part! Then given the new nature we are capapble of growing in grace and knowledge of the Lord and growing in the good works Jesus prepared in the past for us to walk in.
YOu do good works to try to keep saved, I do good works as a result of my being saved.
But let me make this clear, I do not promote nor condone living in unrepentant sin. I do not condone a life of sin for one who calles themselves a believer. I jsut know that believers though perfected in position are not perfected in practice yet and that we are growing day by day in holiness and that god will never leave us or forsake us or crush us because we still have our imperfect nature and at times yield to it. god is njot a tyrant waiting to crush the very ones He says He loves. That is not the God of the bible.
Well I am off till Tueday. I have a new granddaughter to visit.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Ron, the verse in Hebrews is like people being saved, it is not progressive. It is becoming a Christian, as opposed to a nonbeliever.
Being sinless is not being perfect. But Jesus gives us all the seeds of the fruit of the Spirit to grow. But those seeds must mature, and that process is called glorification, becoming like Christ. It has nothing to do with sins unto death, but growing out of childhood and living up to the knowledge that you have. Philippians 3:16. Being sinless is not even doing everything right. Just doing everything according to the knowledge you possess. So you are right that we must unlearn the mistakes in doctrine of the common Church, and go by what the Scriptures teach, and be open to learn even more, because the Spirit keeps teaching us new things. For instance, up until a short while ago, I thought Jesus takes away our desire to commit sins of major lawlessness, but we must forgive one another for our own minor trespasses that need to be pruned to be forgiven . Matthew 6:14-15. John 15. But God wanted me to go further, so after I kept forgiving others, God spoke to me and said, it is not enough to forgive others, you must also do your best to go to people and try to reconcile. Matthew 5:23-25; 1 John 1:7. I immediately wrote to an old friend who I had had a major falling away from. I did my part though it was hard, but found that sociopaths don't want to obey God and do their own part to reconcile. It takes two to reconcile. But I did learn and grow.
I'm not perfect, but I'm closer than I was 44 years ago. LOL But I never do anything against my conscience, so I do enjoy sinlessness and I do receive everything God tells me to pray for, so 100% of my prayers are answered. 1 John 3:22. So I'm not deceived. I'm living a life pleasing to God, and enjoy an extreme fear of the Lord to stay that way. Those I call my closest friends, know what I'm talking about, because they experience the same.
My God demands righteousness, but gives us all the tools and also His Spirit to accomplish it. That is love. A god like you are describing, demands holiness, but leaves you desiring sin. That is not my God.
That sounds like a great trip. Have fun!
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
No, God gives me the overwhelming desire to be like Jesus. Jesus was sinless, and was the firstborn of many brethren. I'm so sorry if I gave you any impression that God was a tyrant. Don't you know it is for our own good to do righteousness, than to fornicate and end up pregnant or with an STD? If you think a loving parent doesn't want to save you from misery, that is abuse.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Let me explain something further. There are two types of sin. 1 John 5:16-17. One makes you an unsaved sinner. The other a saved child of God can commit, but we are instructed to forgive others for that same type of sin against us.
Sins unto death = willful sins of lawlessness (1 John 3:4)
Sins not unto death - trespasses (Matthew 5:23-25; Matthew 6:14-15; 1 John 2:1; 1 John 1:7)
Because the verses that teach my doctrine say nothing of your doctrine, you reject them as being, what? unscriptural?
Ok, that settles that, then.
To both of these I say, ***wishful thinking***
The point I would make about this is that there are those who believe that they are true Christians, and eternally secure, who do not have a living and saving faith in Jesus Christ.
So, the question is, how can we address their situation so that they will not place their trust in eternal security and so that they can be saved for that their false hope is taken away (so that they can replace it with a true and living hope?)
Personally, I know that I don't have to be perfect to be accepted in the Beloved. My sins are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. However, as one who has lived a Romans 7:14-25 lifestyle as a Christian, I have become discontented with living such a lifestyle (Romans 7:24) and therefore the doctrine of entire sanctification strikes me as being "good news" because when I do sin, I become afflicted in my conscience.
But because I walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses me of all sin as I confess my sins. When the Holy Spirit pinpoints sin to my awareness, I do not deny that it is sin (1 John 1:8). But I also know that the moment I confess it, I am cleansed from that unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).
That is exactly what He is...the only thing that prevents Him from frying anyone is the fact that His wrath has been appeased through the propitiation of Christ.
Is that what the Bible teaches?
Jhn 8:34, Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
I believe that it is saying that sin has an addictive element to it, so that if you sin even once, the element of addiction kicks in.
We can have salvation from sin (Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:14) and the kingdom of hell for a season and yet not be saved eternally from the fate of hell.
In Luke 8:12-13, it should be clear, in verse 12, that the one who believes is saved (as well as in Ephesians 2:8-9). And, in verse 13, it is clear that there are those who "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away."
Also, there are those who "stand by faith" (Romans 11:20); who, if they do not continue in the goodness of the Lord, will be "cut off" (Romans 11:20-22).
And, do you think that I am one of those three? I am not. I merely contend for the idea that a person is able to cease from sinning in the power of the Holy Ghost. I don't think that I have arrived to that state; which does not preclude that I have not arrived to that state.
I do believe that the thefts committed by kleptomaniacs are often done unconsciously and there may be times when they steal and do not even realize that they have done so. In those instances, I would count their sin as non-willful.
Since I do not claim that I do not ever sin, that is really a moot point.
Because whether or not I specifically sin is irrelevant to the discussion of whether the Bible teaches or does not teach that we can be set free from committing sin in our lives.
No doubt, if I didn't sin, it would be a very real proof that my position on the matter is valid.
But the fact that I do sin has no bearing on the teaching of the Bible. The Bible is set apart from people. If people who preach its doctrines have not yet been affected by those doctrines so that they are examples of what those doctrines teach in their own lives, that is not a proof that the Bible doesn't teach those doctrines.
Only if you have already been sanctified (Hebrews 10:14 (kjv)). And I would compare Hebrews 10:10,14 to 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv) and venture to say that it is saying, Only if you are sanctified wholly.
It requires believing.
I was only refuting your position that there is only willful sins and no unintentional sins. So what you are arguing there is no arguments against my refutation.
As if there are no unintentional sins, such as are sins of ignorance under the new covenant. If course there are.
And I don’t know where your personal comments and false accusations directed to me are coming from. That may well be an example of unintentional sin, for I know not anything that I have done that is sinful against you.
Tong
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