Helen
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- Oct 22, 2011
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Health Laws
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gadar perets
Well-Known Member
Shabbat Shalom! Whenever you two are done joking around, post #s 12 & 13 await your replies.
My short and sharp understanding of the dietary laws...there is no such thing in the Bible as "unclean food". When God was saying such 'n such was unclean, He was unequivocally stating "that ain't food". He is the Manufacturer. Would you put water in your gas tank on your favourite car? Why do you insist that its okay to ignore the Manufacturer's instructions and poison your body with swine's flesh, shell-fish, and all manner of unhealthy birds and mammals? Think about this. It is very true...absolutely true, that we are what we eat. We are what our food eats also!!! To believe that God has changed His mind and somehow "blesses" poison when we deliberately eat that which He specifically states is NOT food, is at least disrespectful and presumptious, at most blasphemous.
Davy
Well-Known Member
I agree with the OP. Our Lord Jesus didn't nail God's health laws on His cross. He nailed the ordinances in God's laws to His cross, specifically dealing with religious ritual and blood ordinances.
One of the most mis-quoted passages used in the New Testament to try and justify that we can eat anything and be healthy is this:
1 Tim 4:3
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
KJV
The key specification that Apostle Paul made there is "which God hath created to be received". That's means the clean list of meats that God provided for us to eat and be healthy.
But most brethren think all they need do is pray over something like shellfish and their body will still be healthy.
The body might remain healthy, until one reaches later in their life. And then the result of not eating healthy shows up, and many wonder why.
God did not re-create the earth and animals since Adam and Noah. His list of clean and unclean meats are still in effect. What is not in effect are religious penalties per the Old Covenant that may have resulted from breaking the health laws. Because Paul also taught that if you go to the house of the unbeliever for dinner, eat whatever they put before you, for sake of taking The Gospel to them. And whatever is sold in the shambles (market), that eat, asking no questions.
In other words, preaching The Gospel and doing Christ's work is more important than what we eat. But it still will not protect our flesh body from unhealthy foods, because God has already established this health science for this present world, and it's not going to get better, especially with man today playing with genetics, ruining our flood supply.
One of the most mis-quoted passages used in the New Testament to try and justify that we can eat anything and be healthy is this:
1 Tim 4:3
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
KJV
The key specification that Apostle Paul made there is "which God hath created to be received". That's means the clean list of meats that God provided for us to eat and be healthy.
But most brethren think all they need do is pray over something like shellfish and their body will still be healthy.
The body might remain healthy, until one reaches later in their life. And then the result of not eating healthy shows up, and many wonder why.
God did not re-create the earth and animals since Adam and Noah. His list of clean and unclean meats are still in effect. What is not in effect are religious penalties per the Old Covenant that may have resulted from breaking the health laws. Because Paul also taught that if you go to the house of the unbeliever for dinner, eat whatever they put before you, for sake of taking The Gospel to them. And whatever is sold in the shambles (market), that eat, asking no questions.
In other words, preaching The Gospel and doing Christ's work is more important than what we eat. But it still will not protect our flesh body from unhealthy foods, because God has already established this health science for this present world, and it's not going to get better, especially with man today playing with genetics, ruining our flood supply.
gadar perets
Well-Known Member
The ONLY thing he nailed to the cross were the sins of man that resulted from breaking YHWH's laws. The "cheirographon" was a certificate of debt, not YHWH's ordinances.
1 Corinthians 10:25-27 - There were many kinds of unclean meats sold in Gentile meat markets. But in the case of the Corinthians, the Apostle Paul was referring to the eating of meat sacrificed to idols, not the eating of unclean meat. These verses must be read in context which includes verses 14 through 33. This entire passage refers to idolatry. The point was that since part of the animal was offered to idols, the idol and its worshipers were sharing a common meal. This, according to Jewish thought, creates a bond of fellowship between them.
Davy
Well-Known Member
I guess you never read this then:
Col 2:14
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross;
KJV
Eph 2:15
15 Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
KJV
Paul was not ONLY referring to meat sacrificed to idols:
1 Cor 10:25-27
25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
KJV
Paul commanded us to not eat it IF it was said it was sacrificed to an idol. The above is not about that. Paul would NOT tell us to eat if sacrificed to idols. He does not say any such idea in those above verses.
This following verse is where Paul said don't eat it IF sacrificed to an idol:
1 Cor 10:28
28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:
KJV
gadar perets
Well-Known Member
Sorry for the delay in replying. You position is confusing. In post #25 you are against eating unclean meat, but in your last post you seem to be OK with it.
Of course I read that. That is why I wrote in post #26, The "cheirographon" was a certificate of debt, not YHWH's ordinances." The word "handwriting" is the Greek word "cheirographon."
The Greek word for ordinances here (and in Colossians 2:14) is a form of the root word "dogma" which means man-made rules, laws, commandments, precepts, etc. Paul is not talking about YHWH's ordinances in this verse. He is talking about man's ordinances or traditions. This same word is used in Colossians 2:20 pertaining to the doctrines and commandments of men; in Luke 2:1 pertaining to a decree from Caesar Augustus; and in Acts 17:7 pertaining to a decree from Caesar; It pertains to man's commandments, not YHWH's. Compare the word dogma with the Greek word that pertains to YHWH's ordinances, "dikaioma." This word dikaioma was used in Luke 1:6 pertaining to the ordinances of YHWH and in Hebrews 9:1,10 pertaining once again to YHWH's ordinances.
In verses 11-13, Paul explains that before one accepts Messiah as his Savior he is separated from the commonwealth of Israel, he is without YHWH, and he is uncircumcised. However, once he accepts Messiah he becomes an Israelite, circumcised in the heart, and at one with YHWH. Notice what is abolished in verse 15. It is the enmity or the hatred between the Israelite and the Gentile that was abolished. This hatred was caused by the commandments and traditions of men. For example, Paul alludes to a "middle wall of partition" between Jew and Gentile. This was a literal wall that Paul uses in a figurative sense to make his point. The Jews decreed,( they made a dogma/ordinance), which stated that if a Gentile crossed over the wall separating the Court of the Jews from the Court of the Gentiles surrounding the temple, that they would be immediately killed. This was not a commandment of YHWH. In fact, YHWH never even commanded such a wall to exist. That dogma created a hatred between the two peoples which Messiah destroyed creating one new man and so, making peace.
Of course I read that. That is why I wrote in post #26, The "cheirographon" was a certificate of debt, not YHWH's ordinances." The word "handwriting" is the Greek word "cheirographon."
The Greek word for ordinances here (and in Colossians 2:14) is a form of the root word "dogma" which means man-made rules, laws, commandments, precepts, etc. Paul is not talking about YHWH's ordinances in this verse. He is talking about man's ordinances or traditions. This same word is used in Colossians 2:20 pertaining to the doctrines and commandments of men; in Luke 2:1 pertaining to a decree from Caesar Augustus; and in Acts 17:7 pertaining to a decree from Caesar; It pertains to man's commandments, not YHWH's. Compare the word dogma with the Greek word that pertains to YHWH's ordinances, "dikaioma." This word dikaioma was used in Luke 1:6 pertaining to the ordinances of YHWH and in Hebrews 9:1,10 pertaining once again to YHWH's ordinances.
In verses 11-13, Paul explains that before one accepts Messiah as his Savior he is separated from the commonwealth of Israel, he is without YHWH, and he is uncircumcised. However, once he accepts Messiah he becomes an Israelite, circumcised in the heart, and at one with YHWH. Notice what is abolished in verse 15. It is the enmity or the hatred between the Israelite and the Gentile that was abolished. This hatred was caused by the commandments and traditions of men. For example, Paul alludes to a "middle wall of partition" between Jew and Gentile. This was a literal wall that Paul uses in a figurative sense to make his point. The Jews decreed,( they made a dogma/ordinance), which stated that if a Gentile crossed over the wall separating the Court of the Jews from the Court of the Gentiles surrounding the temple, that they would be immediately killed. This was not a commandment of YHWH. In fact, YHWH never even commanded such a wall to exist. That dogma created a hatred between the two peoples which Messiah destroyed creating one new man and so, making peace.
I disagree. From verse 7-33, the subject is idolatry including via eating meats sacrificed to idols. We should never knowingly eat such meat. However, if situations arise such as in verses 25-28, we should just eat the meat without question. It is only when we are told the meat was sacrificed to idols that we shouldn't eat it. On the other hand, we are NEVER to eat unclean meat 1) because it was never created to be food and 2) because YHWH directly commanded His people to not eat it. YHWH is absolutely disgusted by His people eating it. That is why He called such "abomination". Unclean meats are nowhere to be found in 1 Corinthians 10.
Davy
Well-Known Member
You misunderstand. Eating unhealthy is not good for our body, but it is not a salvation issue. And if that's all there is to eat, Paul said eat, asking no questions. Yet that did not change God's health laws. A buzzard is still unhealthy for us to eat, because God created it as a scavenger to cleanse the earth. The meats He created to be received by us are those like the cow, deer, elk, etc., meats that eat grains.
The Greek word dogmasin in Col.2:14 is about law, whether civil law, ceremonial law, or religious law. Jesus nailed the blood ordinances in God's law to His cross, involving ceremonial and religious laws of the old covenant. Ephesians 2 specifically mentions "the law of commandments contained in ordinances (dogmasin)".
So the subject in those verses most definitely is about a portion of God's laws involving the old covenant. That's what Jesus nailed to His cross. He did not nail God's laws against murder, sodomy, thefts, perjury, rape, etc., to His cross. Those are still in effect today, even among Christian society. Nor did Jesus change God's health laws. Unclean food is still unclean to us Christians. It's just not a religious requirement anymore in the New Covenant.
You can disagree all you want, living on scavenger food will be unhealthy to your body. It's about the science of God's creation, not religion.
gadar perets
Well-Known Member
I never said it was a salvation issue. However, it is a sin issue.
Its about doing what YHWH forbids; eating unclean meat. Just curious...do you include the Sabbath among those laws that were not nailed to the cross?
Davy
Well-Known Member
Col 2:14-17
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
KJV
What do you think that Col.2:16 verse means?
Like I said, not eating from the clean list God gave will mean our bodies may not remain healthy, but it is NOT a Salvation issue.
gadar perets
Well-Known Member
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. KJV
It was the deceivers of verses 4,8, and 18 that were judging the Colossians regarding the things mentioned in verse 16. They had been imposing their man-made commandments and traditions upon the Colossians. Paul told them not to allow anyone to judge them concerning those matters. An important addition was made in the KJV that does not appear in any Greek manuscript. The word "is " in verse 17 was added, which changes the meaning of Paul's statement. That is why it is written in italics. Retaining the word "is" implies the thought of shadow vs. reality. In other words, Messiah fulfilled the shadow of the things mentioned in verse 16. However, if you remove the added word "is", it implies that we should not let any man outside the body of Messiah judge us in respect to these things. Indeed that is in line with the context of Paul's previous statements. Notice Colossians 1:18 & 24 and Colossians 2:19, all of which teach us that the body of Messiah/Christ is the church or all true believers.Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. KJV
There are several other points worthy of mention concerning verses 16 & 17. Verse 17 states that these things "are" a shadow of things "to come" not that they "were" a shadow that was now fulfilled. Paul wrote this epistle approximately 30 years after
Messiah's death and resurrection and yet he still spoke of them as unfulfilled shadows of something in the future.
Davy
Well-Known Member
The phrase "Which are a shadow of things to come" is separated by a semi-colon, and stands as the subject about the world to come. It is pointing to Christ's future thousand years reign after His return. Now if you attend a Church that doesn't believe in Christ's future thousand years reign, I can see why you would want to change the meaning of that. Doesn't work though.
In verses 20-23 Paul makes it plain he is speaking of ordinances, ceremonial worship, and ritual of the old covenant. It's not about someone on the outside judging us for not keeping the various sabbaths of the old feasts, and etc. It's includes even brethren trying to judge a believer, when that only belongs to Christ to judge.
In my opinion, the reason why we are no longer held to the ordinances of ritual worship, the old feasts, sabbaths, meats and drink, etc., is because not only because no one even in Old Testament times could keep them all, but because Christ's Salvation is not about all that. But in His future Milennium reign, there will be established feast days requirements (see end of Zech.14; Ezek.40-47). It's those future things that are a shadow of things to come.
gadar perets
Well-Known Member
You do realize that punctuation marks are not inspired, right? It is not referring to "the world to come", but the realities of those shadows that are yet to come. The holy days, new moons and Sabbaths are shadows of different things. They do not all point to the world to come. Actually, only Sukkot and the weekly Sabbath point to the Millennium.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Messiah from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances [man made dogma],
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using, after the commandments and doctrines of men?
These verses say absolutely nothing about YHWH's commandments, only man's commandments and doctrines.
As for believers judging other believers;
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Brethren that sin are to be judged by their brethren. YHWH will judge outsiders. Paul fully expected the Corinthians to judge their brother's sin.
Our sins against YHWH's holy law does not abolish His laws. That is why we have Yeshua. If we sin, we go to him for forgiveness and cleansing. Then we endeavor to "go and sin no more". Paul said we do not make the law void through faith, but we "establishes the law" (Romans 3:31).
Are you saying God gave Israel feast days, but for the church they are abolished, but then they will be brought back in the Millennium? If so, I totally disagree. The feast days portray the plan of salvation. They will not be abolished until the plan is totally fulfilled.
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Davy
Well-Known Member
No, Paul was speaking specifically about the ordinances in the law which Jesus nailed to His cross. So yes, Paul WAS... speaking of certain commandments, the commandments in ordinances like the blood ordinances, religious ritual and such. And that INCLUDED the keeping of the sabbaths that were included in the feast days, like the feast of unleavened bread has a high sabbath at the start and end of it. We are no longer held to those sabbaths, or the OT feasts. There WILL... be the feast of tabernacles held in Christ's future Milennium reign (see end of Zechariah 14).
What Paul was talking about in the Col.2 verses about not being judged isn't about casting someone out of the Church for not holding those things. You sound like that's what YOU wish Paul had said. But he didn't. THOSE IN CHRIST JESUS NO LONGER HAVE TO KEEP THE SABBATH FEASTS, NOR THE FEASTS, NOR THE NEW MOONS, NOR THE HEALTHY LIST OF MEATS OR DRINK. We are... still to keep the sabbath, which Christianity observes Sunday because of Jesus having risen on the 1st day of the week.
That's off topic, but you should go over to the thread that hates that idea which I have been trying to explain to them, for Richard thinks there is no need for us to repent of sins we may commit in the future after having believed on Jesus. Apostle Paul showed in 1 Timothy 1 and Galatians 5 that many of God's laws are still in effect, and apply to the Church also. The difference Paul showed is that IF... we walk by The Spirit then we are not under the law. Walk by the flesh and it means doing things that are against God's laws.
The feast of tabernacles is shown established in Christ's future Milennium:
Zech 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV
At this present time today, Christ's Church is not held to keep any of the OT feasts.
gadar perets
Well-Known Member
These words are merely your opinion. You have no Scripture to backup your view. Show me one Scripture where the Greek word "dogma" or a variation of it is used in the Septuagint to refer to YHWH's commandments or ordinances or any holy day sabbath.
Again, mere opinion. Also, the "sabbath" Christianity observes on Sunday is NOT the "Sabbath" of Almighty YHWH. It is a pitiful substitution for the true day of rest and causes untold millions to reject YHWH's commandment so they can keep their own tradition.
It makes no sense to say we don't have to keep any OT feasts now (including the Feast of Tabernacles, but we will in the Millennium. The fact is, we must keep all the feasts since they are unfulfilled shadows. Do you have a fulfillment for the Feast of Trumpets? If not, how can it be abolished if the reality/fulfillment has not come?
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