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Health Laws

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by Christina, Jan 11, 2009.

  1. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    While some scholars assert that the biblical laws were not given for reasons of health, this same commentary states that "the spiritual and hygienic reasons for the laws may still be affirmed. They are remarkably valuable in the area of public health… These laws protected Israel from bad diet, dangerous vermin and communicable diseases... These were rule-of-thumb laws that God gave in His wisdom to a people who could not know the reason for the provision" (ibid.). Thus, the idea that these biblical laws are outdated and old-fashioned and have nothing to do with health is simply nonsense! Dietary Laws The most familiar biblical health laws define clean and unclean meats—creatures that are acceptable to eat and those that are not—yet most people (even theologians!) have little or no understanding of the medically sound reasons behind these instructions! The scientific wisdom behind the biblical dietary laws is seldom taught today; instead, these laws are commonly viewed as Old Testament regulations that are no longer applicable. However, as Eerdmans’ Handbook of the Bible comments: "These lists [of clean and unclean creatures] have a significance often ignored. Far from being based on fad or fancy, these lists emphasize a fact not discovered until late in the last century… that animals carry diseases dangerous to man" (p. 176). In fact, the same animals labeled unclean in Scripture still carry parasitic diseases that are still dangerous to human beings today! "Clean" land animals are ruminants—grazing animals such as cattle, sheep, deer and elk—whose digestive tracts are designed to turn grass that human beings cannot digest into meat that we can digest. Most unclean animals are carnivores or scavengers that can transmit dangerous diseases to human beings. Pigs eat roots and grains, rather than grass, and thus are ecological competitors to human beings. Clean fish have fins and scales. Unclean aquatic organisms like clams and oysters are filter feeders that purify water, and that concentrate poisonous chemicals and pathologic bacteria and viruses in their tissues. Eating an oyster is like eating your vacuum cleaner bag—yet modern connoisseurs do not like to think about this! Crabs and lobsters are scavengers that eat dead things on the bottom of bodies of water. Most unclean birds are carnivores or scavengers. God in His wisdom inspired laws that protect humans from contracting dangerous diseases, but also protect "nature’s clean up crew" by making them "off limits" as food for mankind (for more information on this subject, request our free reprint article, Do You Really Want to Eat That?). These biological principles still operate today. As a point of illustration: the SARS outbreak was traced to an area in southern China where civet cats (an unclean animal) are eaten as a delicacy! However, the laws of clean and unclean meats are not the only biblical instructions that concern diet. In Leviticus 3:17, we read that "you shall eat neither fat nor blood" (cf. Leviticus 7:23–27). One of the most significant discoveries in the last century was that high fat diets are linked to increased levels of heart disease, stroke, cancer of the colon and breast and a host of other pathologies—including obesity—that bring additional complications. Our challenge is to learn to recognize major sources of fat in our diet (visible fats on meat, fatty cuts of meat—like bacon, generous amounts of heavy dressings, spoonfuls of oil, etc.), and reduce our intake of fats that are high in calories and often high in saturated fats. It has also become painfully obvious in recent decades that contaminated blood and blood products can transmit AIDS and hepatitis. The simple principle of avoiding fat and blood is a powerful principle of prevention—if it is followed—because it still works today! Biblical principles also cover the use of plant foods—carbohydrates. Ezekiel was instructed to make a nutritious bread from "wheat, barley, beans, lentils, millet and spelt" (Ezekiel 4:9). This was a multigrain bread containing complex carbohydrates for energy, different kinds of fiber and multiple amino acids for proteins and bodybuilding. It was not a highly refined product like today’s common breads that have most of their nutrients removed, then are misleadingly called "enriched" when a few nutrients are added back. The Bible advises us to use sweets like honey or other simple sugars sparingly (Proverbs 25:16; 27). We are warned against overeating—gluttony (Proverbs 28:7). Modern books on health give the same advice! The biblical dietary guidelines are not old-fashioned, burdensome regulations—they are divinely inspired guidelines that have taken mankind’s science thousands of years to understand!http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/cgi-bin/tw/t...item=1104248743
     
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  2. gadar perets

    gadar perets Member

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    I know this is an old thread, but I'm surprised no one replied to it. I'll just bump it up and give you all another opportunity to reply. Thanks Christina for posting it.

    I'll add a question to assist in discussion. On what Scriptural grounds do Christians abolish the dietary laws?
     
  3. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    I, for one, agree with all of the above.
    It's a known fact that swine have parasites in them that could turn into worms if ingested by humans. Clams and Oysters have to be the dirtiest food on earth; like the O.P. said, those that can't live without them, swallow them without even thinking of what they're eating.

    Also, I learned years ago that babies bleed the least on the 8th day of life. The day when it was the ritual to circumcise babies. I found this amazing since there was no way for this to be known in the O.T. times.
    Medical surveys were not conducted back then.

    As to your question:
    Acts 15:20
    Acts 21:25
    Mathew 15:11

    Although the above O.P. is correct in every way, I do believe we have been freed by Jesus to eat what we wish.
     
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  4. gadar perets

    gadar perets Member

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    Thanks for your reply. I believe the verses you posted are being misunderstood.

    Acts 15:20-21 -
    But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
    For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. ​

    Surely you will agree that there are many more laws the Gentile converts needed to obey than just those four mentioned in verse 20. For example, Gentile converts are not free to murder, commit adultery or steal. The word "For" in verse 21 connects the two verses. Those four laws were only the necessary starting point for the Jews and Gentiles to have fellowship together. The Gentiles would learn the rest of the laws given through Moses as they heard him being preached every Sabbath day.

    Acts 21:25 -
    As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
    Again I would ask, are the Gentile converts obligated to only keep those four laws, but are free to commit murder, adultery and theft? In context, it seems the statement refers only to the sacrificial laws or specifically to offering sacrifices for vows. Paul did as James requested in order to prove the accusations against him were false (that he taught all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs). In other words, Paul was confirming that Moses should still be taught.

    Matthew 15:11 -
    Not that which goes into the mouth defiles a man; but that which comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.
    If we read this verse in context, including verse 2 and verses 12-20, the light of truth shines through.

    The point Yeshua is making is that the indwelling attitude of the individual will determine his actions. He clarifies this in verses 17 and 18, "Do you not yet understand, that whatsoever enters in at the mouth goes into the belly, and is cast out into the draught (sewer)? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man." He then goes on to show that evil thoughts generate evil deeds, which is the root of the problem.

    Mark 7:19 reads, "Because it enters not into his heart, but into his belly, and goes out into the draught, purging all meats." The last three words do not mean all unclean food is now cleansed. Yeshua simply meant that waste food was carried off by the digestive tract.

    The scribes and Pharisees had seen the disciples eat bread without first washing their hands. This was contrary to their traditional beliefs. At that time, however, the disciples only ate clean food. Therefore, the context is eating clean food with unwashed hands. It has nothing to do with eating unclean animal flesh.

    As a result of their question in verse 2, Yeshua rebukes their tradition and their hypocrisy and sums up his statements in Matthew 15:20, "These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashed hands defiles not a man." This chapter has nothing to do with cleansing unclean meat. The issue was centered on tradition and outward ritual cleansing, which made them appear holy. But Yeshua wants us to have complete change of heart and mind, not of the outward appearance.
     
  5. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Hi GP, sorry, been busy and I wanted to give my full attention to this and not hurry.

    Yes. There are more laws that the gentiles will have to follow.
    For instance, feeding the poor, clothing the poor, visiting the sick, behaving as Jesus stated in Mathew 5:3-10, The Beatitudes - Behavior... Blessed are they...

    As to what I highlighted, "observing no such thing", this pertains to the "burdens" which were placed on those in Jerusalem by unauthorized persons that were preaching...it has to do with circumcision most of all. I believe, however, that they were not to eat meat sacrificed to idols or blood.
    Are you saying that Paul taught that circumcision was necessary?
    I believe he taught the opposite.
    Acts 15:9-10, 19
    I believe verse 21 is speaking only to the four laws which did not have to be kept. "For Moses" preached, but James is referring only to the laws which were to be kept and not ALL the Mosaic laws which would have burdened the Gentiles.

    I agree with the above, but I can't connect it to what you're saying.
    Eventually, we come to understand that we can eat even sacrificed meat as long as our heart is not in it. But it does seem to me that the gentiles were being instructed in what they should not do. Perhaps because Paul was not finished with all his theology. In the end, yes, we can eat what we wish.

    But I don't read here in these specific verses about eating with clean hands. I read about food that is strangled or eating blood. Verse 25 speaks about their having heard disturbing instruction, which, to my understanding has to do with circumcision. You feel this is wrong?

    I agree with the above. I believe we agree. Do you agree that circumcision was the burden that was being laid on the gentiles and which was incorrect?
    John 7:24
    Acts 11:2...
    Colossians 3:11
     
  6. gadar perets

    gadar perets Member

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    I was referring to laws of Moses of which most Christians keep many. Pastors especially love the tithing laws. Since Christians still keep nine of the Ten Commandments, the greatest commandment (Love YHWH) and the second greatest commandment (Love thy neighbor), then that shows that Gentile converts must keep more than only those four laws of Moses.

    1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. NASB
    There are NO laws of YHWH that are burdens. It is the misuse of the law that is the burden. When the law is used as a means of justification and/or salvation, that is the burden. Also, the additional man-made laws the Jews added to Torah were a burden. All of YHWH's laws are founded upon loving YHWH or loving our neighbors. They cannot be burdens.

    It depends on what you mean by "necessary". Necessary for salvation? No. Necessary in order to obey YHWH? Yes. Paul taught that a new Gentile convert did not need to get circumcised, but he did not teach that Gentile converts did not need to have their children circumcised. He also taught that circumcision was not a means to justification and/or salvation. He taught against the misuse of circumcision as such.

    Did you mean to write, "I believe verse 21 is speaking only to the four laws which did have to be kept."? As I said above, their are many laws of Moses that all Gentile converts keep besides those four and they don't consider them a burden. Do you know of any Christians that consider the two greatest commandments or most of the Ten Commandments to be burdens? If not, then your argument is founded upon sinking sand.

    The Jews were saying to eat (clean food) with unwashed hands defiles a person. Yeshua corrected them by saying defilement comes from the heart by breaking YHWH's laws (the laws of Moses) by committing murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witnessing, and blasphemies and not by eating with dirty hands.

    The Jews at this time were living under the Old Covenant which forbid eating unclean meat, blood, etc. The disciple were eating "bread" (either regular bread made with flour or food that was allowed under the Old Covenant). Peter was one of those disciples and, as Acts 10:14 shows, he never ate unclean or common meat. I don't know which verse 25 you are referring to. Please give the book and chapter as well. Matthew 15 and Mark 7 have nothing to do with circumcision, blood or things strangled.

    John 7:24 does not refer to the outward appearance of a man as to whether or not he is circumcised. It refers to the outward appearance of the circumstances surrounding ANY issue. We are not to make superficial judgments about any matter, but are to dig below the outward appearance to find out the deeper issues so we can judge righteously. That is exactly what we need to do with the issue we are discussing. Outwardly, based on erroneous translations and interpretations, it seems as though we can eat anything we want, but when you stop to truly understand what the Word is saying, it yields a totally different perspective upon which we can make a righteous decision to obey the dietary laws.

    As for the use of the word "circumcision" in Acts 11:2 and Colossians 3:11, it refers to the Jews as a people, not to the practice of circumcising the flesh.
     
  7. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Nine of the Ten because we don't keep the Sabbath.
    As to keeping the laws, I see it like this:
    Mathew 16:24 NASB
    Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

    So whatever that cross may be: Caring for a sick person, going to school, helping someone in any way, keeping the house clean (anything we do we do for the glory to God) we are to pick up that cross daily and follow our Lord.

    BUT
    Mathew 11:30 NASB
    30“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

    Whether it be the LAW which we are to follow, or whether it be what I had mentioned above, with Jesus' help we are able to better do what we are required to do while living our life.

    As to the Law, let me say that we are not UNDER the Law, but it is still required of us to follow God's Law, not all the laws Moses had written.



    Agreed.


    I'm confused now.
    Acts 15:21
    Acts 15 is talking about how "outsiders" were going to be let in.
    Some had worried the new converts by stating that they had to be circumcised and follow the laws of Moses. Paul, Barnabas, James and Peter were discussing this and James made the decision that the laws of Moses did NOT have to be kept except for the laws of not being connected to Idols, to guard the laws of morality (fornication and marriage) and not to serve food offensive to Jewish Christians (blood).
    They were saying that these laws ARE to be kept, or I should say, WERE to be kept so as not to offend the Jewish converts and the Gentile converts.

    However, WE are not under these laws because Jesus said that it matters what goes OUT OF the mouth and not what goes INTO the mouth...so at some point it was no longer necessary to keep dietary laws.

    Is this clear?

    Agreed.


    i'm referring to Acts 15, which was the chapter you had quoted.
    Mathew 15:11 is Jesus stating that it matters not what enters into the mouth.
    Mark 7:18 Ditto
    Mark 7:6 refers to how Jesus looks at the heart, as you've stated.


    And herein is the problem.
    Then why does JESUS say that it matters not what enters into the mouth but what comes out of it??

    [/QUOTE]As for the use of the word "circumcision" in Acts 11:2 and Colossians 3:11, it refers to the Jews as a people, not to the practice of circumcising the flesh.[/QUOTE]
    Correct. I checked and one bible has "those of the circumcision".
    My bad.

    I think what is left to be said is why does Jesus seem to say something different than Paul, Barnabas, James and Peter said?
    Namely, THEY are saying NOT TO EAT.
    Jesus is saying that it's OK TO EAT.
     
  8. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    I'm still waiting for any of you who still insist on saying that all the old laws and the things Jesus said to do...are not being done!! ?o_O

    In what you referenced here for the "beatitudes"...that you and others say we must keep.. why are they not kept if Jesus told us to, as you believe?

    Again I say...do you still have both your eyes?
    Do you still have both your hands?
    Seen many Christians without eyes or hands?
    No, neither have I.

    These were not as you and others say.." Commands"
    Fran, if you get quiet before God and ask Him...He will show you that Jesus said all these things in Matt 5 ...which by the way, far exceeded the 10 commandments!!!
    God will show you that Jesus was showing those who were blind and could not see spiritually, that the so called Beatitudes were impossible to keep...He was "getting His message across" but many then...just as now cannot and will not hear Him....He showed clearly...He even Exaggerated on the 10 Commands to prove His point and "raise the bar"...showing that mankind, human kind, cannot keep the laws..that is why God sent His Son....
    IF man could keep the law, then Jesus need not have been sent, need not have suffered and need not have died.

    No one is without sin , no one keeps the law...all of them added to the 10. It cannot be done, you can't, I can't.....JESUS CAN AND DID!
    Hence a Saviour!
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  9. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    I know this BG.
    I used to teach the Mosaic Covenant. What more can i say?
    I know all about how the LAW could not be kept.

    However, I do not agree with you that Jesus said anything to show us we could not do it. I do hear this these days.
    Whatever Jesus said, He was not wasting His breath. He was saying EVERYTHING He said to show us how to live a good life.
    He went so far as to say that it would be better to be without an eye than to sin. I can't convince you of this... it's something you have to come to understand on your own...
     
  10. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    th.jpg
    Haha! If you say so...:rolleyes:

    Bless you cotton sock...if you wear them. @GodsGrace xx
     
  11. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Sure I wear them. In the winter if it ever gets cold enough, which ain't often.

    But I don't know what this expression means,,,but it sounds nice.
    But a little sarcastic too.

    BG, we only know what we know. Till God doesn't show us, it does no good. Till then, we're OK. He knows how dumb and silly we all are!
    I could see Him many times shaking His head, no, no, no...
     
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  12. gadar perets

    gadar perets Member

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    Another major mistake for another thread.


    Yeshua taught us to go and sin no more. Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). We have an obligation and mandate to not sin against YHWH or our neighbor. Feeding our neighbor pig causes him/her to sin and it absolutely disgusts YHWH. That is why eating unclean flesh is called an "abomination". It is irrelevant whether Christians believe it is sin or not. YHWH knows it is sin because it transgresses His law. Love for our neighbor should prevent us from causing him to sin. It is therefore imperative to understand what the Word says about this issue.

    What does not being "under the law" mean to you? How do you decide which laws of Moses are "required" and which are not? You do realize that the Law of Moses IS the Law of God, correct?


    Yes, you are confused. What you stated is NOT what was happening. The issue was NOT whether or not circumcision and the Law of Moses were to be kept. The issue was whether or not they needed to be kept for salvation (the misuse of the law).

    Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
    Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
    Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Master Yeshua Messiah we shall be saved, even as they.
    The men of verse 1 were misusing the law as a means of salvation rather than a means to live a life of love towards YHWH and man and to identify sin so it could be repented of. We are saved by grace through faith, not by law keeping. However, obedience to the law MUST be a fruit of our salvation. To try to be saved by the law is an unbearable yolk. It is impossible since all men sin and therefore must die.
    You wrote, "Verse 25 speaks about their having heard disturbing instruction, which, to my understanding has to do with circumcision." Acts 15:25 says, "It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,"
    Are you citing the correct reference?

    His words must be understood in context. He sums up the context and his teaching in Matthew 15:20;

    These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashed hands defiles not a man.
    He did not say, "These are the things which defile a man: but to eat unclean meat defiles not a man.

    Yeshua was saying it is OK to eat clean food with dirty hands. The Apostles were not addressing eating with dirty hands in Acts 15. They were addressing being saved by works. As a matter of fact, of the four laws required for Gentile converts, three of them are dietary laws (abstaining from pollutions of idols which includes meat sacrificed to idols, and from things strangled, and from blood). Peter was still not eating anything unclean or common long after Yeshua's supposed nailing the dietary laws to the cross (a false interpretation). Paul taught us to not knowingly eat meat sacrificed to idols and to not eat anything that causes our brother to stumble. He did not teach it was OK to eat unclean meat. James taught us faith without works is dead. Among those works is obedience to the law. A lawless person is a carnally minded person because he refuses to subject himself to the law (Romans 8:7). Most Christians do not fall into that category because they do not refuse to obey willfully. They have been deceived into disobeying.
     
  13. gadar perets

    gadar perets Member

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    They aren't being done. However, we are expected to do them. When we fail, we confess our sin/faults/failings and ask for forgiveness. Then we try not to make the same mistakes again.

    Who says? Feeding and clothing the poor are more important than not committing adultery, idolatry and murder??

    The Beatitudes are not commands to keep. They are characteristics that believers filled with the Spirit should have and will be blessed for.

    Is it too difficult for you to not steal? Do you have trouble abstaining from committing adultery, idolatry, murder, fornication, bearing false witness, making graven images, taking YHWH's name in vain, etc?? I have no trouble obeying those commands. Why do you say the law cannot be kept? Yes, we may fail to keep them occasionally and that is why we have Yeshua as our atoning sacrifice. The more we walk in the Spirit, the less we will break the law. However, our failures to keep the law perfectly do NOT negate the law. It is the law that shows us we failed/sinned (Romans 3:20b) so that we can go to YHWH for forgiveness through Yeshua's atoning work and blood. Without the law telling us we sinned, we would not ask for forgiveness.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
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  14. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Wait.
    Are you saying that because I say the Lord's commandments MUST BE KEPT, that it means I keep them?
    No!
    They must be kept, meaning that we are to strive to keep them.
    I don't know anybody who keeps all the laws.
    We can only give it our best shot...

    But we cannot say that we SHOULD NOT keep them because Jesus raised the bar to show us how difficult it is.

    It was difficult in the O.T. times because people did not have the help of the Holy Spirit. It's much easier to keep the commandments today since we have the Holy Spirit to help us.

    I hope this clarifies things.

    When I say that God DEMANDS, yes I mean that. God does not ask, He demands. This does not mean that we adhere 100% to these demands.
     
  15. Rollo Tamasi

    Rollo Tamasi Well-Known Member

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    How can you place a demand on others that they must keep the laws when you don't?
     
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  16. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    I'm not placing demands.
    Just repeating what the N.T. says.
    Didn't Jesus leave us with commands?
    Are we supposed to follow them?
    Are we going to mess up every now and then?
    Does this mean we give up?
     
  17. Rollo Tamasi

    Rollo Tamasi Well-Known Member

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    I think I give up with you.
    I'm gonna start calling you the roller coaster girl
    Never know where you are coming from or where you are going, but you're always on the fly.
     
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  18. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Is this a compliment?
    I'll take it as a compliment!
    Oh, and look...
    By Grace agrees with you...
    :)
     
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  19. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    I gave his a like because he made me laugh. This whole Site has seemed so off the wall these last couple of days..( more than usual that is) ..I just needed a laugh. I usually give likes to posts that have humour...at the moment things seem a bit heavy, so light relief helps.

    Just as your post made me laugh just now.....

    Maybe it is just me, maybe I am just having a bad week. It seems all my 'bodily bits' are all wearing out at the same time.. lungs, heart , kidneys everything...

    Anyway, thanks for the giggle. x
     
  20. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Anytime dear sister.
    BTW, I felt like that yesterday...
    It passes!
    Oh. And that kidney stone two months ago was a blast!
     
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