Hebrews 1:8 From the Greek

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Grailhunter

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what you are saying, is that the New Testament quotations from the Old, are wrong?

No what I am saying is that I do not know what Hebrew 1:8 is quoting. And I have said that it could be from one the lost books of the Old Testament...I do not know. But I do know there is no reason to think that the Psalm scripture is speaking of Christ.

what you are saying, is that the New Testament quotations from the Old, are wrong? There is no point in even believing in the Holy Bible, as it cannot be trusted, as it has human errors!

Your reasoning is based on nothing, as you do not beileve in the Infalibility of the Bible!

Pointless discussion, might as well be talking to a humanist

And again, do you believe the earth is flat?
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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No what I am saying is that I do not know what Hebrew 1:8 is quoting. And I have said that it could be from one the lost books of the Old Testament...I do not know. But I do know there is no reason to think that the Psalm scripture is speaking of Christ.



And again, do you believe the earth is flat?

It is very clear that Hebrews 1.8 is quoting from Psalm 45, but you won't accept this so we have to end further discussion on this
 

Grailhunter

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It is common knowledge that they believed the earth was flat, did not move, set on a foundation of pillars and the sun and universe revolved around the earth. Have you ever heard of Galileo?

1st Chronicles 16:30
Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved….. The Earth does not rotate or move…..everything…sun, moon, and stars, orbits the earth.

Psalm 104:5
He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.

1st Samuel 2:8
He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap; he seats them with princes and has them inherit a throne of honor. “For the foundations of the earth are the LORD’s; on them he has set the world.

Daniel 4:11
‘The tree grew large and became strong And its height reached to the sky, And it was visible to the end of the whole earth.

Isaiah 11:12
He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth….

Revelation 7:1
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree…..The earth has corners,

Job 28:24
For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens.

Job 37:3
He unleashes his lightning beneath the whole heaven and sends it to the ends of the earth……..the earth has ends…

Jeremiah 51:16
When he utters his voice there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth. He makes lightning for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses.

2nd Peter 3:5
For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,

John 17:24
Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name? Surely you know!

Psalm 19:4-6
Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy. Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them, and there is nothing hidden from its heat.

Psalm 67:7
God shall bless us; let all the ends of the earth fear him!

Psalm 98:3
He has remembered his steadfast love and faithfulness to the house of Israel. All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

Jeremiah 16:19
O Lord, my strength and my stronghold, my refuge in the day of trouble, to you shall the nations come from the ends of the earth and say: “Our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, worthless things in which there is no profit.

1st Samuel 2:10
The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces; against them he will thunder in heaven. The Lord will judge the ends of the earth; he will give strength to his king and exalt the power of his anointed.”

Psalm 19:4
Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun,
[The ends of the world…..the ends of the earth….the four corners!! This was a big concern with sailors….that they would fall off the end of the world.]

Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened……windows in the filament.

Genesis 7:2
The fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,

Isaiah 24:18
He who flees at the sound of the terror shall fall into the pit, and he who climbs out of the pit shall be caught in the snare. For the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.

Proverbs 8:27
I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

Proverbs 8:29
And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day.

Psalms 75:
When the earth totters, and all its inhabitants, it is I who keep steady its pillars.……the earth set on pillars.

Job 9:6
Who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars tremble;

Ecclesiastes 1:5
The sun rises, and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises……there is a place where the sun rises.

Habukkuk 3:11
The sun and moon stood still in their place at the light of your arrows as they sped, at the flash of your glittering spear.

Joshua 10:12-13
At that time Joshua spoke to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, “Sun, stand still at Gibeon, and moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.”And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day……It would be that the earth stopped rotating not the sun and moon stopping.

Of course this is a little off topic so if you want to start a thread on the flat earth....
 

Grailhunter

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Because you cannot admit that Jesus Christ is YHWH

Oh, NO!
Yahweh makes it clear that He is the only one and there is no one like Him. A god with three aspect is strictly Pagan.

Yahweh, God the Father, Creator of heaven and earth and Adam and Eve.
Yeshua, God the Son, Savior and Messiah,
The Holy Spirit the unnamed God, guide, strengthener, teacher.

And no I do not believe the one God formula for the Trinity. The word Trinity is not in the Bible and it is a scam.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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Oh, NO!
Yahweh makes it clear that He is the only one and there is no one like Him. A god with three aspect is strictly Pagan.

Yahweh, God the Father, Creator of heaven and earth and Adam and Eve.
Yeshua, God the Son, Savior and Messiah,
The Holy Spirit the unnamed God, guide, strengthener, teacher.

And no I do not believe the one God formula for the Trinity. The word Trinity is not in the Bible and it is a scam.

UNBIBLICAL rubbish
 

Webers_Home

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It is believed by some (I won't say who) that Psalm 45 applies to every
Messianic king each in their turn, beginning with David.
_
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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"πρὸς δὲ τὸν υἱόν, Ὁ θρόνος σου, ὁ κύριος"

How would you translate this Greek into English?

I know that scripture shouldn't be taken out of context and translated to prove a belief someone has. There are some Bible translations that translate Hebrews 1:8 as, "But with reference to the Son: ‘God is your [the Son’s] throne forever and ever.’” This shows that Jesus’ throne, his office or authority as a sovereign, has its source in YHWH the Almighty God.
But other translations translate the scripture Hebrews 1:8 as, "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.” So, they feel that Jesus is shown to be the same as Almighty God. But not all Trinitarian scholars agree that Hebrews 1:8 should be translated this way.

As I said I don't agree with taking scriptures out of context to try to prove a belief. The context of Hebrews 1:8,9 in many translations, either in the main text or in the margin, Hebrews 1:9 reads, “God, your God, anointed you.” This makes it clear that the one addressed in verse eight is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him. So anyone trying to prove Hebrews 1:8 proves Jesus is God is ignoring and therefore contradicting Hebrews 1:9

Also, it should be understood that Hebrews 1:8, 9 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6, 7, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Surely the writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God.
 
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ByGraceThroughFaith

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I know that scripture shouldn't be taken out of context and translated to prove a belief someone has. There are some Bible translations that translate Hebrews 1:8 as, "But with reference to the Son: ‘God is your [the Son’s] throne forever and ever.’” This shows that Jesus’ throne, his office or authority as a sovereign, has its source in YHWH the Almighty God.
But other translations translate the scripture Hebrews 1:8 as, "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.” So, they feel that Jesus is shown to be the same as Almighty God. But not all Trinitarian scholars agree that Hebrews 1:8 should be translated this way.

As I said I don't agree with taking scriptures out of context to try to prove a belief. The context of Hebrews 1:8,9 in many translations, either in the main text or in the margin, Hebrews 1:9 reads, “God, your God, anointed you.” This makes it clear that the one addressed in verse eight is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him. So anyone trying to prove Hebrews 1:8 proves Jesus is God is ignoring and therefore contradicting Hebrews 1:9

Also, it should be understood that Hebrews 1:8, 9 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6, 7, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Surely the writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God.

You are right that the words in Hebrews 1:8 and 9 are an addreess, and in the Original Hebrew as well as the Greek Old Testament, the LXX, the translations of the Jews Aquila and Symmachus, and the Jewish Aramaic Targum, we have the vocative case. This means that the Father is addressing Jesus Christ, and the correct way to translate this is, "Your Throne O God...therefore O God Your God"

The point of the OP, "πρὸς δὲ τὸν υἱόν, Ὁ θρόνος σου, ὁ κύριος", is to show that no one would translate this as "the Lord is Your Throne", where the only change is "κύριος", for the actual text, "θεος”. It would be understood as the vocative in address. The only reason that there is any objection in translating the Greek "Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ Θεὸς...ὁ Θεός ὁ Θεός σου”, as "Your Throne O God...therefore O God Your God", is because of the fact that these words are addressed by God the Father, "πρὸς δὲ τὸν Υἱόν", that is, to the Lord Jesus Christ. This shows the Father as addressing Jesus Christ, as GOD, and also shows, that there are Two distinct Persons Who are equally called God. Those who deny that Jesus Christ is GOD, and that GOD in the Bible is not "Unitarian", will indeed reject any reading or verse that is against their "theology".

I have shown that even the Jews themselves, in their earlier works, and some Unitarians, do understand Psalm 45:5-7 and Hebrews 1:8-9. as a direct address by the Father to Jesus Christ, which would make Jesus Christ GOD, as Spoken by the Father.

There are passages in the Old Testament, which are Prophecies that have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ, as we have here in Hebrews 1:8-9. We have the same in verses 5 and 6, and 10-12, which are also from the Old Testament, that are Prophecies applied to Jesus Christ, even though in the context they originally are in the Old Testament, the words may not have any reference to the Coming Messiah. This can be seen from verse 5,

"and again, I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son"

Which is quoted from 2 Samuel 7:14, where it is clear that the rest of the text cannot be have anything to do with this quotation. As it goes on to say: "if he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men"! Though this is how the text goes on to read, yet is can never be used of Jesus Christ, Who is sinless (see, Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:24; Luke 1:35; John 8:29; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 2:22; 1 John 3:5, etc)

Then Matthew 2:15

"...that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 'out of Egypt have I called My Son"

Which is a quotation from Hosea 11:1, where the first part of the verse is speaking of the nation Israel, "When Israel a child, then I loved him..."; which does not apply to Jesus Christ.

In fulfilment of prophesy, only what is quoted is what we are to be concerned with. As often the context from which it is taken in the Old Testament, has no bearing with the quotation in the New Testament.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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If you really know this, why not name the translation?

here are some of the LIBERAL versions, that are according to their personal beliefs

James Moffatt, Edgar Goodspeed, "God is your throne"

Then we have the Unitarians, William Newcome, "God is thy throne"; George Noyes, "thy throne O God"

Interesting that Noyes, a Unitarian, actually is honest enough to give what the Greek actually says. On John 1:1, he is also right, "and the Word was God", and in John 1:18, he accepts the reading "GOD" and not the corrupt "SON". These verses actually destroy his own personal theology!

Another Unitarian, Dr George Winer, the who was a Greek scholar, says on Hebrews 1:8

“The nominative (with the article) is sometimes used in an address, particularly in calling or commanding, thus taking the place of the vocative…H. i.8” (A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek, p.227)

Which would make the reading "Your Throne O God", to be the right English, and not, "God is Your Throne"

Even the Jehovah’s Witnesses, in both their Kingdom Interlinear New Testaments, 1969 and 1985, read in the English translation under the Greek text, "the throne of you the God”. A clear acknowledgement that Jesus Christ is GOD!

Even those who reject/deny/oppose that Jesus Christ is GOD, and therefore YHWH, agree that the Bible does indeed say that Jesus Christ is GOD.