Hebrews 1:8 From the Greek

[Grailhunter]

here are some of the LIBERAL versions, that are according to their personal beliefs

James Moffatt, Edgar Goodspeed, "God is your throne"

Then we have the Unitarians, William Newcome, "God is thy throne"; George Noyes, "thy throne O God"

Interesting that Noyes, a Unitarian, actually is honest enough to give what the Greek actually says. On John 1:1, he is also right, "and the Word was God", and in John 1:18, he accepts the reading "GOD" and not the corrupt "SON". These verses actually destroy his own personal theology!

Another Unitarian, Dr George Winer, the who was a Greek scholar, says on Hebrews 1:8

“The nominative (with the article) is sometimes used in an address, particularly in calling or commanding, thus taking the place of the vocative…H. i.8” (A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek, p.227)

Which would make the reading "Your Throne O God", to be the right English, and not, "God is Your Throne"

Even the Jehovah’s Witnesses, in both their Kingdom Interlinear New Testaments, 1969 and 1985, read in the English translation under the Greek text, "the throne of you the God”. A clear acknowledgement that Jesus Christ is GOD!

Even those who reject/deny/oppose that Jesus Christ is GOD, and therefore YHWH, agree that the Bible does indeed say that Jesus Christ is GOD.

Not sufficient at all.
You need to find a translation of Psalm 45:6 that includes the phrase "But onto the Son He says....
I understand that there are some that believe that Christ and the Holy Spirit were in the Old Testament. But in no way does Yahweh function as a trio in the Old Testament, or that there are three Gods in one, but to the contrary Yahweh state over and over again that He is the only God in the Old Testament....They do not talk to each other or refer to each other in the Old Testament. The Jewish religion is absolutely monolithic and still is today. Which is one of reasons they rejected Yeshua as the messiah. The other reason is that they were expecting the messiah to be a human warlord king. This is verified in history because they were sizing up various military leaders for the role of the messiah during the revolts that happened before the New Testament period.

What Hebrews 1:8 is referring to is not in the canon of the Bible. I understand the debate will continue but you will not find definitive proof of it in the Old Testament. The Old Testament involves several centuries at which time Yahweh would have either described Himself as a trio or acknowledged Yeshua. This is part of the Mosaic Law that forbids acknowledging another God. And of course you will not find any example of anyone worshiping the Son....Yeshua. It is just not there.

Then he said, “Tomorrow.” So he said, “May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the Lord our God. Exodus 18:10

For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth. Exodus 9:14

There is no one holy like the Lord, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God. 1st Samuel 2:2

For this reason You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 2nd Samuel 7:22

O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 1st Chronicles 17:20

He said, “O Lord, the God of Israel, there is no God like You in heaven above or on earth beneath, keeping covenant and showing loving kindness to Your servants who walk before You with all their heart, 1st King 8:23

Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Isaiah 46:9






Then he said, “Tomorrow.” So he said, “May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the Lord our God. Exodus 18:10


For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth. Exodus 9:14


There is no one holy like the Lord, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God. 1st Samuel 2:2


For this reason You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 2nd Samuel 7:22


O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 1st Chronicles 17:20


He said, “O Lord, the God of Israel, there is no God like You in heaven above or on earth beneath, keeping covenant and showing loving kindness to Your servants who walk before You with all their heart, 1st King 8:23


Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Isaiah 46:9

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Not sufficient at all.
You need to find a translation of Psalm 45:6 that includes the phrase "But onto the Son He says....
I understand that there are some that believe that Christ and the Holy Spirit were in the Old Testament. But in no way does Yahweh function as a trio in the Old Testament, or that there are three Gods in one, but to the contrary Yahweh state over and over again that He is the only God in the Old Testament....They do not talk to each other or refer to each other in the Old Testament. The Jewish religion is absolutely monolithic and still is today. Which is one of reasons they rejected Yeshua as the messiah. The other reason is that they were expecting the messiah to be a human warlord king. This is verified in history because they were sizing up various military leaders for the role of the messiah during the revolts that happened before the New Testament period.

What Hebrews 1:8 is referring to is not in the canon of the Bible. I understand the debate will continue but you will not find definitive proof of it in the Old Testament. The Old Testament involves several centuries at which time Yahweh would have either described Himself as a trio or acknowledged Yeshua. This is part of the Mosaic Law that forbids acknowledging another God. And of course you will not find any example of anyone worshiping the Son....Yeshua. It is just not there.

either you accept that the entire Holy Bible in the Original Autographs, the 66 Books are the Inspired, Infallible Word of God, or you don't. it is that simple. If you don't, then you can take it up with the Lord directly, if you do, then you will not have a problem with passages like Hebrews 1:8

The Jews were and are still blind to Who God really is, though many can now see the Truth about THE MESSIAH, Jesus!

 

[Grailhunter]

either you accept that the entire Holy Bible in the Original Autographs, the 66 Books are the Inspired, Infallible Word of God, or you don't. it is that simple. If you don't, then you can take it up with the Lord directly, if you do, then you will not have a problem with passages like Hebrews 1:8

The Jews were and are still blind to Who God really is, though many can now see the Truth about THE MESSIAH, Jesus!

I am just saying that Yahweh is not a liar. And Hebrews 1:8 is not referring to anything in the Old Testament.

The Jews were and are still blind to Who God really is, though many can now see the Truth about THE MESSIAH, Jesus!

But was the Old Testament blind and lying? And Jesus is not Christ's name. No "J's" can be in the Bible.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

I am just saying that Yahweh is not a liar. And Hebrews 1:8 is not referring to anything in the Old Testament.

The Jews were and are still blind to Who God really is, though many can now see the Truth about THE MESSIAH, Jesus!

But was the Old Testament blind and lying? And Jesus is not Christ's name. No "J's" can be in the Bible.

you are one of the very FEW people who say, "Hebrews 1:8 is not referring to anything in the Old Testament", which has to do with your own views, and not what the Bible actually says.

and if you don't accept that Jesus is the Messiah, then you are a false witness by calling yourself a "Christian", which is for those who accept and follow Jesus as THE MESSIAH

 

[Grailhunter]

you are one of the very FEW people who say, "Hebrews 1:8 is not referring to anything in the Old Testament", which has to do with your own views, and not what the Bible actually says.

LOL Beliefs, Truths, Facts. It does not matter if I am one of the very few....what is the truth? If it is not in the Old Testament, that is the truth. You can believe anything you want....that does not mean it is truth or fact.

and if you don't accept that Jesus is the Messiah, then you are a false witness by calling yourself a "Christian", which is for those who accept and follow Jesus as THE MESSIAH

Resorting to false accusations in a debate is showing your character...I never said that Yeshua is not the messiah. But Jesus is not the name of Yeshua...the Messiah. No one knows where the word Jesus came from....the letter J cannot be in the Bible for persons, places, or things....look it up.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

LOL Beliefs, Truths, Facts. It does not matter if I am one of the very few....what is the truth? If it is not in the Old Testament, that is the truth. You can believe anything you want....that does not mean it is truth or fact.



Resorting to false accusations in a debate is showing your character...I never said that Yeshua is not the messiah. But Jesus is not the name of Yeshua...the Messiah. No one knows where the word Jesus came from....the letter J cannot be in the Bible for persons, places, or things....look it up.

right, you are not interested in knowing Bible Truth, then I suggest you try another forum!

 

[Grailhunter]

right, you are not interested in knowing Bible Truth, then I suggest you try another forum!

That is the problem...you have no interest in truth.

 

[Grailhunter]

right, you are not interested in knowing Bible Truth, then I suggest you try another forum!

Getting back to the topic if you were honest and truthful, you would either find Hebrews 1:8 in the Old Testament or admit it is not there.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Getting back to the topic if you were honest and truthful, you would either find Hebrews 1:8 in the Old Testament or admit it is not there.

there is nothing to "admit", as I believe the WHOLE Bible, in The 66 Books in the Original, IS Inspired by God the Holy Spirit, and this includes Hebrews 1:8 as it reads.

Your argument is with God, for calling Him a liar and deceiver!

 

[Grailhunter]

there is nothing to "admit", as I believe the WHOLE Bible, in The 66 Books in the Original, IS Inspired by God the Holy Spirit, and this includes Hebrews 1:8 as it reads.

Your argument is with God, for calling Him a liar and deceiver!

You are shooting blanks! Again an empty accusation. I did not say God is a liar.

And you are dodging the issue.....the whole Bible you say? So Hebrews 1:8 is not quoting the Old Testament? If you think it is produce the scripture.

It is the topic of your thread and you are dodging it.

 

[tigger 2]

Examining the Trinity: Hebrews 1:8 - “Thy Throne, O God”

if we look at some respected trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering.

Oxford professor and famous trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, has been described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”

NSB - God is your throne

Mace - "God is thy throne….”

Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’

Another world-acclaimed scholar of trinitarian Christendom has translated this verse similarly and made some interesting comments. Trinitarian Dr. William Barclay,

“world-renowned Scottish New Testament interpreter, was noted as a profound scholar and a writer of extraordinary gifts .... He was the minister of Trinity Church, Renfrew, Scotland, and, later, Professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism at the University of Glasgow.”

Dr. Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as: “God is your throne for ever and ever.”

Noted trinitarian (Southern Baptist) New Testament Greek scholar Dr. A. T. Robertson acknowledges that either “Thy throne, O God” or “God is thy throne”/“thy throne is God” may be proper renderings: “Either makes good sense.” - p. 339, Word Pictures in the New Testament.

The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s, and the New World Translation’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).

Even Young’s Concise Bible Commentary (written by the famous trinitarian author of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible) admits: “[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered ‘God is thy throne ...’ in either case it is applicable to the mediatorial throne only.”

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Examining the Trinity: Hebrews 1:8 - “Thy Throne, O God”

from this article, there is a quote, the link is well BIASED, being that of a JEHOVAHS WITNESS, who knows ZERO Greek!

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

This is what is known as selective quoting!

what Moule says is

"Luke viii.54 ὁ Θεὸς (Heb. i.8, which looks similar, may conceivably be a true Nominative, construed so as to mean, Thy throne is God; but see commentators in loc)"

The important words here are, MAY BE! In other words, IF "Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ Θεὸς", were in the Nominative, then it could be understood as ""Thy throne is God". BUT, it is NOT ia true Nominative, but, the Nominative as Vocative, as is seen from "πρὸς δὲ τὸν Υἱόν", which is a continued ADDRESS by the Father to Jesus Christ, which is continued from verse 5, "Τίνι γὰρ εἶπέν", where it is also Addresses by the Father concerning Jesus Christ. The Unitarian Greek scholar, George Winer says, "The nominative (with the article) is sometimes used in an address, particularly in calling or commanding, thus taking the place of the vocative…H. i.8” (A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek, p.227). the Unitarian NT by George Noyes, reads "Thy throne O God"

The LXX which is a translation by Jewish scholars before the Time of Jesus Christ on earth, on Psalm 45:6, is the Vocative, so is the Jewish Targum of the 1st century AD, "The throne of Thy majesty, O Jehovah, abideth for ever and ever.". The Jewish Greek OT's by Aquila and Symmachus, in the 2nd century AD, also understood the Hebrew as Vocative.

Clearly the reading YOUR THRONE O GOD is the correct one!

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Examining the Trinity: Hebrews 1:8 - “Thy Throne, O God”

if we look at some respected trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering.

Oxford professor and famous trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, has been described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”

NSB - God is your throne

Mace - "God is thy throne….”

Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’

Another world-acclaimed scholar of trinitarian Christendom has translated this verse similarly and made some interesting comments. Trinitarian Dr. William Barclay,

“world-renowned Scottish New Testament interpreter, was noted as a profound scholar and a writer of extraordinary gifts .... He was the minister of Trinity Church, Renfrew, Scotland, and, later, Professor of Divinity and Biblical Criticism at the University of Glasgow.”

Dr. Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as: “God is your throne for ever and ever.”

Noted trinitarian (Southern Baptist) New Testament Greek scholar Dr. A. T. Robertson acknowledges that either “Thy throne, O God” or “God is thy throne”/“thy throne is God” may be proper renderings: “Either makes good sense.” - p. 339, Word Pictures in the New Testament.

The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s, and the New World Translation’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).

Even Young’s Concise Bible Commentary (written by the famous trinitarian author of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible) admits: “[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered ‘God is thy throne ...’ in either case it is applicable to the mediatorial throne only.”

William Barclay was a heretic. A T Robertson is wrong, as he is elsewhere. Goodspeed and Moffatt are Liberals!

This destroys all these arguments!, Your Throne O God Now YOU or anyone else on here, prove what I have shown to be wrong? The whole purpose of the OP, is to show the corruption there is in correctly translating these words in Hebrews 1:8

 

[Jim B]

Here is the NET translator's note on Hebrews 1:8, "Or possibly, “Your throne is God forever and ever.” This translation is quite doubtful, however, since (1) in the context the Son is being contrasted to the angels and is presented as far better than they. The imagery of God being the Son’s throne would seem to be of God being his authority. If so, in what sense could this not be said of the angels? In what sense is the Son thus contrasted with the angels? (2) The μέν…δέ (men…de) construction that connects v. 7 with v. 8 clearly lays out this contrast: “On the one hand, he says of the angels…on the other hand, he says of the Son.” Thus, although it is grammatically possible that θεός (theos) in v. 8 should be taken as a predicate nominative, the context and the correlative conjunctions are decidedly against it. Hebrews 1:8 is thus a strong affirmation of the deity of Christ." [my emphasis]

My personal opinion is that "God is your throne" is absurd. God is not a chair.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Here is the NET translator's note on Hebrews 1:8, "Or possibly, “Your throne is God forever and ever.” This translation is quite doubtful, however, since (1) in the context the Son is being contrasted to the angels and is presented as far better than they. The imagery of God being the Son’s throne would seem to be of God being his authority. If so, in what sense could this not be said of the angels? In what sense is the Son thus contrasted with the angels? (2) The μέν…δέ (men…de) construction that connects v. 7 with v. 8 clearly lays out this contrast: “On the one hand, he says of the angels…on the other hand, he says of the Son.” Thus, although it is grammatically possible that θεός (theos) in v. 8 should be taken as a predicate nominative, the context and the correlative conjunctions are decidedly against it. Hebrews 1:8 is thus a strong affirmation of the deity of Christ." [my emphasis]

My personal opinion is that "God is your throne" is absurd. God is not a chair.

The Greek grammar from verses 5-12 is directed to the Superiority of Jesus Christ above the Created angels, etc

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Thus, although it is grammatically possible that θεός (theos) in v. 8 should be taken as a predicate nominative

this is only true, if the words, "πρὸς δὲ τὸν Υἱόν Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ Θεὸς", in verse 8, are not an address to Jesus Christ. What causes problems for some, is that "Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ Θεὸς", is in the Nominative, but, not what is known as "true Nominative", because, like John 20:28, "Ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου", which is also Nominative, the grammar is to be understood as Vocative, because both places Jesus Christ is being ADDRESSED, in Hebrews by the Father, and in John by Thomas.

People like A T Robertson, and Moule and NET, are not sure, because of this. However, it is often in the LXX and NT, where the Greek Nominative is used for the Vocative, in addresses

 

[michaelvpardo]

.


That's the Christianized version of Psalm 45:6/7; there's others.

"Your throne is from God, it is forever and ever" (Stone Tanach)

"Your throne, O judge, [will exist] forever and ever" (Chabad.org)
_

The translators of the Tanach acknowledge that an accurate translation of many verses is unknown or not understood, and all those questionable verses just happen to be messianic verses that apply to Jesus. My paperback copy of the JPS tanach had extensive footnotes pointing this out.