Hellfire and brimstone has given way to eternal separation from God. - Why?

[St. SteVen]

A careful study of the first chapters of Romans will give you that answer.

I'm familiar with the standard bogus apologetic.
Where is the gospel message in creation?

 

[Paul Christensen]

I'm familiar with the standard bogus apologetic.
Where is the gospel message in creation?

I'm puzzled: What "standard bogus apologetic" is that?

 

[quietthinker]

Good post.
I don't question whether some feel that they can't go on with life. And that some are so ashamed that they would rather die.
What I question is whether God will allow them to make that choice ultimately. (permanently)
The good shepherd leaves the ninety-nine to go after the one and carry them back. (against their will, possibly)

I hear you. God donors choice even against his will....Eve made her choice, Jesus was betrayed and killed, Judas suicided. He didn't interfere with mens choices.

Re the ninety nine....It was the inhabitants of our planet who were lost. It was to the inhabitants of our planet he came to search.....and IN HIM were found. The citizens of other Worlds were safe in the fold.

'But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.' (Romans 5:8)

 

[Paul Christensen]

I hear you. God donors choice even against his will....Eve made her choice, Jesus was betrayed and killed, Judas suicided. He didn't interfere with mens choices.

Re the ninety nine....It was the inhabitants of our planet who were lost. It was to the inhabitants of our planet he came to search.....and IN HIM were found. The citizens of other Worlds were safe in the fold.

'But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.' (Romans 5:8)

Although Jesus died on the Cross for all, hence the invitation to believe the Gospel and embrace Christ is open to all people. But Christ and HIs death on the Cross with the removal of the penalty of sin and gift of eternal life will apply only to those who have accepted the invitation and put their trust by faith in Christ. Christ will be of no effect to those who refuse to believe the Gospel and reject Christ.

 

[quietthinker]

I was just remembering Jesus' words from the cross about forgiving those who crucified Him.
With that in mind, what should He do with these terrified individuals that "see the one they have pierced" upon His return?
Switch to revenge?

They will want to run and hide; get away from his presence just like those who accused and brought the woman caught in adultery to him. It tells us, 'from the oldest to the youngest they slunk away'. In other words, the most 'revered, experienced and informed'.
Rev. 6 further tells us they will not just want to hide but actually suicide. I deduct that from, 'calling on the rocks and mountains to fall on them' which sounds like mass suicide to me.

 

[quietthinker]

Although Jesus died on the Cross for all, hence the invitation to believe the Gospel and embrace Christ is open to all people. But Christ and HIs death on the Cross with the removal of the penalty of sin and gift of eternal life will apply only to those who have accepted the invitation and put their trust by faith in Christ. Christ will be of no effect to those who refuse to believe the Gospel and reject Christ.

Many forgiven sinners (which we all are) will prefer death to admitting error/ fault and come to the Saviour.

 

[Aunty Jane]

1 Corinthians 2:8 NIV
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had,
they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Please don’t quote Scripture out of context StS...it demonstrates a choice to quote only a sentence out of a whole passage.....and doing this can make Scripture say whatever you want it to....because you have the context, but choose ignore it, you are actually misquoting the part that seems to support your view.

Paul explains in 1 Cor 2:6-8...
“We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” (NIV)

Not a great translation but it suffices to understand what Paul was saying...

So, the treasures of God’s wisdom, expressed in his eternal purpose, (or what he originally intended for his material creation) are wrapped in a “mystery”, or “hidden wisdom,” which “not one of the rulers of this age” (or any other) would understand. In fact, these treasures are hidden so securely that it is actually impossible for man by his own wisdom to “conceive” these things.
Paul explains why...

“Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” “Who has ever given to God, that God should repay them?” (Rom 11:33-35 NIV)

The ‘riches of God’s wisdom and knowledge’ go down deep....which is why we need deep study....sadly most are too lazy to do their homework, and are happy to be spoon fed Christendom’s doctrines, never questioning their validity.....if they would only dig deeper into God’s word, there is a wealth of knowledge to be had......but it can be confronting to see what Christendom teaches, that the Bible does not.

There is a big picture that Christendom is missing altogether....

 

[quietthinker]

Please don’t quote Scripture out of context StS...it demonstrates a choice to quote only a sentence out of a whole passage.....and doing this can make Scripture say whatever you want it to....because you have the context, but choose ignore it, you are actually misquoting the part that seems to support your view.

Paul explains in 1 Cor 2:6-8...
“We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” (NIV)

Not a great translation but it suffices to understand what Paul was saying...

So, the treasures of God’s wisdom, expressed in his eternal purpose, (or what he originally intended for his material creation) are wrapped in a “mystery”, or “hidden wisdom,” which “not one of the rulers of this age” (or any other) would understand. In fact, these treasures are hidden so securely that it is actually impossible for man by his own wisdom to “conceive” these things.
Paul explains why...

“Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” “Who has ever given to God, that God should repay them?” (Rom 11:33-35 NIV)

The ‘riches of God’s wisdom and knowledge’ go down deep....which is why we need deep study....sadly most are too lazy to do their homework, and are happy to be spoon fed Christendom’s doctrines, never questioning their validity.....if they would only dig deeper into God’s word, there is a wealth of knowledge to be had......but it can be confronting to see what Christendom teaches, that the Bible does not.

There is a big picture that Christendom is missing altogether....

This is the take-away message.....I am deeply studied, others are lazy and wrong, what others are missing, I get....etc
All that is done in your post AJ is glorify yourself, be it a backhanded way.....using scripture as your justification.

 

[St. SteVen]

I'm puzzled: What "standard bogus apologetic" is that?

Romans chapter one, "so they are without excuse."
Is salvation granted for recognizing the creator?

 

[Aunty Jane]

This is the take-away message.....I am deeply studied, others are lazy and wrong, what others are missing, I get....etc
All that is done in your post AJ is glorify yourself, be it a backhanded way.....using scripture as your justification.

I expect that coming from you QT....you sound insecure in your beliefs and you appear to find comfort in it for some reason.

It’s not wrong to be confident about what you believe...what Jesus said is ...’I’d rather you be hot or cold, because luke warm Christians make me sick.’ (Rev 3:14-16)

The only way to elevate yourself is to put others down and yet, there you are doing exactly the same thing....do you know what that’s called?

 

[quietthinker]

I expect that coming from you QT....you sound insecure in your beliefs and you appear to find comfort in it for some reason.

It’s not wrong to be confident about what you believe...what Jesus said is ...’I’d rather you be hot or cold, because luke warm Christians make me sick.’ (Rev 3:14-16)

The only way to elevate yourself is to put others down and yet, there you are doing exactly the same thing....do you know what’s that’s called?

There is a great gulf between confidence and self aggrandisement.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Romans chapter one, "so they are without excuse."
Is salvation granted for recognizing the creator?

Paul says that those who have never heard the Law will become a law to themselves, in other words, they will be judged according to their own conscience. The Scripture says that if a person does something that his conscience tells him is sin, then it is sin for him. Because man is made in the image of God, then he has a God given conscience that inwardly tells him right from wrong.

Actually, we are not clearly told what will happen to those who have never heard the Law or known about God. There are some mysteries that only God knows, and He has chosen not to reveal them to us.

It is interesting that Abraham was an idol worshiping Gentile, living in Ur of the Chaldees. The mystery for us is why God chose him out of all the thousands of other idol worship Gentiles living in the city at that time.

 

[Aunty Jane]

There is a great gulf between confidence and self aggrandisement.

My posts seem to be a trigger for you QT....why do you respond to them if they upset you?
When have I aggrandised myself simply by sharing knowledge? I love to share what I have learned, maybe someone else can benefit from my studies?
No one is standing there with a big stick mate....what is your problem?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Paul says that those who have never heard the Law will become a law to themselves, in other words, they will be judged according to their own conscience. The Scripture says that if a person does something that his conscience tells him is sin, then it is sin for him. Because man is made in the image of God, then he has a God given conscience that inwardly tells him right from wrong.

Today we live in a world of no excuses. What use to be excused ignorance is now no longer the case as we get closer to the end of the present system of world governance under satan’s rule, that has failed miserably. Even the poorest nations have Internet access and knowledge was to abound in this “time of the end”. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10) Most of it today comes from that source.

And God’s worshippers are active in every nation, preaching “the good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth”, (Matt 24:14) as Jesus instructed.

So, most of humanity will have no excuses to offer when Jesus returns as the judge of all of us....least of all those who profess to be disciples of God’s Son. (Matt 7:21-23; 1 Peter 4:17-18)

It is interesting that Abraham was an idol worshiping Gentile, living in Ur of the Chaldees. The mystery for us is why God chose him out of all the thousands of other idol worship Gentiles living in the city at that time.

An idol worshipping gentile? Where do you get that from?
Abraham, whose name was changed when he was 99 years old, was a descendant of Shem, about 352 years after the flood, and their lives overlapped by 150 years. Abraham was a man of faith even though he lived in the Chaldean city of Ur, which was alive with pagan worship. (Rom 4:11) He knew “Jehovah the Most High God, Maker of heaven and earth”. (Gen 14:22)
He even made his servant swear not to take a wife for his son Isaac from among the Canaanite women. (Gen 24:1-4)

Abraham’s nephew Lot took up residence in Sodom, but he was still a worshipper of the true God even though he was surrounded by immoral people.

Before he took up residence in Haran, God commanded Abraham to make that move and he would show him the land that Abraham’s offspring would occupy in the future....promising him that he would become a “great nation”......aging and childless, he and Sarah obeyed, and moved their entire household to the new land. Abraham remained there as a nomad and foreign resident, until he died. He was the father of the Israelite nation....the only human to be called “Jehovah’s friend”. (James 2:23)

 

[quietthinker]

My posts seem to be a trigger for you QT....why do you respond to them if they upset you?
When have I aggrandised myself simply by sharing knowledge? I love to share what I have learned, maybe someone else can benefit from my studies?
No one is standing there with a big stick mate....what is your problem?

In a sense they are a trigger because the God whom I love, you present so poorly. You have made him in your image but are oblivious to how you do it or even that you do it...... and you use the scripture to justify it.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Today we live in a world of no excuses. What use to be excused ignorance is now no longer the case as we get closer to the end of the present system of world governance under satan’s rule, that has failed miserably. Even the poorest nations have Internet access and knowledge was to abound in this “time of the end”. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10) Most of it today comes from that source.

And God’s worshippers are active in every nation, preaching “the good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth”, (Matt 24:14) as Jesus instructed.

So, most of humanity will have no excuses to offer when Jesus returns as the judge of all of us....least of all those who profess to be disciples of God’s Son. (Matt 7:21-23; 1 Peter 4:17-18)

An idol worshipping gentile? Where do you get that from?
Abraham, whose name was changed when he was 99 years old, was a descendant of Shem, about 352 years after the flood, and their lives overlapped by 150 years. Abraham was a man of faith even though he lived in the Chaldean city of Ur, which was alive with pagan worship. (Rom 4:11) He knew “Jehovah the Most High God, Maker of heaven and earth”. (Gen 14:22)
He even made his servant swear not to take a wife for his son Isaac from among the Canaanite women. (Gen 24:1-4)

Abraham’s nephew Lot took up residence in Sodom, but he was still a worshipper of the true God even though he was surrounded by immoral people.

Before he took up residence in Haran, God commanded Abraham to make that move and he would show him the land that Abraham’s offspring would occupy in the future....promising him that he would become a “great nation”......aging and childless, he and Sarah obeyed, and moved their entire household to the new land. Abraham remained there as a nomad and foreign resident, until he died. He was the father of the Israelite nation....the only human to be called “Jehovah’s friend”. (James 2:23)

Where in the Biblical record does it say that he was a worshiper of God while he lived in Ur of the Chaldees, before God called him to leave and go to the land where He would lead him?

I have no difficulty with the fact that Abraham was a changed man after God spoke to him. Perhaps he underwent a conversion from Idolatry to obeying God's voice. But the Bible is silent about that, only that God spoke to him and gave him the instructions to leave his home and kindred and go to a land where He would lead him.

 

[saved by grace 101]

Don't know if this helps, but I heard a minister say hell is where God's presence does not exist

 

[St. SteVen]

Don't know if this helps, but I heard a minister say hell is where God's presence does not exist

I've heard that as well. But...
Since God is omnipresent, it couldn't be true.

Psalm 139:8 KJV
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

 

[saved by grace 101]

I've heard that as well. But...
Since God is omnipresent, it couldn't be true.

Psalm 139:8 KJV
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Well I don't profess to be an expert on this subject, but do you believe in an eternal hell for unbelievers? It wouldn't seem right to me that God's presence would be there. If that were true, we would have to delve further into David's words

 

[Aunty Jane]

In a sense they are a trigger because the God whom I love, you present so poorly.

And the God I love is presented poorly by you IMO. He is a weak god who forgives unconditionally...with no regard for justice or recompense. If everyone is saved, then what was the point of this exercise? Why are we living this life, where bad things happen to good people?

The God I present is the God of the Bible.....the God Jesus served.....the God who cleansed the earth in Noah’s day, and who brought Sodom and Gomorrah to a fiery end because their immoral behaviour was appalling! Has he changed now because you don’t like what he did back then? What then is Armageddon?

I have no idea where your god came from....I cannot find him in Scripture.

You have made him in your image but are oblivious to how you do it or even that you do it...... and you use the scripture to justify it.

Funny, but I was thinking the same about you....your god is an image of you, and your poorly applied scripture doesn’t paint a very good picture of your attempts to understand what is written in God’s word either....
At the end of the day...that is all we have to build our faith on that is solid....something we can all rely on collectively, rather than on these vague personal experiences, which only mean something to individuals....Christians are a brotherhood united by God’s spirit....all must hold the same beliefs. (1 Cor 1:10)

Where does that leave you? If nothing I say resonates with you, I have still done my job....’shaking the dust off’...go in peace QT...just put me on ignore.

I’m not here to upset anyone....but not everyone can handle the truth when it’s not what they want to believe.