HELLUCINATIONS

[Douggg]

‘Rapture to heaven’ believers say that people who dispute their theory just cannot see or understand that belief.
It’s what we don't see in the Bible, where the difference lies. Nowhere does scripture say God intends to take His people to heaven. In fact Jesus Himself says such a thing is impossible. John 3:13, John 7:34, Revelation 2:25-26, etc.

People who read the whole Bible can establish the truth for themselves - that God's purpose is to have a people who will be His faithful believers, doing His will on earth. THAT is our task and our destiny! But a lot of people don't bother to find out this truth. They listen to teachers and read fictional books that say we can just be good people, churchgoers and tithers and God will remove them to heaven. They are told this fantastic event will happen before any judgement or testing of their faith. They are told it is the Jewish people who must face tribulation, not them.

This scenario is not found anywhere in the Bible. It is made up from assumptions and making scriptures mean something they do not. For instance, John 14:1-3 which is a prophecy about the new heavens and earth that comes down after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

So the 'rapture to heaven' believers will never convince anyone who seriously reads their Bible. The lazy people who accept doctrines from anywhere, except the Bible, are deceived and because they choose to believe lies, the Lord has locked them into their delusions. Isaiah 29:9-12, and stopped their ears to the truth; 2 Timothy 4:4

Keraz, do you believe the 24 elders in Revelation are in heaven ? If not where are they ?

 

[Keraz]

Keraz, do you believe the 24 elders in Revelation are in heaven ? If not where are they ?

Revelation 4:4 makes it clear; they are in heaven.
It is not given to us how they got there, or who they are.

If you think they help the false rapture theory, you are very mistaken.

 

[Jack]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Beautiful!

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 4:4 makes it clear; they are in heaven.
It is not given to us how they got there, or who they are.

If you think they help the false rapture theory, you are very mistaken.

In Revelation 4:4, the 24 elders have crowns - so they are not angels, but men.

 

[TribulationSigns]

In Revelation 4:4, the 24 elders have crowns - so they are not angels, but men.

Say, do you both understand exactly who are the 24 elders? Really?

 

[Douggg]

Say, do you both understand exactly who are the 24 elders? Really?

I don't know by specific identity - i.e. someone like Ezekiel - but I am sure that some of them are old testament prophets. Enoch and Elijah are probably 2 of the 24 elders.

 

[Keraz]

Say, do you both understand exactly who are the 24 elders? Really?

No; and I have said; we are not told who they are.
Speculation about them is pointless and done only in an attempt to support the false 'rapture to heaven' theory.

 

[ewq1938]

In Revelation 4:4, the 24 elders have crowns - so they are not angels, but men.

That doesn't prove they are men/human because angels have heads.

 

[Bladerunner]

‘Rapture to heaven’ believers say that people who dispute their theory just cannot see or understand that belief.
It’s what we don't see in the Bible, where the difference lies. Nowhere does scripture say God intends to take His people to heaven. In fact Jesus Himself says such a thing is impossible. John 3:13,

("And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,) even the Son of man which is in heaven." He is telling the Jews this before His Crucifixion, Ascension and certainly before those in Abraham's Bosom or the thief on the cross were taken to heaven. This is not to mention those in His Church whose souls are in Paradise (Heaven) to this day awaiting the Rapture so they might be reunited with their renewed bodies.

John 7:34

"Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?" Rem, the Jews did not count Him as their Messiah/King as thus was not thinking of Heaven as an option.

, Revelation 2:25-26, etc.

"But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:" Here He is speaking to the overcomers of the Thyatira (the RCC today) and in verse 24: "But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden." If this is the case, then He is either a lier by telling them these words and then having them go through Daniel's 70th week of horrible tribulations.

People who read the whole Bible can establish the truth for themselves - that God's purpose is to have a people who will be His faithful believers, doing His will on earth. THAT is our task and our destiny! But a lot of people don't bother to find out this truth.

I take it you are a covenmentalist? which means I have wasted my words above.

They listen to teachers and read fictional books that say we can just be good people, churchgoers and tithers and God will remove them to heaven.

While I teach the doctrines of the Bible to people, I do not tell them your understanding.

They are told this fantastic event will happen before any judgement or testing of their faith.

again, you don't understand or do not want to understand. Those of His Church are Justified and thus have already been judged. They will now be judged at the Bema Seat Judgement (rewards for their work(s)) after their justification-here on earth....Yes, we all have tribulations on this earth but the testing of our faith after justification does not happen..Read Ezekial 36:27" ........And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

They are told it is the Jewish people who must face tribulation, not them.It is unfortunate that you make what GOD

It is Biblical....Look to Dan 9:27.."And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." This is only the beginning of God Words that consume the unbelieving Jewish people and protects the remnant of Israel (rev 12:13-17)

This scenario is not found anywhere in the Bible. It is made up from assumptions and making scriptures mean something they do not.

showed it to you above, but there is a lot more than that what was posted.

For instance, John 14:1-3 which is a prophecy about the new heavens and earth that comes down after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

That is a lot of GOD's Word that you intentionally left out between John 14 and Rev 21....In John 13, Jesus is telling His disciples that there will be one to betray Him. This context is carried forth in John 14:1-3 where Jesus tells them this: "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know." He is not even crucified yet and you are telling of Him coming back for those who believe after the millennium...I think Not...

So the 'rapture to heaven' believers will never convince anyone who seriously reads their Bible. The lazy people who accept doctrines from anywhere, except the Bible, are deceived and because they choose to believe lies, the Lord has locked them into their delusions. Isaiah 29:9-12, and stopped their ears to the truth; 2 Timothy 4:4

How dare you call GOD's people "lazy" for it is you and those that follow you who throw the doctrines of GOD to the wind..Yet, we do not have long to wait. The Prophecy of of Psalm 83 is beginning today and the Rapture, not owing to any other event could happen in the next 5 min or not.....Either way, I will see Jesus in the Rapture or my death. When the rapture does happen and you are left behind wondering why multitudes of Chrisitans have disappeared without a trace, then only then will you realize that it is those who follow those who allegorize the Words of GOD to cover their own world views.

 

[Douggg]

That doesn't prove they are men/human because angels have heads.

I don't dispute that angels have heads. But the verse, Revelation 4:4, indicates crowns on the 24 elders' heads.

Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

 

[ewq1938]

I don't dispute that angels have heads. But the verse, Revelation 4:4, indicates crowns on the 24 elders' heads.

Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

So? Angels can wear crowns too. Crowns are not evidence of humans.

 

[Douggg]

So? Angels can wear crowns too. Crowns are not evidence of humans.

John did not identify the elders as angels. Whenever there were angels in the text of Revelation, John referred to them as angels.

"elders" when used in the bible refers to older, experienced in life, persons - humans, not angels.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/search.php?q=elders

 

[ewq1938]

John did not identify the elders as angels.

John did not identify the elders as humans.

Whenever there were angels in the text of Revelation, John referred to them as angels.

That isn't evidence of anything. In the bible angels can be mistaken as humans because they look identical to us.

"elders" when used in the bible refers to older, experienced in life, persons - humans, not angels.

Wrong. It has other meanings, including this from Thayers, "a term of rank or office".

 

[Douggg]

That isn't evidence of anything. In the bible angels can be mistaken as humans because they look identical to us.

I don't think that John confused the angels and humans he saw in Revelation with each other.

 

[Keraz]

When the rapture does happen and you are left behind

The usual nasty and unchristian response to people who refute the rapture to heaven.
At the Judgment; expect to have Jesus ask why you cosigned fellow Christians to what you falsely believed to be a bad time.

 

[Douggg]

The usual nasty and unchristian response to people who refute the rapture to heaven.
At the Judgment; expect to have Jesus ask why you cosigned fellow Christians to what you falsely believed to be a bad time.

Keraz, if a person goes to lengths to discourage belief in the rapture/resurrection event to heaven - then why should that person expect to be included - if the event to heaven takes place ?

 

[ewq1938]

I don't think that John confused the angels and humans he saw in Revelation with each other.

And he wouldn't confuse elder angels (higher rank angels) with regular angels either.

So, we cannot say positively if the 24 elders are humans or angels, or another lifeform. Even if they a e humans, it doesn't prove they were raptured to heaven before the trib anyways so it is a moot point.

 

[ewq1938]

Keraz, if a person goes to lengths to discourage belief in the rapture/resurrection event to heaven - then why should that person expect to be included - if the event to heaven takes place ?

Denying a rapture to heaven does not disqualify one from being raptured. The only requirement is to be a saved Christ who is alive on Earth when it is time for the rapture. This is why it isn't possible to somehow miss the rapture if you are saved and alive at that time.

 

[Keraz]

Keraz, if a person goes to lengths to discourage belief in the rapture/resurrection event to heaven - then why should that person expect to be included - if the event to heaven takes place ?

What I go to lengths to help people, is to point out the truths of scripture. A 'rapture to heaven' of the Church is never Prophesied to happen. It is a false teaching, proved by the Prophesies which describe our future on earth. until the end of the Millennium, then on the new earth.

I have said before, that my desire is to serve the Lord here, the work He has for me on earth.
I am not so pretentious and arrogant, as to consider myself equal to the angels in heaven. Something that will count against rapture believers at the Judgement.

 

[Douggg]

What I go to lengths to help people, is to point out the truths of scripture. A 'rapture to heaven' of the Church is never Prophesied to happen. It is a false teaching, proved by the Prophesies which describe our future on earth. until the end of the Millennium, then on the new earth.

I have said before, that my desire is to serve the Lord here, the work He has for me on earth.
I am not so pretentious and arrogant, as to consider myself equal to the angels in heaven. Something that will count against rapture believers at the Judgement.

So if the rapture/resurrection event to heaven occurs, you expect to be left behind.