HELLUCINATIONS

[ewq1938]

Look ewg1938..Its not like I get something from spreading the truth about God's Word...Don't believe a thing I say, never but I do ask that you be as the bereans did in Acts 17:11. It is a choice only you can make.

You need to take your own advice. What I said is true. Denials of as rapture to heaven cannot and does not make anyone ineligible for the rapture. It is ludicrous to even suggest something so unscriptural.

 

[Bladerunner]

You need to take your own advice. What I said is true. Denials of as rapture to heaven cannot and does not make anyone ineligible for the rapture. It is ludicrous to even suggest something so unscriptural.

Are you sure? not knowing is what the 5 foolish virgins did...walked away to get oil (become the world)) and when they come back, Jesus did not know them.....The Rapture is Biblical.

 

[ewq1938]

Are you sure?

Yes.

not knowing is what the 5 foolish virgins did...walked away to get oil (become the world)) and when they come back, Jesus did not know them.....The Rapture is Biblical.

We are discussing Pretrib rapture not rapture in general. Pretrib is not biblical. Not one word about such nonsense is found in the bible, any bible, any translation, not a word Jot or Tittle.

 

[Phoneman777]

Yes, where do they get that idea? I don't see it in the Bible either.

Ii traces back to "Plymouth Brethren" leader John Nelson Darby who fell in love with Jesuit eschatology.

 

[Bladerunner]

Yes.




We are discussing Pretrib rapture not rapture in general. Pretrib is not biblical. Not one word about such nonsense is found in the bible, any bible, any translation, not a word Jot or Tittle.

Yet the Rapture has to happen for the antichrist (man of sin, son of perdition) to come to power or be publically known. without the antichrist, there can be no Daniel's 70th week or Tribulations. simple as that..They depend on the Church, the Holy Spirit in each church member being removed from the earth first....

 

[ewq1938]

Yet the Rapture has to happen for the antichrist (man of sin, son of perdition) to come to power or be publically known.

False. Look at Rev 13, there is no rapture involved with either beast rising up.

without the antichrist, there can be no Daniel's 70th week or Tribulations. simple as that..They depend on the Church, the Holy Spirit in each church member being removed from the earth first....

No passage of the bible, any bible, says anything remotely like that. Christians are promised to be persecuted and even killed in the trib, in every passage that speaks of the trib. Christians are NEVER gone during that period. It cannot even exist without them being the tribulation is Christians experiencing tribulation from the enemy. That is why it's called tribulation.

The bible says the church will go through the tribulation. The 144,000 Christian Jews do. The two witnesses, which are two prophets and two Christian churches do. Revelation 20 also says Christian beheaded martyrs do. Revelation 13 speaks of Christian saints so they do. Revelation 12:17 says satan will wage a war against Christians, and that is seen starting in Revelation 13. The 5th seal shows dead Christians wanting vengeance but are told to wait until more of their own Christian brothers are killed like they were. That is the killing of Christians in the trib. Christ said Christians will go through the Great Tribulation in the Olivet discourse.

The doctrine teaching the church is gone before the trib starts is not a biblical doctrine. The only way to be gone is to commit Apostasy and leave the church which is Apostasia in the Greek and is what many teach is the rapture but it is Apostasy not Rapture. Even Apostates will still be here during the trib, just on the side of the Enemy.

 

[Bladerunner]

False. Look at Rev 13, there is no rapture involved with either beast rising up.

what does that have to do with the Rapture of the Church? Nothing

No passage of the bible, any bible, says anything remotely like that. Christians are promised to be persecuted and even killed in the trib, in every passage that speaks of the trib.

Awh, you use the word Christians loosely...The Church is only the true believers and yes we are promised not to go through His wrath. Now the other so-called Christians will simply have to loose their heads in martyrdom to prove they do believe in Him and His WORD.

Christians are NEVER gone during that period. It cannot even exist without them being the tribulation is Christians experiencing tribulation from the enemy. That is why it's called tribulation.

What does not exist....the tribulations....they are for Israel as Daniel 9:24 outlines.

The bible says the church will go through the tribulation. The 144,000 Christian Jews do. The two witnesses, which are two prophets and two Christian churches do. Revelation 20 also says Christian beheaded martyrs do. Revelation 13 speaks of Christian saints so they do. Revelation 12:17 says satan will wage a war against Christians, and that is seen starting in Revelation 13. The 5th seal shows dead Christians wanting vengeance but are told to wait until more of their own Christian brothers are killed like they were. That is the killing of Christians in the trib. Christ said Christians will go through the Great Tribulation in the Olivet discourse.

The doctrine teaching the church is gone before the trib starts is not a biblical doctrine. The only way to be gone is to commit Apostasy and leave the church which is Apostasia in the Greek and is what many teach is the rapture but it is Apostasy not Rapture. Even Apostates will still be here during the trib, just on the side of the Enemy.

I think we are at an end here,,,,,You theology is leading and many other directly to a bad ending....good luck!

 

[Douggg]

1/ No scriptural support whatsoever. It will not and cannot happen.
2/ To happen when Jesus Returns, but only back to physical life.
3/ Revelation 20:11-15, is the Spiritual resurrection of everyone who has ever lived, to stand before God in Judgment. 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 describes this event and the outcome for those whose names are found in the Book of Life.

Keraz, 1Corinthians 15:50-56 is only about dead and living in Christ. It is not referring to the Great White Throne Judgement - as that judgment includes the unsaved and them being cast into the lake of fire.

1Corinthians15:51 is about the mystery of rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:13-18. Read those verses in 1Thessalonians4::13-18. They do not fit for when the Great White Throne Judgment takes place.

For example....

1Thessalonains 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

That verse must be talking about the souls of departed Christians - that went to heaven when they died. And when God the Father instructs Jesus that now is the time for the rapture/resurrection, He has Jesus bring the souls of the departed with Him, when Jesus comes to resurrect their bodies.

Their soul will at that time be reunited with their resurrected incorruptible everlasting body. Inducing the saying of 1Corinthians5:53, "Death where is thy sting. Grave where is thy victory."

 

[Douggg]

The doctrine teaching the church is gone before the trib starts is not a biblical doctrine.

i don't understand your dogmatic rationale that the rapture cannot take place until after the 70th week starts.

 

[Keraz]

1Corinthians 15:50-56 is only about dead and living in Christ. It is not referring to the Great White Throne Judgement - as that judgment includes the unsaved and them being cast into the lake of fire.

You are wrong - Paul is describing the final Judgment, as per Revelation 20:11-15.
Proved by how it is then that Death will be no more. Rev 21:4

1Corinthians15:51 is about the mystery of rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:13-18. Read those verses in 1Thessalonians4::13-18. They do not fit for when the Great White Throne Judgment takes place.

Of course 1 Thess 4 does not fit with the GWT Judgment, as it describes what will happen at the glorious Return.

It is your unbiblical and impossible 'rapture/resurrection', which does not fit anywhere.

 

[Douggg]

You are wrong - Paul is describing the final Judgment, as per Revelation 20:11-15.

Keraz, there is no judgment being spoken of in 1Corinthians15:50-56.

Of course 1 Thess 4 does not fit with the GWT Judgment, as it describes what will happen at the glorious Return.

No, there is no catching up of the living in Christ in Revelation 20:4-6, like in 1Thessalonians4:13-18.

And the dead resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6 are only the great tribulation martyrs - not them who have died in Christ over the generations.

In the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:13-18, the dead in Christ are raised first,. And then the living, together with the resurrected dead, are caught up into the clouds, to meet Jesus in the air, to forever be with the Lord.

 

[ewq1938]

i don't understand your dogmatic rationale that the rapture cannot take place until after the 70th week starts.

I never even mentioned a 70th week so perhaps that is part of the issue you are having in not understanding me.

 

[ewq1938]

what does that have to do with the Rapture of the Church? Nothing

The church is there being persecuted and killed so it shows no rapture occurred prior to teh rise of the two beasts in chp 13.

Awh, you use the word Christians loosely...The Church is only the true believers and yes we are promised not to go through His wrath. Now the other so-called Christians will simply have to loose their heads in martyrdom to prove they do believe in Him and His WORD.

lol, the beheaded people of Rev 20 are not "so called Christians". It is YOU that wrongly and loosely uses the term Christian, not I.

What does not exist....the tribulations....they are for Israel as Daniel 9:24 outlines.

I think we are at an end here,,,,,You theology is leading and many other directly to a bad ending.

No, that's you.

 

[Douggg]

I never even mentioned a 70th week so perhaps that is part of the issue you are having in not understanding me.

pre-trib implies pre-70th week in the pretribbers' vocabulary.

pre-trib is actually a misleading term, imo, because most of the first half of the 70th week will not be tribulation.

 

[Timtofly]

False. Look at Rev 13, there is no rapture involved with either beast rising up.




No passage of the bible, any bible, says anything remotely like that. Christians are promised to be persecuted and even killed in the trib, in every passage that speaks of the trib. Christians are NEVER gone during that period. It cannot even exist without them being the tribulation is Christians experiencing tribulation from the enemy. That is why it's called tribulation.

The bible says the church will go through the tribulation. The 144,000 Christian Jews do. The two witnesses, which are two prophets and two Christian churches do. Revelation 20 also says Christian beheaded martyrs do. Revelation 13 speaks of Christian saints so they do. Revelation 12:17 says satan will wage a war against Christians, and that is seen starting in Revelation 13. The 5th seal shows dead Christians wanting vengeance but are told to wait until more of their own Christian brothers are killed like they were. That is the killing of Christians in the trib. Christ said Christians will go through the Great Tribulation in the Olivet discourse.

The doctrine teaching the church is gone before the trib starts is not a biblical doctrine. The only way to be gone is to commit Apostasy and leave the church which is Apostasia in the Greek and is what many teach is the rapture but it is Apostasy not Rapture. Even Apostates will still be here during the trib, just on the side of the Enemy.

Why do you use the word "Christian" to make your point? Was Abraham a Christian? Was Moses a Christian? Was Daniel a Christian?

All people are going to die after the 6th Seal is opened. This is not about persecution nor martyrdom. The church is removed at the 5th Seal, because Jesus and the angels are on the earth at the 6th Seal. From that point on, all in Adam's dead flesh are going to either be tossed alive into the LOF of fire, or redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and given a new permanent incorruptible physical body to live on the earth during the Millennial Kingdom.

Dying will be a blessing, not a bad thing. All have to leave Adam's flesh. Time is up. Those left alive will have the mark, and still suffer in this current dead flesh until they are killed at Armageddon. Those beheaded will not be alive all the way to the end. One will either be beheaded or receive the mark. There are no middle ground people called "Christians" waiting for a rapture. Even the two witnesses are killed and left for dead for 3.5 days.

 

[Keraz]

there is no judgment being spoken of in 1Corinthians15:50-56.

That Prophecy is after the GWT Judgment. The results of it.

No, there is no catching up of the living in Christ in Revelation 20:4-6,

There is only one catching up, that happens when Jesus Returns, from where His people are, to where He will be - in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31 confirms it.

And the dead resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6 are only the great tribulation martyrs - not them who have died in Christ over the generations.

Right, and Rev 20:5 plainly says that those who have already died in Christ, must wait until the thousand years is over.

It is gross error to think anyone receives immortality before the GWT Judgement and the Book of Life is opened.

 

[Douggg]

That Prophecy is after the GWT Judgment. The results of it.

There is only one catching up, that happens when Jesus Returns, from where His people are, to where He will be - in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31 confirms it.

Right, and Rev 20:5 plainly says that those who have already died in Christ, must wait until the thousand years is over.

It is gross error to think anyone receives immortality before the GWT Judgement and the Book of Life is opened.

Keraz, 1Corinthians15:50-56 has no reference to the Great White Throne Judgment.

There is no catching up of the living in Christ at Jesus's return. Not in Revelation 20:4-6. Nor in Matthew 24:30-31.

Revelation 20:5 does not say anything about them who died in Christ down through the generations. There will be great tribulation saints who will die of other causes than being martyred during the great tribulation. Revelation 20:5 is referring to them.

 

[Bladerunner]

You are wrong - Paul is describing the final Judgment, as per Revelation 20:11-15.
Proved by how it is then that Death will be no more. Rev 21:4

No, this is a passage of the Rapture. A part of the 1st resurrection/

Of course 1 Thess 4 does not fit with the GWT Judgment, as it describes what will happen at the glorious Return.

It is your unbiblical and impossible 'rapture/resurrection', which does not fit anywhere.

This is another part of the Rapture.....It does fit in one reads the bible literally instead of allegorically. If one reads it allegorically, they can interpret it any way with or without listening to GOD's WORD.

 

[Keraz]

Keraz, 1Corinthians15:50-56 has no reference to the Great White Throne Judgment.

There is no catching up of the living in Christ at Jesus's return. Not in Revelation 20:4-6. Nor in Matthew 24:30-31.

Revelation 20:5 does not say anything about them who died in Christ down through the generations. There will be great tribulation saints who will die of other causes than being martyred during the great tribulation. Revelation 20:5 is referring to them.

All just speculation and guesswork.

Death will be no more - ONLY after the GWT and in Eternity.

The catching up of those faithful Christians who remain alive, to go to be with King Jesus, as His priests and co-rulers, Rev 5:9-10, is what Matthew 24:31 tell us.

You should be ashamed for your wrong and unscriptural opinions.
ALL the dead will stand before God on His Great White Throne: Daniel 7:9-10, and only then will the Book of Life be opened and those worthy will receive immortality.

 

[Keraz]

No, this is a passage of the Rapture. A part of the 1st resurrection/

Your opinion is error and false teaching.
I proved that 1 Cor 15:50-56 is a parallel Prophecy to Revelation 20:11-15. People cannot deny that Revelation 21:4 proves that Death does not cease until after the Millennium.

This is another part of the Rapture..

More speculation and biased wishful thinking.
1 Thess 4:16-17 is all about the glorious Return of King Jesus. The faithful Christians who remain will be raised up; to meet Him and then be taken to Jerusalem for the Millennium.