HELLUCINATIONS

[Douggg]

All just speculation and guesswork.

Death will be no more - ONLY after the GWT and in Eternity.

The catching up of those faithful Christians who remain alive, to go to be with King Jesus, as His priests and co-rulers, Rev 5:9-10, is what Matthew 24:31 tell us.

You should be ashamed for your wrong and unscriptural opinions.
ALL the dead will stand before God on His Great White Throne: Daniel 7:9-10, and only then will the Book of Life be opened and those worthy will receive immortality.

Apparently, you have not read Philippians 3:20-21

20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body. NIV

 

[Keraz]

Apparently, you have not read Philippians 3:20-21

20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body. NIV

Apparently; you are as confused and deluded as you ever were. Corrections and showing you to be wrong, are just brushed off.

Does Phil 3:20 say we will live in heaven? NO, if does not, it refers to having our names Written in the Book of Life. Malachi 3:16-17
We know exactly when Pauls prophecy in Phil 3:21, will take place - After the Millennium; Rev 20:11-15, when the Book of Life is opened.

These facts are irrefutable truths. Unless you can find anything to make Paul into a false prophet, then it is you who is the false teacher and a promoter of wrong beliefs.

 

[Douggg]

Does Phil 3:20 say we will live in heaven?

Yes, that's the implication. In eternal, everlasting bodies. To take place in the 1Thessalonians4:13-18 rapture/resurrection event to heaven.

20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body. NIV

it refers to having our names Written in the Book of Life. Malachi 3:16-17
We know exactly when Pauls prophecy in Phil 3:21, will take place - After the Millennium; Rev 20:11-15, when the Book of Life is opened.

Nothing in the text of Philippians 3 about the Great White Throne Judgement.

Matthew 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

 

[Keraz]

20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ

This is good reason to doubt your cognitive ability.
If we await our Saviour from heaven, we are on earth. Right?

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

But not our physical bodies.
ONLY after the GWT Judgment, does anyone receive immortality and then God will make His dwelling place on the new earth.

 

[Douggg]

This is good reason to doubt your cognitive ability.
If we await our Saviour from heaven, we are on earth. Right?

Christians are on earth in our natural physical bodies. But when Jesus comes for the 1Thessalonians4:13-18 rapture/resurrection to heaven event, Christians will be taken to heaven in their redeemed everlasting eternal life bodies.

To heaven, where we have citizenship - not to Israel, nor to another part of the world.

Luke 21:
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

 

[Keraz]

Christians are on earth in our natural physical bodies. But when Jesus comes for the 1Thessalonians4:13-18 rapture/resurrection to heaven event, Christians will be taken to heaven in their redeemed everlasting eternal life bodies.

Scripture does not say this.
When Jesus Returns, then the [mortal] faithful peoples will be with Him in His Kingdom on earth, for the next thousand years.
As Luke 21:28-32 actually says, instead of your fanciful notions.

Most of those people will die naturally, Isaiah 65:20, and the later generations will be susceptible to Satan and many will join his army, as Revelation 20:7-9 tells us.

 

[Earburner]

Amem, "hellucinations" is a great description!

I agree, the focus of the entire passage in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV is not heaven, but the resurrection which happens down here, not up there.

I wouldn't say "impossible" - but the idea is definitely not Biblical:

• God preserved Noah in the midst of the Flood, not from it.
• God preserved Israel in the midst of the 7 last plagues, not from them.
• God preserved Israel in the midst of the Red Sea, not from it.
• God preserved Daniel's friends in the midst of the fiery furnace, not from it.
• God preserved Daniel in the midst of the lion's den, not from it.
• God preserved the people of Dothan in the midst of the Assyrian army, not from it.
• God promises "a thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand, but it shall not come nigh thee. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked".

And in spite of all this, people still claim Jesus will sneak into town and sneak out with the saints.

KJV only- 2 Thes. 1:7-10. Notice the word "WHEN" being used twice.
It will be a simultaneous event!
That is not the "Pretribbers" rapture, however it will be the Day when all God's Saints shall be glorified.

 

[Keraz]

KJV only- 2 Thes. 1:7-10. Notice the word "WHEN" being used twice.
It will be a simultaneous event!
That is not the "Pretribbers" rapture, however it will be the Day when all God's Saints shall be glorified.

No one has yet received 'glorification', as you imagine. Not Adam, Abraham, not Billy Graham.
The Bible is quite clear about when all the worthy people will receive immortal life; AFTER the Millennium. Rev 20:11-15

 

[ewq1938]

No one has yet received 'glorification', as you imagine. Not Adam, Abraham, not Billy Graham.
The Bible is quite clear about when all the worthy people will receive immortal life; AFTER the Millennium. Rev 20:11-15

No one receives immortal life after the Mill. Immortality comes before the Mill at the second coming according to scripture:

Luk 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Luk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


Here we see that those who are resurrected cannot die anymore which is what having eternal life means. So we only have to find out when the resurrection happens.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: (the second coming) and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Paul lists the events in order: The second coming, then the resurrection (when people become immortal and cannot die anymore), then the rapture. The second coming happens before the thousand years begins according to Rev 20:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Take note that a judgment happened before the thousand years began. The ones who are resurrected were also judged. This is when they receive eternal life. So, eternal life begins before the Millennium begins which is also why people live more than a 1,000 years :)

 

[Douggg]

No one receives immortal life after the Mill. Immortality comes before the Mill at the second coming according to scripture:

Both you and Keraz are partly right.

1. Those Christians taken in the rapture/resurrection event will receive immortality then.

2. The great tribulation martyred saints in Revelation 20:4-6 will receive immortality then, at the beginning of the millennium.

3. At the Great White Throne judgment after the millennium is over, them whose names are found in the lamb's book of life receive immortality then.

 

[Douggg]

When Jesus Returns, then the [mortal] faithful peoples will be with Him in His Kingdom on earth, for the next thousand years.
As Luke 21:28-32 actually says, instead of your fanciful notions.

Persons who survive the great tribulation and are alive when Jesus returns will enter the millennium in their mortal bodies. They will die during the millennium and later be resurrected for the Great White Throne Judgment. For those whose names are found written in the Lamb's book of life, at the Great White Throne Judgment, they will receive immortality then.

 

[Keraz]

Persons who survive the great tribulation and are alive when Jesus returns will enter the millennium in their mortal bodies. They will die during the millennium and later be resurrected for the Great White Throne Judgment. For those whose names are found written in the Lamb's book of life, at the Great White Throne Judgment, they will receive immortality then.

This is Biblically correct.
Why must you and ewq, add to the Prophetic Word by forcing in a bodily change for anyone before the GWT Judgment?

Those Christians taken in the rapture/resurrection event will receive immortality then.

2. The great tribulation martyred saints in Revelation 20:4-6 will receive immortality then, at the beginning of the millennium.

These beliefs are unscriptural and will not happen.
Rev 20:4-6 plainly says; the GT martyrs will be brought back to life; NOT yet made immortal.

 

[ewq1938]

Both you and Keraz are partly right.

1. Those Christians taken in the rapture/resurrection event will receive immortality then.

2. The great tribulation martyred saints in Revelation 20:4-6 will receive immortality then, at the beginning of the millennium.

No, they resurrect BEFORE the Mill starts and it is the same exact timeframe as the rapture/resurrection.

3. At the Great White Throne judgment after the millennium is over, them whose names are found in the lamb's book of life receive immortality then.

This isn't biblical. The only people at the GWTJ are the damned.

 

[Douggg]

This isn't biblical. The only people at the GWTJ are the damned.

There will be people who are born during the 1000 year millennium and die. If they embrace the gospel of salvation during their life, at the resurrection for the Great White Throne Judgment they will receive eternal life, given an everlasting incorruptible body. Their names found written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[ewq1938]

There will be people who are born during the 1000 year millennium and die.

What you refer to is not the Millennium. There is nothing explicitly said about people being born or dying in the Millennium.

If they embrace the gospel of salvation during their life, at the resurrection for the Great White Throne Judgment they will receive eternal life, given an everlasting incorruptible body. Their names found written in the Lamb's book of life.

Yet Rev 20 at the GWTJ does not show anyone receiving eternal life. There are only two resurrections, the first is of life, the second is for damnation. There is nothing written about a mixed resurrection of both life and damnation and Rev 20 only has a resurrection of those not worthy of the first resurrection.

And for those who are mortal and get saved but don't die? I don't see anything in Rev 20 about them. At the GWTJ I only see the bible calling that group the dead despite a resurrection already having happened which means they are spiritually dead which means none of them are receiving immortality/reward. None are saved.

 

[Keraz]

And for those who are mortal and get saved but don't die? I don't see anything in Rev 20 about them

Paul explains about those faithful; people still alive at the end of the Millennium, in 1 Corinthians 15:51:52

At the GWTJ I only see the bible calling that group the dead despite a resurrection already having happened which means they are spiritually dead which means none of them are receiving immortality/reward. None are saved.

Your are wrong, as the final Judgment is for everyone who has ever lived. ALL the dead from Adam, to 7000 years later.

 

[Douggg]

Your are wrong, as the final Judgment is for everyone who has ever lived. ALL the dead from Adam, to 7000 years later.

The beast and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire, 1000 years before the Great White Throne judgment.

 

[Keraz]

The beast and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire, 1000 years before the Great White Throne judgment.

Rev 19:20 does seem to say they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire by Jesus at His Return. It isn't 100% certain about that in my REB.
An exception does not make the rule..

 

[Douggg]

Rev 19:20 does seem to say they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire by Jesus at His Return. It isn't 100% certain about that in my REB.
An exception does not make the rule..

Please provide the Revelation 19:19-21 verses from the 1989 REB bible you are using.

 

[Keraz]

Please provide the Revelation 19:19-21 verses from the 1989 REB bible you are using.

Actually, looking at Rev 20:10b, it does confirm that the beast and the false prophet are flung info the Lake of Fire when Jesus defeats them at His Return.
I say again that an exception does not make the rule. And I see in Rev 20:15, reference to the Book of Life, which will only be opened at the GWT Judgment; AFTER the Millennium. For ALL the rest of the dead.