HELLUCINATIONS

[ewq1938]

Paul explains about those faithful; people still alive at the end of the Millennium, in 1 Corinthians 15:51:52

No, that's survivors of the GT not the Millennium.

Your are wrong, as the final Judgment is for everyone who has ever lived. ALL the dead from Adam, to 7000 years later.

No. The only people judged at the GWTJ are called "dead" despite having a resurrection because they are spiritually dead and they came from death and hell etc, not from heaven where saved people are.

 

[ewq1938]

The beast and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire, 1000 years before the Great White Throne judgment.

satan is also cast into the LOF before the GWTJ takes place, but after the Mill rather then before it like the two beasts.

 

[Phoneman777]

KJV only- 2 Thes. 1:7-10. Notice the word "WHEN" being used twice.
It will be a simultaneous event!
That is not the "Pretribbers" rapture, however it will be the Day when all God's Saints shall be glorified.

Yep, and if you back to the beginning of the chapter, we see that "the coming of the Lord and our gathering together with Him" is called "the day" and "that day" - nowhere do we read about this as a plurality of "days" with one happening at "X" and the other happening 7 years later.

 

[Keraz]

The only people judged at the GWTJ are called "dead" despite having a resurrection because they are spiritually dead and they came from death and hell etc, not from heaven where saved people are.

We know from scriptures like Job 14:12, Acts 13:36, +, that dead people 'sleep' as they await the Day all will stand before God in Judgment.

Your failure to provide scriptural support for your beliefs, shows up your errors.
There is no scripture which says - saved people live in heaven. Or the unsaved go to hell.

 

[ewq1938]

We know from scriptures like Job 14:12, Acts 13:36, +, that dead people 'sleep' as they await the Day all will stand before God in Judgment.

You avoided commenting directly to the content of my post. I won't comment on yours because it is a red herring fallacy to change the subject away from the things I brought up.

 

[Keraz]

You avoided commenting directly to the content of my post. I won't comment on yours because it is a red herring fallacy to change the subject away from the things I brought up.

I proved by using scripture, that those who stand before God, as per Rev 20:12, include ALL the dead,

No one goes to live in heaven, Jesus said so; John 3:13 and after the Millennium, God and heaven come to the new earth.

 

[ewq1938]

I proved by using scripture, that those who stand before God, as per Rev 20:12, include ALL the dead,

The saved are alive not dead. The only people at the DWTJ are spiritually dead and come from hell and death. No one gets immortality at the second judgment. Life comes only at the first judgment.

No one goes to live in heaven, Jesus said so; John 3:13 and after the Millennium, God and heaven come to the new earth.

John 3:13 does not support your claim. This isn't about anyone able to ascend into heaven on their own as Christ did.

Jesus brings people with him from heaven:

1Th_4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[Keraz]

Life comes only at the first judgment.

What 'First Judgment"?
Of individuals, as Jesus only judges the nations at His Return. Matthew 25:31-33

1Th_4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This refers to the GT martyrs, and no one else. Revelation 20:4-6

 

[ewq1938]

What 'First Judgment"?

The one in Rev 20.

Of individuals, as Jesus only judges the nations at His Return. Matthew 25:31-33

That's not his return/second coming because the sending people into the fire happens a very long time after the second coming. You are Premill, you should know that.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Not second coming timeframe.

This refers to the GT martyrs, and no one else. Revelation 20:4-6

Yep, but the dead in Christ rise first which is the same exact timeframe the beheaded rise. All the saved dead rise at the same time.

 

[Keraz]

The one in Rev 20.

Plainly stated and irrefutably -AFTER the thousand years have passed.

Yep, but the dead in Christ rise first which is the same exact timeframe the beheaded rise. All the saved dead rise at the same time.

You are a recidivist adder to scripture. All, is not in 1 Cor 15:23
To think it is, is to conflict with Revelation 20:5

 

[ewq1938]

Plainly stated and irrefutably -AFTER the thousand years have passed.

That's the second judgement. The first one is BEFORE the Mill.

 

[Scott Downey]

I had a vision of the rapture. Two people were dancing slow and arms around each other. Then, the man shot straight up. So fast the women still had her arms in the air, still dancing.

This vision from Jesus, is just like Apostle Paul's description.

1 Corinthians 15:52-53 - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we (who are alive) shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Matthew 24:40-41 - Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

My understanding is the exact opposite of yours, The ones taken are taken away to destruction, gathered by angels and cast into hell fire.
Note the parable of the wheat and tares.
This happens at the return of Christ. Jesus said the meek shall inherit the earth, while the wicked will be destroyed, so who is left behind? The believers remain on earth with the Lord, yes, we rise to meet Christ in the air as He is returning to earth at the second appearing.
But then we all come down here together and the wicked are ashes under our feet on the Day of the Lord.

The Parable of the Tares Explained​

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

 

[Rockerduck]

My understanding is the exact opposite of yours, The ones taken are taken away to destruction, gathered by angels and cast into hell fire.
Note the parable of the wheat and tares.
This happens at the return of Christ. Jesus said the meek shall inherit the earth, while the wicked will be destroyed, so who is left behind? The believers remain on earth with the Lord, yes, we rise to meet Christ in the air as He is returning to earth at the second appearing.
But then we all come down here together and the wicked are ashes under our feet on the Day of the Lord.

The Parable of the Tares Explained​

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

I've preached that parable several times and am well familiar with it. The vision did not say which one was taken, the fact that it happened in a nano second is what matters.

 

[ewq1938]

I had a vision of the rapture. Two people were dancing slow and arms around each other. Then, the man shot straight up. So fast the women still had her arms in the air, still dancing.

This vision from Jesus, is just like Apostle Paul's description.

1 Corinthians 15:52-53 - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we (who are alive) shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Except that verse addresses the speed of the resurrection to immortality and the change of the living from mortals to immortals. The rapture isn't even addressed there.

A saved person also is not going to be dancing with an unsaved person when the rapture happens.

 

[ewq1938]

My understanding is the exact opposite of yours, The ones taken are taken away to destruction, gathered by angels and cast into hell fire.

That's not what the Greek word in that passage means in the Greek. The Greek word for LEFT means to die though. You have them mixed up. The TAKEN are accepted and greeted like family meeting family, while LEFT means to be abandoned, rejected and left for dead. You never looked at the Greek definitions?

taken
3880

3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}

from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v

AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50

1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
1a) an associate, a companion
1b) metaph.
1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
2) to receive something transmitted
2a) an office to be discharged
2b) to receive with the mind
2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
tradition proceeds
2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
(used of disciples)

"to take with one's self"
"to join to one's self"
"an associate"
"a companion"
"not to reject"

Luk 18:31 Then he took (paralambano) unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.


Same word and meaning here.


Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again (second coming reference), and receive you (paralambano) unto myself (rapture reference); that where I am, there ye may be also.



This is the rapture and guess what? The same exact word and meaning is here too. The one taken is a reference to the rapture.


The one left (this word means to divorce, leave to die and reject) are those left to suffer God's wrath and possibly die.



left
863

863 aphiemi {af-ee'-ay-mee}

from 575 and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go);
TDNT - 1:509,88; v

AV - leave 52, forgive 47, suffer 14, let 8, forsake 6, let alone 6,
misc 13; 146

1) to send away
1a) to bid going away or depart
1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife
1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
1c) to let go, let alone, let be
1c1) to disregard
1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers
1c3) to omit, neglect
1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
1e) to give up, keep no longer
2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
3) to leave, go way from one
3a) in order to go to another place
3b) to depart from any one
3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all
mutual claims are abandoned
3d) to desert wrongfully
3e) to go away leaving something behind
3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
3i) abandon, leave destitute

"to send away"
"of a husband divorcing his wife"
"to expire"
"to disregard"
"neglect"
"keep no longer"
"to leave on dying"
"leave behind one"
"abandon, leave destitute"

That's the complete opposite as being "taken" and is very negative. Do you
want to be rejected at the return of Christ or do you want to be accepted?
Christ takes the first one from the field and the rest is "left" by him, and
are "kept no longer".






Who was TAKEN by the Ark?
Who was LEFT outside the Ark?
Who was TAKEN to a safe place to live?
Who was LEFT to die in an unsafe place?

Who was TAKEN out of Sodom?
Who was LEFT in Sodom?
Who was TAKEN to a safe place to live?
Who was LEFT to die in an unsafe place?

Why does TAKEN/paralambano¯ mean to accept as a companion and does NOT mean to reject and leave to die?
Why does LEFT/aphie¯mi mean to reject and leave someone to die and does NOT mean to accept as a companion?

Why does TAKEN/paralambano¯ mean you survive?
Why does LEFT/aphie¯mi mean you do not survive?

 

[Rockerduck]

Except that verse addresses the speed of the resurrection to immortality and the change of the living from mortals to immortals. The rapture isn't even addressed there.

A saved person also is not going to be dancing with an unsaved person when the rapture happens.

Then why are two in the bed, one taken and the other left. Luke 17:34.

 

[Scott Downey]

I've preached that parable several times and am well familiar with it. The vision did not say which one was taken, the fact that it happened in a nano second is what matters.

So you're not a fan of the Left Behind theology?
I find it unscriptural. Christian fiction.
John 17:15
I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

And that raising up another separate body of believers after the rapture...., does not align with Christ's description of the end, as like Noah, Lot. There are no two second returns of Christ, just one.

Or Malachi 4 or even the verses quoted about the rapture, don't agree with what the verses are saying.

I used to believe all that left behind stuff until I started looking into what the word actually says.

 

[Rockerduck]

So you're not a fan of the Left Behind theology?
I find it unscriptural. Christian fiction.
John 17:15
I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

And that raising up another separate body of believers after the rapture...., does not align with Christ's description of the end, as like Noah, Lot. There are no two second returns of Christ, just one.

Or Malachi 4 or even the verses quoted about the rapture, don't agree with what the verses are saying.

I used to believe all that left behind stuff until I started looking into what the word actually says.

I don't interpret the dreams. I don't know why you are assuming what I believe.

 

[Scott Downey]

I don't interpret the dreams. I don't know why you are assuming what I believe.

Just part of the discussion. Eschatology is a forum to talk about these things.

 

[Rockerduck]

Just part of the discussion. Eschatology is a forum to talk about these things.

One thing I know from studies of Jesus is that He arrived on time, but not the way they expected. John the Baptist was even doubtful from his prison cell whether Jesus was the "one". In the same way, we don't know what to expect, only from what Jesus Himself says. In the weeds and wheat parable, the weeds are gathered first and burned, then the wheat is gathered to the barn. In Luke, we see one taken up and the other left. In
1 Corinthians 15:52, Paul says in a moment, in the twinkling of and eye, at the last trump, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Like my dream/vision, in a twinkling of an eye, a nanosecond.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 says the same thing. The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive will meet them.
Paul says: absent from the body, present with Christ in 2 Corinthians 5:8. Paul says we are confident in this.

Conclusion: Jesus is coming soon. We in Christ will be present with Jesus in a nanosecond, incorruptible. But somebody has to be left behind.