Help... the four creatures in front of the throne in Revelation

[Wick Stick]

o Cherubim are not angels, nor are they "angelic."

That goes against a couple thousand years' worth of tradition.

The Bible describes cherubim as having wings and faces, animal attributes, and they seem to be used as God's throne/chariot. They are depicted that way in art from Babylon, Persia, and the other surrounding countries:

 

[William Barton]

Wick Stick noted:
>cherubim as having wings>

Yes, cherubim have wings, I never said otherwise. Rather I said angels do not have wings. Angels look like men (Daniel 20:18-19). Do men have wings?

Satin is not an angel, he is a cherub (Ezekiel 38:14). Cherubim have wings (Ezekiel 1:5-6).

 

[Wick Stick]

Wick Stick noted:
>cherubim as having wings>

Yes, cherubim have wings, I never said otherwise. Rather I said angels do not have wings. Angels look like men (Daniel 20:18-19).

Satin is not an angel, he is a cherub (Ezekiel 38:14). Cherubim have wings (Ezekiel 1:5-6).

How did you come to believe that cherubim are not angels?

 

[William Barton]

Wick Stick inquired:
>How did you come to believe that cherubim are not angels?>

Angels look like men, cherubim have wings. That seemed different to me.

 

[Wick Stick]

Wick Stick inquired:
>How did you come to believe that cherubim are not angels?>

Angels look like men, cherubim have wings. That seemed different to me.

My understanding is that the word 'angel' is more of a description than a certain type of being. It just means messenger. If that's true, then any messenger is potentially an 'angel.'

Most often, that's just a person. Angels look like people, because they are people. Communications works best between people. The OT "angel of the LORD" is the LORD of all creation, but in human form.

But sometimes in the Bible, the message is seen in the heavens. So then, stars (or constellations of stars) may be 'angels.'

YHVH Tsabaoth is the LORD of Hosts, and it isn't entirely clearly whether the hosts are stars, or angels, or both. The Biblical authors perhaps don't draw that distinction because for them, they were simply the same thing.

 

[William Barton]

Wick Stick asked::

"How did you come to believe that cherubim are not angels? "

Angels:
"...one who looked like a *man* (Daniel 8:15, 10:18)

"Angel" stems from Greek ανγελος = "messenger." Heavenly angels look like men, and they are indeed God's messengers. See Luke 2:18-14.

Satan is a cherub. The appearance of cherubim is weird. See Ezekiel 1:5-11, 10:8-14, 28:14-19.

Wick Stick also noted:

<"angel"... means messenger>

I agree, I am familiar with Latin, Greek, and Hebrew. My name "William" means "resolute conqueror." It's a name.

 

[William Barton]

CTK asked: "Isn't sin a choice?"

IMO:

God wrote the play, we are the actors. Search: Shakespeare, "All the World's a Stage," Act II, Scene VII, Line 139.

I taped the monologue above to my kitchen cupboard, to remind me who I am. From our perspective we choose (Romans 9:19-29).

 

[CTK]

CTK asked: "Isn't sin a choice?"

IMO: God wrote the play, we are the actors. See Romans 9:19.

Also search "All the World's a Stage" (Shakespeare)

That’s not a good answer to a very serious claim that God created sin.

You know that is not true… I hope!

 

[William Barton]

CTK noted:

<That’s not a good answer to a very serious claim that God created sin.>

I suggest you read Romans 9:14-29, then send an email to the apostle Paul in heaven and tell him you know better.

IMO ultimately there is no totally "free will," rather that is a human perspective. We are all created beings. Shakespeare expressed it this way:

"All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players."
("As You Like It," spoken by Jaques)

 

[Wick Stick]

Ultimately there is no "free will," rather that is a human perspective.

Well, there's such a thing as will. Is there any such thing as un-free will?

 

[Mosheli]

I am in the process of comopleting a commentary on Revelation. Does anyone have any thoughts on who these 4 are?
,


I have read they are 4 angels,
They represent the 4 gospels,
They also might represent the 4 section that surround the Tabernacle in the wilderness,

Doesn't the earthly sanctuary represnt the heavenly throne room? If so, do we find them in the earthly Temple?

Put on your thinking caps... this just might be a tough one. Thanks.

I've read that the angels and/or Adonai have four faces Lion, Ox, Man, Eagle (Ezekiel 1).

Also they match the four zodiac compass points Leo, Taurus, Aquarius, Scorpio/Aquila: so the throne of God in the center could be the sun or earth, and 24 elders 2 x 12 signs (Northern & Southern)?

The temple in Heaven not the throne is the counterpart or the earthly temple.

 

[Anchorite]

Yes, humans have choice, responsibility to exercise conscious will, one way or another. If we were just puppets with no volition, no act could be labeled as sin.

Joshua 24:15

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

 

[shepherdsword]

I am in the process of comopleting a commentary on Revelation. Does anyone have any thoughts on who these 4 are?
,


I have read they are 4 angels,
They represent the 4 gospels,
They also might represent the 4 section that surround the Tabernacle in the wilderness,

Doesn't the earthly sanctuary represnt the heavenly throne room? If so, do we find them in the earthly Temple?

Put on your thinking caps... this just might be a tough one. Thanks.

Are the four living creatures in Rev the same as the seraphim in Isa 6:2? How about the Cherubim in Eze 1:5 and 10:14? They all seem very similar

 

[William Barton]

Wick Stick noted:
<Well, there's such a thing as will. Is there any such thing as un-free will?>

The characters in a novel have totally free will from their own perspective, as do we.

 

[William Barton]

Shepherdsword asked: "four living creatures."

IMO:

The "creatures" (Revelation and Ezekiel) are "Cherubim."

"Creatures" refers to their ability to change their appearance to that of a creature. Satan is a Cherub.

See Ezekiel 28. It describes the King of Tyre, but subtly refers to Satan as well, the cherub who supports him.

 

[William Barton]

Wick Stick noted:

<Well, there's such a thing as will. Is there any such thing as un-free will?>

IMO:
The characters in a play perceive themselves as having free will. We are in a similar situation, since we are created beings.

We are born, we look around, and we perceive ourselves as being in charge. That is true in a sense, since we are commissioned to "subdue the earth" (i.e. make use of it, Genesis 1:27-31). But the fact is that the only one with truly "free will" is our God.

 

[William Barton]

Wick Stick inquired:

>Is there any such thing as un-free will?>

Yes, the moon rotates around the earth, and apparently he is getting tired of doing it, but he is not allowed to stop.

On the other hand, he was quite happy when we named a word ("month)" after him.

 

[William Barton]

"Four living creature" (Ezekiel 1:4-14) are cherubim.

:

 

[Wick Stick]

My name "William" means "resolute conqueror." It's a name.

We have many Williams in my family. Here it means, "I'm a hillbilly, too."

 

[Wick Stick]

Wick Stick noted:

<Well, there's such a thing as will. Is there any such thing as un-free will?>

IMO:
The characters in a play perceive themselves as having free will. We are in a similar situation, since we are created beings.

We are born, we look around, and we perceive ourselves as being in charge. That is true in a sense, since we are commissioned to "subdue the earth" (i.e. make use of it, Genesis 1:27-31). But the fact is that the only one with truly "free will" is our God.

Are you perhaps speaking of sovereignty, rather than free will? God is sovereign. People are not.

I have found that debates on predestination and free will are usually all wrong-headed.