Here is what it all comes down to—- and you’d better get it right!

[marks]

I don’t think I’ve ever heard him say what he thinks about where a man who doesn’t hold fast goes…

His terminology is that you are saved while you continue to believe, but if you stop believing, you stop being saved. As far as where they go, I'd guess back to being flesh, isn't that the normal answer for the born again becoming 'unsaved'?

I'm sorry, I just find this thinking so illogical and so unScriptural. There are so many plainly stated passages which tell us that the born again will not be lost.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Another big question - 11 Let the one who is doing harm continue to do harm; let the one who is vile continue to be vile; let the one who is righteous continue to live righteously; let the one who is holy continue to be holy.”

Some think these are two different men. I think it is 4. I think there were 4 rivers out of eden and 4 directions a man could go, or end at.

one does harm.
One is filthy.
One is righteous.
One is holy.

verses seem to suggest the holy will rule over the righteous in the millennium. But the millennial kingdom sounds like a greatly improved place. That wouldn’t be a bad thousand years.

If these are 4 different men, do they all go to the exact same fate. Does a man who has done great harm go to the same place for eternity as a man who is filthy but hasn’t done great harm to others?

 

[marks]

There are a lot of questions, right? Keep trusting God, that’s crucial, but there are so many questions? like, how will it be better for sodom in the end than for religious hypocrites? If both are in eternal torment, living in pain forever, in the same exact place, how does that make sense? And if every man ever bornlives forever, what is the second death?.

The judgement for works is one thing, and the Lake of Fire for those not written in the Book of Life is another thing. And while the lake of fire is the same lake of fire, it may well be that one person's experience of it may be worse than another's.

"He who has suffered has ceased from sin".

How does God prevent the unrepentant sinner from continuing in sin without "taking over" his will?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I'm sorry, I just find this thinking so illogical and so unScriptural. There are so many plainly stated passages which tell us that the born again will not be lost.

Yes. The problem is the verses that seem to say the opposite. If you don’t work them in, you’re not eating the bitter herbs that must be eaten with the Passover lamb.

The man ate the scroll he was given and it was sweet to his taste but then became bitter in his stomach.

 

[marks]

Another big question - 11 Let the one who is doing harm continue to do harm; let the one who is vile continue to be vile; let the one who is righteous continue to live righteously; let the one who is holy continue to be holy.”

Some think these are two different men. I think it is 4. I think there were 4 rivers out of eden and 4 directions a man could go, or end at.

one does harm.
One is filthy.
One is righteous.
One is holy.

verses seem to suggest the holy will rule over the righteous in the millennium. But the millennial kingdom sounds like a greatly improved place. That wouldn’t be a bad thousand years.

If these are 4 different men, do they all go to the exact same fate. Does a man who has done great harm go to the same place for eternity as a man who is filthy but hasn’t done great harm to others?

I don't think that's what this verse is saying.

I think God will put a complete end to sin, to unrighteousness, to filthiness.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes. The problem is the verses that seem to say the opposite. If you don’t work them in, you’re not eating the bitter herbs that must be eaten with the Passover lamb.

Aren't you assuming something here? Which are the passages that I'm not "working in"? Is that what you mean?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Aren't you assuming something here?

Much love!

what am I assuming?

 

[marks]

what am I assuming?

Sorry . . . I edited I guess while you were posting . . .

Maybe that there are verses I'm not "working in"?

Much love!

 

[marks]

The problem is the verses that seem to say the opposite.

I think the problem is with verses that "seem to say". We need to reach an understanding of what they do actually say, so we know how to work them in.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Sorry . . . I edited I guess while you were posting . . .

Maybe that there are verses I'm not "working in"?

Much love!

You aren’t working on any of the bitter verses. You explain them away or ignore them rather than struggling with them.

 

[marks]

You aren’t working on any of the bitter verses. You explain them away or ignore them rather than struggling with them.

That's the assumption.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I’ve watched you do it for years.

 

[marks]

Explain them away is pejorative for interpret differently than me.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Any warnings are not for you. The apostles gave many warnings but they’re never for you. Even when the apostles were speaking to believers and giving those warnings to believers, it’s impossible that they could be for you. The faith of some having been shipwrecked? Impossible for you. Take care that your own heart doesn’t become evil and unbelieving? Impossible that the warning be for you.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

To be clear . . . these are your words, and do not represent me.

Much love!

No?
Do you think it would ever be possible for your trust to be shipwrecked? Do you think it would ever be possible for your heart to become evil and untrusting?

 

[marks]

No?
Do you think it would ever be possible for your trust to be shipwrecked? Do you think it would ever be possible for your heart to become evil and untrusting?

What does it mean to you for faith to become shipwrecked? That you will be cast into hell? Again, this is a longer conversation, but I don't think this will edify further.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Hebrews 3:12 KJV
12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Is "brethren" here referring to brothers according to the flesh, ie the Hebrews, or brothers according to the Spirit, ie, Christians?

Is this a fair question to ask?

Does there being in one an evil heart of unbelief, is it correct to think that there was previously a righteous believing heart, that has now come to be an evil heart of unbelief? Or is that an assumption some make without foundation?

Are these fair questions to ask?

Do these questions have answers? Is it dishonest to ask these questions, and to seek their answers?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What does it mean to you for faith to become shipwrecked? That you will be cast into hell? Again, this is a longer conversation, but I don't think this will edify further.

Much love!

Why does that matter? The question is why none of the warnings are for you.

You are defending something and it makes you not wrestle with the bitter verses.

 

[BarneyFife]

He parses according to "these sins will separate you from God" and "these sins will not separate you from God", that is, if you sin this way, you remain saved. But if you sin that way, you do not.

So then some sins will result in you becoming "unborn again", while others do not.

@Ferris Bueller

Is this correct?

Much love!

But you kinda didn't answer the question. Is he advocating sin or isn't he? I think we all know that any sins not covered by the blood of Christ will have to be paid for by the sinner himself. It's another glass half-empty/half-full thing. No one's condoning sin here, in my opinion (although we seem to be determined to pin that rap on each other). FB is just saying that the quality of God's mercy is not strained for those who walk with Him and endure to the end. Am I wrong?

After all, aren't we really arguing over what is implied by the 2 basic views of assurance, rather than what is condoned?

 

[BarneyFife]

Hebrews 3:12 KJV
12) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Is "brethren" here referring to brothers according to the flesh, ie the Hebrews, or brothers according to the Spirit, ie, Christians?

Is this a fair question to ask?

Does there being in one an evil heart of unbelief, is it correct to think that there was previously a righteous believing heart, that has now come to be an evil heart of unbelief? Or is that an assumption some make without foundation?

Are these fair questions to ask?

Do these questions have answers? Is it dishonest to ask these questions, and to seek their answers?

Much love!

The questions have been asked and answered by both sides of the argument thousands of times.

The real question being asked by too many is:

Is it honest to disagree?