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Here's a question

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Jerry, Aug 26, 2007.

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  1. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    revelation 22 :14 blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.*15 for without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. * who is this refering to=this is after the second death
    It's really not an issue if you don't try so hard to read the traditions of men into it. Clearly, the progression of time of Revelation breaks in the first part of Revelation 22. Those who don't make the cut are on the outside of the city, going to the lake of fire, and those that do make it are in the city. Trying to make this literal - as you want to say - presents a bit of a problem because either all of these bad apples are just running around outside the city walls, or they are in the lake of fire somehow being tortured.The message here is that these are left outside of the city, it doesn't have anything to do with the timing. When the judgment is handed down, they'll clearly not be there in the city. That is hardly evidence for eternal punishment.
     
  2. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    I'm headed to bed myself. Past my bedtime. [​IMG]
     
  3. tim bennett

    tim bennett New Member

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    but revelation 20 :10 cannot be taken anyway but literally=and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever=that is undisputable!
     
  4. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    I asked Denver about this. Here was his answer.(Denver)
    The phrase second death occurs 4 times, all in Revelation. I've provided the verses below:Revelation 2:11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.Revelation 20:6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.Revelation 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.Revelation 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.There is a verse in Revelation which holds a bit of a key.Revelation 20:15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.The second death is the lake of fire. That being said, jump back up to 10 of the same chapter.Revelation 20:10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.Now most people jump on that and say "oh the second death must be eternal damnation!" The key here is that this is a Hebraism in the Greek that means until the age of ages which means completion. Let me go back to the second death.What does it mean to die? Shortest answer is to cease living. It is appointed unto all men to die once (Hebrews 9:27). This is the first death - the physical one that separates us from this physical body and this is most beautifully spoken of in Ecclesiastes 12.All souls return to God.Ecclesiastes 12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.To bring you to the answer, I jump to Matthew and the words of Christ himself:Matthew 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.The second death is destruction.Revelation 19:3And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.Revelation 14:11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.This again goes to the Hebraism (through the Greek of the NT, of course) of smoke that rises forever and ever. The smoke of the pit goes up forever and ever, but that doesn't mean the torment does.Revelation 3:5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.Those thrown into the lake cease to exist.-Denver
     
  5. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Revelation 20:9 "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." This beloved city is Jerusalem where Jesus Christ and His temple will be at the close of the Millennium age. It is here where the glory of God is, and God's fire from heaven will come down to devour Satan and all his followers.This is the "great day of God" when the full god-head comes to dwell on earth with His saints forever. This is different from the "day of the Lord", which was 1,000 years earlier, that took place at the seventh trump when Jesus Christ came and set up His kingdom for the Millennium.Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." In Ezekiel 28:16-19, Satan is promised that he will be destroyed from within and turned to ashes. Once a soul is turned to ashes, it is finished. Satan can cause harm to your body but only God can destroy your soul
     
  6. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    Now Jesus will rule the earth for 1,000 years. And judge all. And those who rebel will be cast out. Will death be gone during the millennium? [​IMG]
     
  7. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    Okay. Someone else gave me these verses. And it supports my original argument.
    What about the verse that says "their worm shall never die" or the one that says "false prophets will undergo greater damnation"? See the verses below:Isaiah 66:24 (King James Version)24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.Mark 9:43-49 (King James Version)43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.Matthew 23:14 (King James Version)14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.Mark 12:40 (King James Version)40Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.Luke 20:47 (King James Version)47Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.How can one recieve a greater damnation if to be damned is simply to die?

    Regarding your post about the second death.
    Revelation 14:11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.This again goes to the Hebraism (through the Greek of the NT, of course) of smoke that rises forever and ever. The smoke of the pit goes up forever and ever, but that doesn't mean the torment does.
    Old TestamentDan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.Dan 12:2 And many7227 of them that sleep4480, 3463 in the dust6083 of the earth127 shall awake,6974 some428 to everlasting5769 life,2416 and some428 to shame2781 and everlasting5769 contempt.1860(The same number means it's the same word in the Hebrew)Strong's defines this as:H5769עלם עולם‛ôlâm ‛ôlâmo-lawm', o-lawm'From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.New TestamentMat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.Mat 25:46 And2532 these3778 shall go away565 into1519 everlasting166 punishment:2851 but1161 the3588 righteous1342 into1519 life2222 eternal.166(The same number means it's the same word in the Greek.)Strong's defines this as:G166αἰώνιοςaiōniosahee-o'-nee-osFrom G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).Thayer's defines it as:G166αἰώνιοςaiōniosThayer Definition:1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be2) without beginning3) without end, never to cease, everlastingPart of Speech: adjectiveA Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G165Citing in TDNT: 1:208, 31Please consider this post, and think about it!
     
  8. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    but revelation 20 :10 cannot be taken anyway but literally=and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever=that is undisputable!
    I was waiting on that one. That's the single verse in the entire Bible that can understandably be used to get eternal torture without deeper study.The Greek word rendered for ever and ever is aion. It's Strong's G165:1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity2) the worlds, universe3) period of time, ageIf you'll notice, the great white throne judgement takes place right after this verse. The age is not complete, it was just a given that Lucifer would be the first into the pit because he's been condemned for a very, very long time (Ezekiel 28). This here is refering to not forever and ever, but the end of the age. Fire burns needless to say, so this is a process to be completed through the judgment.And as I pointed out to Wakka above, neither phrase shown says anything about torture. It's an eternal punishment that will last eternally. There's no coming back from the lake of fire.
     
  9. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    Alright. But what about the worm that never dies out?
     
  10. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Easily, this again says nothing about eternal torture:Matthew 3:11-12I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.God is the unquenchable fire that will burn up those that don't make the cut. God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29) and for those of us that love him, there's nothing to fear. But, that fire will burn up those that work iniquity very quickly. It just as in Revelation where the smoke, on several occasions, rises for ever and ever. That's a Hebraism (in the Greek here, obviously) about the smoke rising and doesn't have anything to do with eternal torture. Man has just decided to fill that into the "gaps" - and I use that word very lightly. A little studying reveals it to be flawed.
     
  11. tim bennett

    tim bennett New Member

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    denver what is it you have against eternal torture for the rejectors of jesus=it is their choice not yours. the mammon doctrine of "annihilation" i guess appeals to the liberal persuasion. jesus himself referred hell as hell fire=it is not going to be a pleasant place. i am tired of doing others homework but check out the verse where he seperates the goats from sheep=you tell me what you think. but i do not want to hate on those that disagree with me=soo good debate=i am off this one=i may find that verse for you though! i guess liberals think that if our god tourtures people because of their " unsalvation " choice= he is a mean god!? and please explain away mathew 25:46=and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.* i mean why would the unbelievers of jesus not get a piece of the eternal pie too? i am off this one=and waca=seems like you are an intelligent person=why ask anyone else their opinion=the bible is a pretty easy read=in black and white=i can read for myself= so can you=we have the scripture to back it up, everyone does! thanks for telling me about edit waca=sorry if i seemed a little grough. and please explain one more mathew 25:41=then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.* and for the young lady who wanted me to show her where that if we do not worship jesus the bible states we will go to eternal hell=check out mathew 25:41-46. if you still do not believe that jesus will send the "unsaved" to everlasting torment and damnation= i guess i am throwing pearls to the swine. god bless you, and study jesus' word!
     
  12. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    (tim bennett;16055)
    denver what is it you have against eternal torture for the rejectors of jesus=it is their choice not yours. the mammon doctrine of "annihilation" i guess appeals to the liberal persuasion. jesus himself referred hell as hell fire=it is not going to be a pleasant place. i am tired of doing others homework but check out the verse where he seperates the goats from sheep=you tell me what you think. but i do not want to hate on those that disagree with me=soo good debate=i am off this one=i may find that verse for you though! i guess liberals think that if our god tourtures people because of their " unsalvation " choice= he is a mean god!? and please explain away mathew 25:46=and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.* i mean why would the unbelievers of jesus not get a piece of the eternal pie too? i am off this one=and waca=seems like you are an intelligent person=why ask anyone else their opinion=the bible is a pretty easy read=in black and white=i can read for myself= so can you=we have the scripture to back it up, everyone does! thanks for telling me about edit waca=sorry if i seemed a little grough. and please explain one more mathew 25:41=then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.* and for the young lady who wanted me to show her where that if we do not worship jesus the bible states we will go to eternal hell=check out mathew 25:41-46. if you still do not believe that jesus will send the "unsaved" to everlasting torment and damnation= i guess i am throwing pearls to the swine. god bless you, and study jesus' word!
    Excuse me for interrupting. But I feel this is important that we should not give false impression that God is so revengeful that He gives cruel never ending torture to those who don't trust Him or believe Him. It is totally out of context of God's character. I have been evangelizing and this kind of reputation for God is not helping evangelists of God. love, hitomi
     
  13. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    (Wakka;16035)
    Alright. But what about the worm that never dies out?
    The worms don't die; they just change into something else; sort of like a caterpillar changing into a butterfly.
     
  14. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    (verzanumi24;16061)
    The worms don't die; they just change into something else; sort of like a caterpillar changing into a butterfly.
    Ugh. I'm confused. What do they change to. I don't understand either your or Denver's post.
     
  15. tim bennett

    tim bennett New Member

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    well you need to evangelize the truth=we may be missing a valid point though. i do not worship jesus for fear of going to hell. i worship him because he is holy, and his spirit and guidance makes My life here on earth wonderful. not because he will bless me with health, high finances and a good social life. without jesus i go mad, and i am not content with anything, nothing. the fanatical sect of islam believe that they will go to paradise and meet many virgins of their choice if they kill infidels. that would scare me far more than a lord who would send me to hell if i did not believe in him=i have not that fear because i know jesus is the truth. and one more mark 9:42 and whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and where cast into the sea.* is that too violent for you? it is scriptural. mathew 9:43=and if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. * NEVER MEANS NEVER =HOW MANY TIMES IN THESE VERSES OF MARK 9: 42-50 DOES JESUS TELL US THAT THE FIRE OF HELL IS NEVER QUENCHED=AT LEAST 5=WHAT BOOK ARE YOU READING?
     
  16. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    The truth is there is no eternal burning in Hell.This is mans answer mans way of thinking Not God a loving all powerful God has no reason to eternally torture someone for revenge. Ask yourself to what end ? what pupose would this serve?
     
  17. tim bennett

    tim bennett New Member

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    so i am lying about the scripture i just posted? the bible is not true then, for i posted scripture right out of my king james bible. i guess the transliteration is wrong? man a live=i guess i have beat this dog to death. i guess you do not believe in jesus or the new testament if you say what i just posted is untrue. god bless you! hosanna!
     
  18. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    No, you just misunderstood God Words...It is men's lack of ability to understand it...It is men's problem, not God. Must you make name calling to others like brother Denver?Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.
     
  19. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    Ugh. I'm confused. What do they change to. I don't understand either your or Denver's post.
    What do maggots become when they have matured? Flies. So the maggots or worms did not die. What do maggots feed on? Dead and rotting flesh. There will be enough dead bodies for the maggots to feed on, so that they can mature into flies.
     
  20. tim bennett

    tim bennett New Member

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    sorry if that is name calling but i can read on at least a 3rd grade level=that is about all it takes to read mark 9:42-50. how else can a third grader interpret " hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. which this type of description of hell is mentioned 4 times, and another reference to hell being fire. how else can anyone interpret it? amen verzanumi 24=sanity is welcomed.
     
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