Go read Revelation 20 including the GWT
Don't ask me to read the Bible to you and don't ask me to quote the Bible when you by now should have read it.
HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT: Why I believe this about the timing of the NHNE
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Don't ask me to read the Bible to you and don't ask me to quote the Bible when you by now should have read it.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Why would you believe that people can fall away after being resurrected, but not be saved? That's completely ridiculous nonsense. Excuse me for not fully understanding your ludicrous beliefs.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Weak response! You are not even willing to explain exactly what you were intending to say and how you came to your conclusion. A sure sign of false teaching.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
How about you actually address what I said in my post first before asking questions? You are being very evasive. How do you reconcile your view with John 5:28-29?
Why do you deliberately misunderstand what I said and deliberately assert falsely that I said people cannot be saved and cannot have been saved if they fall away after being resurrected?
God ALONE has eternal life IN HIMSELF. That's why the scripture you ignore tells you that Christ alone possesses (His) immortality. You think that immortality means that created human beings cannot lose the source of their eternal life. You STILL have not learned the lesson.
I hope that you meet Adam after the resurrection. For your sake.
No you avoid answering anything that shows your views up to be false and then shoot questions out all the time and become evasive.
Anyway I must leave this platform now. Thank goodness. Because you make it so plain and clear that you're only interested in defending a your man-made Amil theology, not scripture. The Word of God says one thing, then YOU say .. It means what it means after you change its meaning by adding words to the text that do not exist and by taking away words from other texts and changing the meaning of yet other texts so that they do not mean what in the Word of God they mean.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. I didn't deliberately misunderstand anything. Your beliefs are confusing and ridiculous. Don't blame me that they are hard to follow. It's absolutely ludicrous to think that people can be saved after being resurrected or that they can fall away after being resurrected. As I said, and you foolishly dismissed, scripture says now is the time of salvation (2 Corinthians 6:1-2). The time when people are saved and fall away is during this lifetime, not after death.
But, He will give His people eternal life when His Son Jesus Christ returns, as shown in Matthew 25:31-46. That eternal life is just that. Eternal. Never ending. You can't lose eternal life.
I have nothing to learn from your nonsense. You make eternal life into something besides eternal life, which is ridiculous. An immortal body cannot die. The word immortal means that you can't die. But, you say immortal bodies can die and those with eternal life can lose their eternal. You have definitions of the words "eternal" and "immortal" all to yourself that don't exist in any dictionaries anywhere.
That would be great. I'd love to talk to Adam. But, why do you say that?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You are the one not willing to show exactly how you are coming to your conclusions, not me.
I agree. Take your time in coming back.
Wrong.
Blah blah blah. Again, take your time in coming back. Maybe when you come back you will actually share something meaningful and worthwhile instead of all this hot air.
Now apply that to Revelation 20:6 as well. Amil combined with NOSAS contradicts what you said---"That eternal life is just that. Eternal. Never ending. You can't lose eternal life". While Premil combined with NOSAS does not contradict what you said. The way you try and get around verse 6 is by insisting a bodily resurrection is not meant. That John, in Revelation 20, saw a spiritual resurrection of the saints being more important than a bodily resurrection of the saints. Unless you agree verse 6 is a bodily resurrection of the saints, you have no resurrection in ch 20 being a bodily resurrection of the saints.
Surely you are not going to argue that verse 5 supports a bodily resurrection of the saints? Meaning the rest of the dead that don't live again until the thousand years. Nowhere does that verse say nor imply that anyone who has part in the first resurrection, they don't live again until the thousand years expires. The rest of the dead is not meaning any of those that have part in the first resurrection. Because if it does, the rest of the dead would not need to wait to live again after the thousand years. They would already live again at the beginning of the millennium. They would be part of the first resurrection.
Why can you not see that the rest of the dead are meaning those that have done evil and are part of the resurrection unto damnation, not part of the resurrection unto life? Why can you not see that those in verses 4,6 are meaning those that have done good and are part of the resurrection unto life, not part of the resurrection unto damnation?
Then why do you believe that people can be saved after being resurrected from the dead? I certainly don't.
God is not going to give anyone eternal life when Jesus returns. He has already given us eternal life now in Christ. It's what causes the quickening of the dead body and the resurrection of the dead when Christ returns.
The eternal life which God gives to you in Christ, is in Christ who alone possesses it in Himself. You do not and never will possess eternal life in yourself. For you to believe that you will possess eternal life in yourself, is ludicrous. Your beliefs are ludicrous. Only God possesses eternal life in Himself.
Your belief that you will become another God in your own right possessing eternal life in yourself and will hence never be able to die, is both blasphemous and ludicrous, because scripture does not teach you that.
The one who does not abide in the Word of God who is Christ the Lord, whether now, or after the eternal life of Christ in you brings about the quickening and resurrection of your dead body when Christ returns, will wither and die before the resurrection because only God has eternal life in Himself - but after the resurrection you will not wither and die because God will throw you alive into the lake of fire because He created you and is able to destroy your soul and body in gehenna.
No one has anything to learn from your nonsense and the only people who believe you are the ones who already believe the same nonsense you believe.
You who makes the eternal life which only Christ possesses in Himself into something besides the eternal life which only God has in Himself - i.e you make it into an eternal life that you will possess in yourself rather than something that is given to you in Christ - which is both blasphemous and ludicrous because you are claiming that you will become another God, possessing eternal life in yourself rather than in Christ who alone has eternal life in Himself.
That's you. YOU have made eternal life which only Christ possesses in Himself into something YOU will possess IN YOURSELF, so that it would make no difference if you begin to follow the lies of the evil one following the day that the eternal life in Christ has quickened and raised your dead body.
You already believe his first lie, so I;m not too sure you won't believe him when God permits him one last time to present you with it again:
"Surely you will NOT die".
Your belief that you will possess eternal life in yourself is both blasphemous and ridiculous. You are NOT God your creator who possesses eternal life in Himself and has no beginning and no ending. You are part of THE CREATION. You are a creature. The eternal life you have been given IN HIM now is the same eternal life that you will ever have - it will always be IN HIM and will never be your possession so that you have it in yourself.
Never mind I'll talk to you below, because you won't believe Adam if you did ever meet him.
An immortal body is dependent upon the eternal life given to it to continue to be alive. And the eternal life which is given to it is in Christ who alone possesses that eternal life in Himself. Why do you believe the lie that you will not, most definitely, die?
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I don't beliee that. Where are you getting that from? Like many on this forum, you have poor reading comprehension skills.
So, tell me why oyou htink people can fall away after being resurrected if people can't be savd after being resurrected? Why would that be the case?
It doesn't really matter why you think that is the case, though. It is not taught in scripture anywhere that people will live on the earth after being resurrected. Scripture teaches that all people will either be resurrected unto everlasting life or unto everlasting damnation. The judgment will occur immediately after the dead are all resurrected.
Yes, He most certainly is. Jesus said so. What is your excuse for your ignorance?
Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left......46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
When He gives His people eternal life when He returns than that life will never end. I never said that Christ alone possesses eternal life, but He is free to give that gift to others and He will give it to those who belong to Him when he returns (Matt 25:31-46). You are the one with ludicrous beliefs because they are not based on scripture.
LOL. All you can do is make false accusations about me. You are evil! I do not believe that I will become another God. That is an evil and foolish accusation! You have lost your mind!
LOL. I never said I won't die, unless Jesus comes first. When Jesus comes at the last trumpet, my body will be changed to be made immortal and immortal bodies can't die. That' what the word immortal means. You have to create new definitions for words to keep your false doctrine afloat.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Where does Revelation 20:6 say something about eternal life?
How about you apply what it says in Revelation 1:5-6 about Jesus reigning now and His followers being priests now to Revelation 20:6? How about you explain how those who are alive and remain will avoid the second death since they will not have part in the first resurrection according to your understanding of the verse?
Why do you always make requests of others while you think you can just sit back and not have to explain how your own view lines up with scripture?
This is the way you try to argue things. From your emotional feelings rather than from the text itself. Scripture teaches that Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5). Why do you ignore that? I could make an argument like you're making here and ask you why the most important resurrection of all is not mentioned there? If you want to play that game, then I win. If it's based on which resurrection is the most important, then it has to be talking about Christ's resurrection and having part in that.
LOL. So what? You do not have the most important resurrection of all being mentioned in Revelation 20.
No kidding. Of course I wouldn't make that argument. The rest of the dead are contrasted with those who have part in the first resurrection.
LOL. When have I ever said otherwise? Never. Of course, that's who the rest of the dead are. You are showing AGAIN that you do not even understand what I believe. It's pointless for you to try to debate me when you so clearly do not even understand what I believe, for whatever reason. You do not even try to look at things from my perspective, so how can you debate against something that you do not understand? That's impossible to do.
I did not say otherwise! Hello? Wake up. The first resurrection is Christ's resurrection and all believers spiritually have part in it. The rest of the dead are those who will not be resurrected until after the thousand year and they will be cast into the lake of fire.
* Life exists IN God and only because God exists. Without the existence of God there is no life. He alone possesses (eternal) life [zoe] in Himself.
"In Him (God) we live | are alive [zao], and move, and have our being; For we are also his offspring." (Acts 17:28).
* Immortality is to be alive in the body forever because it's to be alive in a body that does not decay.
* The source of immortality is the continual supply of eternal life. The source of the continual supply of eternal life is God.
"In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." (John 1:4-5).
* The life of God exists in the Word of God. The Word of God is life, and light, and darkness cannot overcome it.
Not abiding in the Word of God causes death.
--- I am the vine, ye are the branches. Abide in me, and I in you, because if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned, and as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. --- (John 15:4-6, verses rearranged).
* Satan says,
"You shall NOT surely die". (Genesis 3:4).
"And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison. And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them." (Revelation 20:7-9).
* Satan has no power to deceive except the power given to his words of deceit by created human beings who believe his words.
* The life of God exists in the Word of God. The Word of God is life, and light, darkness cannot overcome it.
* Not abiding in the Word of God causes death. The source of immortality is the supply of eternal life. The source of eternal life is God.
Those who believe false theology based on false doctrine will never understand this, which is why Amillennialists will never understand this.
Copy @Davidpt hoping you will understand what I see about this, because I realize you disagree with what I'm saying about immortality.
I've given up on @Spiritual Israelite and won't talk to him about this anymore, because his limited understanding produced by his belief in the theology produced by Amil false doctrine makes him incapable of understanding it. Half the time he contradicts himself, saying that darkness cannot overcome light and that Satan was not "bound" from deceiving the nations in Old Testament times but has now been bound (or restricted or something) from deceiving the nations after Christ rose and the Holy Spirit was given. So there is no "prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2) deceiving the sons of disobedience (through the power that they give him to deceive them by believing his lying words). Paul apparently did not now what he was talking about.
"In Him (God) we live | are alive [zao], and move, and have our being; For we are also his offspring." (Acts 17:28).
* Immortality is to be alive in the body forever because it's to be alive in a body that does not decay.
* The source of immortality is the continual supply of eternal life. The source of the continual supply of eternal life is God.
"In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." (John 1:4-5).
* The life of God exists in the Word of God. The Word of God is life, and light, and darkness cannot overcome it.
Not abiding in the Word of God causes death.
--- I am the vine, ye are the branches. Abide in me, and I in you, because if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned, and as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. --- (John 15:4-6, verses rearranged).
* Satan says,
"You shall NOT surely die". (Genesis 3:4).
"And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison. And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them." (Revelation 20:7-9).
* Satan has no power to deceive except the power given to his words of deceit by created human beings who believe his words.
* The life of God exists in the Word of God. The Word of God is life, and light, darkness cannot overcome it.
* Not abiding in the Word of God causes death. The source of immortality is the supply of eternal life. The source of eternal life is God.
Those who believe false theology based on false doctrine will never understand this, which is why Amillennialists will never understand this.
Copy @Davidpt hoping you will understand what I see about this, because I realize you disagree with what I'm saying about immortality.
I've given up on @Spiritual Israelite and won't talk to him about this anymore, because his limited understanding produced by his belief in the theology produced by Amil false doctrine makes him incapable of understanding it. Half the time he contradicts himself, saying that darkness cannot overcome light and that Satan was not "bound" from deceiving the nations in Old Testament times but has now been bound (or restricted or something) from deceiving the nations after Christ rose and the Holy Spirit was given. So there is no "prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2) deceiving the sons of disobedience (through the power that they give him to deceive them by believing his lying words). Paul apparently did not now what he was talking about.
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Interesting thought. But you'd need to provide scriptural support before I could consider it for too long.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
There is no contradiction in my view. I, unlike you, acknowledge the effect that Christ's ministry, death, resurrection and the preaching of His gospel had on Satan while you foolishly act as if nothing changed for Satan from OT to NT times.
I said no such thing. All you are able to do is misrepresent my view since you can't refute what I actually believe.
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So this is interesting... Yes, there is much disagreement regarding who John is referring to in his vision in saying "the rest of the dead," and I'll get to that, but the first issue, it seems, is not who he is referring to, but the timeframe in which the rest of the dead who "come to life."
The first place of disagreement here, it seems to me, is that these "rest of the dead" do not "come to life until the thousand years were ended." And that can be read two different ways, both of which are valid (as I believe you said before, but since they are different, either one is correct and the other incorrect, or perhaps that they are both incorrect. The only impossibility there is that since the two different ways of reading this are directly opposed, they cannot both be correct. So, let's look at the two senses of reading ~ understanding that. In no particular order, "(t)he rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended" can possibly be understood thusly:
- that none of the rest of the dead came to life until after the thousand years were completely ended
- that all of the rest of the dead came to life through the course of the thousand years, and thus, in totality, came to life after the thousand years were completely ended
Now, back to what I was saying above regarding who John is referring to when he says, "the rest the dead"... Again, I'm not going to speak for SI, but only myself here:
- "The rest of the dead" are the rest of those who are born again and come to Jesus, Who is life. "The rest of the dead" is absolutely not meaning "those that have done evil and are part of the resurrection unto damnation," if only because they, like those referred to in verses 4 and 6, "come to life" and are "(b)lessed and holy (to share) in the first resurrection" and "over (whom) the second death has no power" and "will be priests of God and of Christ."
- And there's another thing that can be understood in two different (and valid) senses, but only one is correct: "will be priest of God and Christ"... are we to understand "will be" there as completely future? Or are we to understand it in the sense that they all become priests of God and Christ over the course of God's millennium and they will all be priests by... so at... the end of the millennium?
- The other thing I am compelled to say about this ~ and maybe this is a further note about point one above ~ is that I would strongly disagree with the implication that John, in relating this vision, changes who he is referring to from verse 4 to verse 5 and then changes back again in verse 6.
Think about it, David. And that's not to insinuate or say that you haven't; from you're posts it is clear that you are very thoughtful.
Grace and peace to you.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No, I do not agree with that. It clearly indicates that the rest of the dead do not come to life until after the thousand years are over and not "through the course of the thousand years".
In verse 4 I believe John referred to the dead who had part in the first resurrection. I believe that literally all believers have part in the first resurrection because I believe that Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5) and all believers spiritually have part in His resurrection (Col 2:12-13, Eph 2:4-6, etc.). The rest of the dead refer to unbelievers who will be resurrected after the thousand years and after Satan's little season and will then be judged and cast into the lake of fire, as described in Revelation 20:11-15.
The first part of verse 5 is a parenthetical statement regarding the rest of the dead and then he goes back to talking about those who he referenced in verse 4 and indicated that they are the ones who have part in the first resurrection.
The NIV even has that part of the verse in parentheses.
Revelation 20:5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
I've never seen an Amill indicate a belief that the rest of the dead refer to believers before.
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Okay, fair enough.
That the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended can validly be understood in two different ways, as I said above... and gave reason for. In addition, and in response to what you said here, clearly, at the end of verse 5, immediately after John has said, "the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended," he says, "This is the first resurrection." So, I would submit that he is, in saying "this is the first resurrection," referring to both those who "came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" and "the rest of the dead" who "did not come to life until the thousand years were ended."
I'm interested to hear what David has to say about what I said, if anything.
I'm not surprised. But that's not to say there aren't, looking at this from any perspective.
Grace and peace to you.
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