HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT: Why I believe this about the timing of the NHNE

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Spiritual Israelite

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Where you and I disagree is on who Revelation 20:6 is referring to. I believe those mentioned in Revelation 20:6 are the group who were beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast

- a subsection of the total population to be raised from the dead as per 1 Thess 4:16.

So also not necessarily including those mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 who clearly escaped that martyrdom.
Do you then see the reference to the dead in Christ being resurrected in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 as the second resurrection with the resurrection of only those who were beheaded as being the first resurrection?

When giving the order of bodily resurrections unto immortality in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, why did Paul only mention Christ's resurrection and the bodily resurrection of those who belong to Christ at His second coming if there was going to also be another, separate bodily resurrection besides what he mentioned?
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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LOL. Amil is growing on these forums because most Premils have realized that debating with an Amil is as bad as Paul (Premil) trying to get the Pharisees (Amil) to understand that a fisherman (Peter) understood what they misunderstood and could correctly interpret the scriptures that they misinterpreted - and hence, could and did and was correcting them.
You have your own brand of Premil. Where did Paul ever teach your brand of Premil (or any form of it, really)? I don't see anywhere where he taught that many of the dead who are resurrected will then live on the earth for a long time while being tested.
 
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Ronald D Milam

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Where is your rapture in Rev 4?
Do you understand that there are over-all themes in the bible? If not I would just be wasting effort.

The bible is about Israel, not the gentiles per se. So, its not silent about the pre trib. rapture per se, its just not about the gentiles overall, its about nation of Israel's 12 tribes. God never placed the Letters of Paul in the bible per se, and the Gospels ad to be by mere men, Jesus said if he testified of himself that testimony would not be true, hence we get different takes on the same events at times, these four Gospels were real testimonies by men. Ever see the movie Vantage Point? It shows an event from different points of view and they all see things differently, likewise in court trials, witnesses can testify to the same event very differently, so much so that forensics is their most trusted friend, not witness testimony.

There is ONE HIGE THEME, that Israel did not even understand, most Jews still do not see it and many Gentiles (may on here) do not put it together also. You want to see the Rapture in Rev. 4? I will show it, but first have to tie it all together in a tidy package.

So, God knows all history in advance because He of course lives in all time at once. Thus He gave Israel the Seven (7) Feasts and told them to celebrate these "appointed times" (KEY). They had no idea what God gave them was the whole future history of the world in accordance to God's dealing with mankind over the years up until the 2nd coming and the 1000 year reign.

Leviticus 23 lists these seven feasts in order of their seasonal observance: Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Pentecost, Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Booths or Tabernacles. (Now think about these as periods in real human time, 7 events in history that only the Messiah (Jesus) could fulfill)

Jesus fulfills the Spring Feasts

1.) Feast of Passover (Jesus himself, of course fulfilled thus, his blood atones all men's sin in history, from Adam until the very end of the age of mankind under Satan's rule over earth which Luke 4 says he has)

2.) Feast of Unleavened Bread (Jesus knew no sin, thus he also fulfilled this feast by not having ever sinned unlike any other man, he was both God and man. He never sinned, he was thus Unleavened)

3.) Feast of First-fruits ( Jesus fulfilled this by being raised from the dead as the First-fruits of God to overcome death. He thus was the first-fruits of God the Father, other fruits can now come in via his blood)

The only Summer Feast (think Gentile Church Age all unto itself, outside the other six feasts)

4.) Feast of Pentecost/Feast of Weeks
( Think Church Age Harvesting of Souls, this represents the Summer Harvest Season unto Israel, the First-fruits then the Harvest. Jesus was the First-fruits, now he sits at the right hand of God, the head of the Church Body, we are the body, he is the head, our high priest in heaven who directs our paths as we harvest souls for the Kingdom of God. But alas, what always ended the Harvest season in Israel every year? The Feast of Trumps which I must tie in here to make see all the tie ins between the 7 Feasts, the Pre Trib. Rapture and the 70th week. Once the Trumpets began to blow, they blew in 9 sets of 11 or 99 times, then on the "LAST TRUMP" or 100th Trump the Harvest Season (Church Age Harvest) was ended. So, now when you hear the "Last Trump" people need to understand why Paul called it the last trump, that was because when Jesus sounds as a Trump (see Rev 4:1) he is ending the Church Age Season of Harvesting souls, that is now turned over to the Two-witnesses for Israel and unto an Angel as Rev. 14:6 tells is, an Angel will preach the holy word unto the world, so the church is not on earth after this point because God's calling for the church, to harvest souls has ended, Judgment time is at hand, now the Bride will enter the Marriage Chambers for 7 years, and then the Marriage Feast comes)

The Fall Feasts that once again only pertain unto Israel are now at hand

5.) The Feast of Trumps
( The Feasts of Trumps always ended the Harvest Season, Jesus is the head of the Harvest but he also blows the Last Trump, thus he has now fulfilled 5 of the 7 Feasts right? Of course he has, and the Church at this point is seen in Rev. 4:4 in heaven in white robes, with crowns on, sitting at God's throne, worshiping Jesus and the Father, watching Jesus open the 7 Seals which bring God's Judgments or Wrath (DOTL) in the middle of the 70th week. But just before the 7th Seal is opened in Revelation 8 we have to see Israel repent in Rev. 7, JUST BEFORE Gods Wrath falls in Rev. 8. So, just after the Trumps end the Harvest Season (Church Ae Season) we see Israel must do what? ATONE !! Before the 70th week ends, and before the Wrath of God falls as Zech. 13:8-9 proves will happen, we see 1/3 of Israel repent then in the very next verse we see the DOTL arrives in Zech. 14:1 and in vs. 2 Jerusalem is sacked)

6.) Feast of Atonement (Now it is time for Israel to ATONE for their sins by finally as a Nation accepting Jesus as their Messiah. But ONLY AFTER the Harvest Season of the Summer Harvest (Church Age) comes to an end. Now we know Elijah [and Moses] is sent back JUST BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord or God Wrath falls, we can see this in Malachi 4:5-6. So, the Two-witnesses must show up before the DOTL which hits in the middle of the week on day 1260. So, they are the 1335 Blessing, they show up 1335 days before Jesus ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS/THINGS in Dan. 12:6-8 and on, which is 75 days before the 1260 DOTL which is 1260 days before the 2nd coming. So, Israel ATONES and Jesus' blood fulfills thus)

7.) Feast of Tabernacles ( So, to TABERNACLE in Hebrew simply means to DWELL WITH God. And thus Jesus will fulfill this also when he reigns from Jerusalem with Mankind & Israel fulfilling the promised coming Kingdom Age by Dwelling with Israel/mankind for 1000 years)

Now lets go look at Rev. 4:1 just after the 7 Churches of Rev. 2 and 3 which signifies the Divine and Complete Church Age. What happens? Jesus blows the LAST TRUP to call the Church to heaven where we will Marry the Lamb.

Rev. 4:1 After this(After the Church Age) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven:(Entrance Way) and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Only those who refuse to see the obvious can not understand this, the Church Age has ENDED because John said "after this" (Church Age) I saw an OPEN DOOR and eventually Jesus would say COME UP HERE but he did so in a REVERBERATING QUIVERING VOICE and John says it sounded like a Trumpet because it no doubt quivered as a trump but also because it represented, as he knew, the Last Trump which ended the Summer Harvest. Then LASTLY, Jesus tells John I will show you the THINGS WHICH ARE HEREAFTER, meaning after the Church Age as seen in Rev. 2 & 3.

Everything after Rev. 4:1 is the 70th week which now deals with Israel repenting as a Nation and Judgment of the Nations, which means Judgment also of the 2/3 Jews who do not repent.

OTHER KEY SCRIPTURES BELOW

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Now go read Rev. 2:10, Rev. 3:5 and Rev. 3:21, it shows all the PROMISES of those whom OVERCAME the Church Age on these 24 Elders which represents the complete church here, we know this by looking at the bible, in 1 Chronicles 24 we see the 24 Orders of the Priesthood, NOW LOOK BELOW what Jesus said.

Rev. 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev. 5:9 And they(Who is THEY brother) sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;(See it now?) 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Who are these people brother? No Jew goes to heaven save Elijah and Moses, they are raised at the very, very end. No Christian goes to heaven until the rapture, (I bet you think otherwise), we know this by reading 1 Cor. 15, all those Dead in Christ will be raised at the exact same time as the Rapture, it specifically say so. Thus when we are CHANGED all that means is we change from a Corrupt Flesh Body which cannot enter Heaven unto the Spirit Man which is how the Dead are Raised WITHOUT CORRUPTION or Sin Flesh as 1 Cor 15:44 says (GO READ), they are sown as flesh men but raised as SPIRIT MEN. Thus we must simply shed out flesh body before we go to Marry Jess where we will get our New Glorious Bodies or White Robes. So, who are they? They can only be the Pre Trib. Raptured Church.

The 7 Feasts prove this is God's plan.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Where is your rapture in Rev 4?
It's not there, of course. Of the MANY weak arguments that pre-tribs make, that might be at the top of the list. To equate John being taken to heaven or being given a vision of heaven with a pre-trib rapture is the biggest stretch of scripture imaginable. It's complete, utter nonsense.
 

WPM

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Now lets go look at Rev. 4:1 just after the 7 Churches of Rev. 2 and 3 which signifies the Divine and Complete Church Age. What happens? Jesus blows the LAST TRUP to call the Church to heaven where we will Marry the Lamb.

Rev. 4:1 After this(After the Church Age) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven:(Entrance Way) and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Only those who refuse to see the obvious can not understand this, the Church Age has ENDED because John said "after this" (Church Age) I saw an OPEN DOOR and eventually Jesus would say COME UP HERE but he did so in a REVERBERATING QUIVERING VOICE and John says it sounded like a Trumpet because it no doubt quivered as a trump but also because it represented, as he knew, the Last Trump which ended the Summer Harvest. Then LASTLY, Jesus tells John I will show you the THINGS WHICH ARE HEREAFTER, meaning after the Church Age as seen in Rev. 2 & 3.

Everything after Rev. 4:1 is the 70th week which now deals with Israel repenting as a Nation and Judgment of the Nations, which means Judgment also of the 2/3 Jews who do not repent.

OTHER KEY SCRIPTURES BELOW

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Now go read Rev. 2:10, Rev. 3:5 and Rev. 3:21, it shows all the PROMISES of those whom OVERCAME the Church Age on these 24 Elders which represents the complete church here, we know this by looking at the bible, in 1 Chronicles 24 we see the 24 Orders of the Priesthood, NOW LOOK BELOW what Jesus said.

Rev. 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev. 5:9 And they(Who is THEY brother) sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;(See it now?) 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Who are these people brother? No Jew goes to heaven save Elijah and Moses, they are raised at the very, very end. No Christian goes to heaven until the rapture, (I bet you think otherwise), we know this by reading 1 Cor. 15, all those Dead in Christ will be raised at the exact same time as the Rapture, it specifically say so. Thus when we are CHANGED all that means is we change from a Corrupt Flesh Body which cannot enter Heaven unto the Spirit Man which is how the Dead are Raised WITHOUT CORRUPTION or Sin Flesh as 1 Cor 15:44 says (GO READ), they are sown as flesh men but raised as SPIRIT MEN. Thus we must simply shed out flesh body before we go to Marry Jess where we will get our New Glorious Bodies or White Robes. So, who are they? They can only be the Pre Trib. Raptured Church.

The 7 Feasts prove this is God's plan.
This is all man-made theories. There is no substance to it. That is because you do not have Scripture to support Pretrib. There is no proof-text in Scripture - that is why you twist a text like Revelation 4.

Revelation 4:1-2 has absolutely nothing to do with a secret rapture. In fact, note what it actually says and how it compares to similarly worded passages in Revelation. Remember, the safest way to understand Scripture is to compare Scripture with Scripture.

Revelation 4:1-2 commences, “After this (speaking of his supernatural encounter with Christ on Patmos) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”

There is no allusion here of the Lord descending in the clouds from heaven, there is no mention of the Church, we don’t see the saints rising to meet Him, there is no mention of the dead in Christ being resurrected and those who are alive and remain being caught up, there is no meeting Jesus in the air. It is all an elaborate hoax formulated by men which enjoys no biblical basis for their doctrine.
 
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Big Boy Johnson

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You have your own brand of Premil. Where did Paul ever teach your brand of Premil (or any form of it, really)? I don't see anywhere where he taught that many of the dead who are resurrected will then live on the earth for a long time while being tested.

Christians who are returning in their glorified body (like Jesus has now) will laugh when any testing comes their way as they will be untouchable by death (like Jesus is now)

Christians will be reigning with Jesus on earth during His 1000 year reign in glorified bodies and no testing, temptation, or trials will be able to effect them to draw them away from the Lord.
 

WPM

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Christians who are returning in their glorified body (like Jesus has now) will laugh when any testing comes their way as they will be untouchable by death (like Jesus is now)

Christians will be reigning with Jesus on earth during His 1000 year reign in glorified bodies and no testing, temptation, or trials will be able to effect them to draw them away from the Lord.
Where exactly does it say that in Revelation 20? It sounds made up to me.