Higher Education...Good or Bad?

[Wormwood]

And from what I've seen, a lot of that comes from them being raised in an all-or-none, "if you change one bit you have to reject the whole thing" style of Christianity.

I'd say this is true sometimes. But statistically, those from mainline denominations (which tend to be more "progressive" in their views) are more rapidly leaving the faith than those from evangelically-based backgrounds. I don't know we can blame parents for being to "strict" for kids leaving the faith. I think statistics show the opposite is more likely.

 

[River Jordan]

Interesting...do you have the data you're referring to? I'd really like to see that.

 

[aspen]

Ah...I see you have released the attack dogs...let the reframing and uneducated assumptions abound!

don't expect you to find anything disagreeable about college because the professors are left wing like you.

Of course you are assuming that all professors belong to the club you call 'left wing'. No matter that I attended a Christian university for my undergraduate degree and a Catholic university for graduate school. Some of the requirements for professors interested in teaching at my undergraduate university include a personal, written testimony and multiple interviews by the conservative religion department before they are even eligible for hire. You can check out the requirements for hire at Whitworth University - you live close by.

Thinking that Christians who don't want to be indoctrinated in leftist ideology are "anti-intellectual" (your words) is at worst intellectually dishonest, ignorant at best.

I am hope this is just your example of intellectual dishonesty and not a serious statement. Yes, you used my word 'anti-intellectual' and you paired it with your uneducated, generalized statement 'indoctrinated in leftist ideology' and tried to claim that I was saying that Christians who disagree with the information they learn in college are anti-intellectual. Talk about a perfect example of intellectual dishonesty - thank you for that!

And I also don't believe that in this Berean Baptist church that much (or any) of the congregation believed the minister to be divine or that you were kicked out because you refused to go to college.

Indeed. It goes along with your apparent emotional comfort with making judgments in ignorance about other people's experience - without regard to insight. People usually refer to this as 'talking out of your donkey'.

I do believe that in one single post you thrice proved that you can hold perceptions at sharp variance with reality. Bereans were applauded in scripture because they didn't trust what they were being told and sought out the scriptures themselves to see if the things they were told were so. Those who emulate the Bereans hardly think that their minister is divine. I do believe you were shunned, but I also believe you superimposed a reason that shifted the blame to them.

OH, NOW I GET IT! You are mistaking the members of the independent church I attended in Davis CA, 20 years ago with the actual Bereans in the NT.......well, let me help you, those Bereans died around two thousand years ago. This church decided to simply use their name. They believed they were following the scriptures, just like JWs and the followers of David Karesh. I attended, and was counseled into being re-baptised and into joining the church. I am probably still a member, for all I know. I said I was shunned, not kicked out. Since the shunning happened directly after I decided to attend college and has continued - it seems logical to assume that I am being shunned for not following the directive from the minister to not attend college. This still seems a lot more plausible than your uneducated opinion so I think I am going to stick with it. Also, you have no idea if members of the congregation believed the minister's words are divine or not so stop embarrassing yourself.

This goes back to an earlier discussion we had. You have perceptions of Protestant Evangelicals that just aren't true and those perceptions hold sway against the truth, as is common with liberals who don't want to face reality. And unfortunately, as a Catholic, you force me to come to their defense time and time again because I won't allow them to be slandered any more than Catholics. So please stop with the distortions. It's embarrassing.

Hmmm...that reminds me; how many Protestant Churches have you been a member of? None? Exactly. Conversely, I have been a member of five; attended a Pentecostal High School; graduated from a Protestant University; on staff at a Protestant Church; have been involved in many Protestant-based ministries and still attend a weekly Prostestant Bible Study. I have spent 30 years as a Protestant Christian and I still feel comfortable worshipping with my Protestant brothers and sisters. So, you can stop being embarrassed for me; I enjoy being around many kinds of Christian people - your defense is not asked for or required. I suggest that you instead consider facing reality yourself.......turn off FoxNews and think before you shoot your mouth off about experiences you know nothing about.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

What university have you spent time at?

Somewhere in the Northwest U.S. where I live. I don't trust you with anything more specific than that.

 

[Madad21]

I don't trust fabric softener.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Madad, I love your heart so much I'm offering you a bacon mug filled with cheddar cheese on this National Bacon Day!

 

[Madad21]

OH NICE!!!!!

YOU DA BEST!!

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Of course you are assuming that all professors belong to the club you call 'left wing'. No matter that I attended a Christian university for my undergraduate degree and a Catholic university for graduate school. Some of the requirements for professors interested in teaching at my undergraduate university include a personal, written testimony and multiple interviews by the conservative religion department before they are even eligible for hire. You can check out the requirements for hire at Whitworth University - you live close by.

Right. I'm sure you really thought we were talking about Christian universities as to, let's say, UC Berkley or University of Colorad

I am hope this is just your example of intellectual dishonesty and not a serious statement. Yes, you used my word 'anti-intellectual' and you paired it with your uneducated, generalized statement 'indoctrinated in leftist ideology' and tried to claim that I was saying that Christians who disagree with the information they learn in college are anti-intellectual. Talk about a perfect example of intellectual dishonesty - thank you for that!


You said it, not me. Own it.



OH, NOW I GET IT! You are mistaking the members of the independent church I attended in Davis CA, 20 years ago with the actual Bereans in the NT.......well, let me help you, those Bereans died around two thousand years ago. This church decided to simply use their name. They believed they were following the scriptures, just like JWs and the followers of David Karesh. I attended, and was counseled into being re-baptised and into joining the church. I am probably still a member, for all I know. I said I was shunned, not kicked out. Since the shunning happened directly after I decided to attend college and has continued - it seems logical to assume that I am being shunned for not following the directive from the minister to not attend college. This still seems a lot more plausible than your uneducated opinion so I think I am going to stick with it. Also, you have no idea if members of the congregation believed the minister's words are divine or not so stop embarrassing yourself.

I'm not the least bit embarrassed. You're misrepresenting Protestants on a Protestant forum, which means everyone including me knows your making it up. Or I could be a little more graceful in suggesting that you think statements like "He has God's anointing" and "He's a godly pastor" actually mean they think he's divine. I wouldn't put such delusional thinking past you. I happen to know Protestants well enough, 20 years ago or today, to know the scenario you propose is highly unlikely broaching upon being a near certain distortion.



Hmmm...that reminds me; how many Protestant Churches have you been a member of? None? Exactly. Conversely, I have been a member of five; attended a Pentecostal High School; graduated from a Protestant University; on staff at a Protestant Church; have been involved in many Protestant-based ministries and still attend a weekly Prostestant Bible Study. I have spent 30 years as a Protestant Christian and I still feel comfortable worshipping with my Protestant brothers and sisters. So, you can stop being embarrassed for me; I enjoy being around many kinds of Christian people - your defense is not asked for or required. I suggest that you instead consider facing reality yourself.......turn off FoxNews and think before you shoot your mouth off about experiences you know nothing about.

I love how you on the Left obsess about Foxnews. And you would not only be wrong in your assumption, but stupidly so, for what you've seen on this forum should indicate otherwise. I've been going to Protestant services since I was a very little boy and I'm certain that I've still heard more Protestant sermons than I have Catholic homilies. Moreover, I've been to youth camps like YWAM, attended multiple Bible studies, and been involved personally in several ministries. Though I've also had Catholic influences growing up, I didn't convert until I married my Catholic wife. My Protestant creds actually exceed my Catholic creds. The stupid part is, everyone on this forum probably knows this except you. I've demonstrated a greater familiarity of Scripture than you, a greater understanding of Evangelical culture and I speak the language like you couldn't even dream of. Your account and my account of Protestant experience sounds alike, the only difference is, my posts actually prove I'm telling the truth, whereas your posts indicate either you're being dishonest, or in all the time you spent among Protestants, you learned nothing from them. If you didn't continually misrepresent their beliefs and sentiments, I would have no cause to accuse you, but you do and I do.

BTW, love to see you bucking like a mule at me. Hope to see more of that..

 

[Wormwood]

Interesting...do you have the data you're referring to? I'd really like to see that.

Sure, Its based in research done by Thom Rainer. The book is at my office. I recall reading some other info by Barna on the issue as well. I'll try to find the exact references on Tuesday when I am in my office.

 

[aspen]

You are making this so easy, Vale.

"Right. i am sure you really thought we were taking about Christian universities as to, lets say, Berkeley or Colorado".

No. i was responding to your statement, "i dont expect you to find anything diagreeable about college because the professors are left wing like you" and angelina's comment "I know of a number of Christian Universites that do not have just Christian professors"

"You said it not me. Own it"

Did you miss the part of my response where i said i used the word "anti-intellectual"? i own the fact and stick by my statement that "one frustrating element of A MINORITY OF CHRISTIAN CULTURE is the anti-intellectual aspect". I will not "own" your attempt to reframe the word i used to include all Protestants and all Protestant views regarding high education. Sorry.

i am not even going to quote your next statement it is so convuluted and absurd - i was speaking about my personal experience with one Prostant church; not all Protestants; not most Protestants; not even Protestants outside the Berean church i was a member of. instead of distracting from what i am really saying in a vain attempt to discredit me, why not just be honest: you used general words to try to reframe what i said, in order to put me in your Protestant maligning liberal box. there! i accept your apology!

Next......

You have been attending Protestant services.......lol, ok

you claim to know the Bible better than me.......haha, ok

i guess you win.....your the bigger, smarter Protestant

of course every blustering word you said only distracts from the fact i pointed out - you have never actually belonged to a nonCatholic church...........lol

Keep on tilting.........

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Aspen, what in the world makes you think I've never "belonged" to a non-Catholic church? How does one attend a non Catholic church regularly without belonging to it. My own father happens to be a pastor at a Pentecostal church, one that I've attended many times and been a "member" of, even after I became Catholic. Why would you make such a stupid assumption knowing nothing about me? I'm beginning to get a better picture of why the Berean congregation "shunned" you and I still believe it had nothing to do with you going to college. Are you telling me that none of the members were college educated, that the pastor didn't possess a valid license that can only be obtained through higher education? Your story is full of holes, brother, and no I didn't proffer any apology for you to accept, but thanks for proving anew your aptitude for creating your own reality. It just confirms what I have already concluded.

 

[aspen]

Aspen, what in the world makes you think I've never "belonged" to a non-Catholic church? How does one attend a non Catholic church regularly without belonging to it. My own father happens to be a pastor at a Pentecostal church, one that I've attended many times and been a "member" of, even after I became Catholic. Why would you make such a stupid assumption knowing nothing about me? I'm beginning to get a better picture of why the Berean congregation "shunned" you and I still believe it had nothing to do with you going to college. Are you telling me that none of the members were college educated, that the pastor didn't possess a valid license that can only be obtained through higher education? Your story is full of holes, brother, and no I didn't proffer any apology for you to accept, but thanks for proving anew your aptitude for creating your own reality. It just confirms what I have already concluded.

All I said was that you have never been a formal member of a noncatholic church and you have not bothered to correct me until now - and even now you are trying to weasel your way out of it by claiming that attending a few services makes you a formal member - give it up. It is ok to be wrong.

When did I say a word about members of the church I was a formal member of, not being college educated? I was shunned because I did not follow the directive of the pastor to forego going to college. I have no idea if he was educated either. Who knows? He may have been licensed to be a pastor or he could have started his own church without credentials of any kind.

Stop trying to make my words fit your warped ideas about liberals and Protestants and college. One of the criticisms I have heard (again MY EXPERIENCE) in Catholic circles (NOT FROM EVERY CATHOLIC I HAVE EVER MET) is that some Protestants who are critical of Catholic teachings (NOT EVERY PROTESTANT OR EVEN, EVERY PROTESTANT WHO IS CRITICAL OF CATHOLIC TEACHINGS) are actually in disagreement with their own understanding of catholic teachings, rather than what the Catholic Church actually teaches. You are making the same mistake with me. You are continually distorting my words (NOT EVERY WORD THAT I HAVE WRITTEN, BUT SOME OF MY WORDS) to reflect your own ideas. Basically, you are arguing with yourself.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Well, Aspen, I put your claims up for examination by other members here. Please refer to my new thread which is all about what you have publicly claimed and continue to maintain is true.

But now I want to know, shall I add a further claim that Berean Baptist churches accept pastors that don't have credentials?

 

[aspen]

But now I want to know, shall I add a further claim that Berean Baptist churches accept pastors that don't have credentials?

Only if you want to continue your fantasy and quest to promote disinformation about me making claims about denominations rather than making statements about one independent church. Also, any careful reader without an agenda will note that I never used the word "baptist" in the title of the church I was speaking about.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Only if you want to continue your fantasy and quest to promote disinformation about me making claims about denominations rather than making statements about one independent church. Also, any careful reader without an agenda will note that I never used the word "baptist" in the title of the church I was speaking about.

Oops! You did. More candor sequestration. I posted your exact quote on my thread.

 

[aspen]

Yes I corrected the title on the other thread

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

I overstepped by calling it candor sequestration. Let's downplay that to honest mistake.

 

[River Jordan]

Somewhere in the Northwest U.S. where I live. I don't trust you with anything more specific than that.

And what was daily life there like for a student?

_______________________________________

Wormwood,

Looking forward to it. Thanks in advance!

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

And what was daily life there like for a student?

_______________________________________

Wormwood,

Looking forward to it. Thanks in advance!

What aspect? Classes? The teachers? The homework? The quad? They gym, the library, the office of admissions, the cafeteria or the bookstore? What game are you playing here?

 

[River Jordan]

TVoT,

I originally asked what you think daily university life for students is like after you posted, "I don't expect you to find anything disagreeable about college because the professors are left wing like you. Thinking that Christians who don't want to be indoctrinated in leftist ideology are "anti-intellectual" (your words) is at worst intellectually dishonest, ignorant at best."