Higher Education...Good or Bad?

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River Jordan

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Since I first started posting in forums like this and/or interacting personally with Christians who are more conservative, I've noticed a bit of a pattern in the discussions when it comes to higher education. Many of these folks seem to have a view where the college experience, especially when it comes to science, is little more than students filing into a classroom, a professor basically reading from a script that he/she was taught as a student, telling the students what they must think, say, or do, and the students merely memorizing this script (some of whom go on to repeat it again when they become professors). IOW, the conservative Christian vision of college is more like an Orwellian brainwashing camp.

Even more, I see articles, speeches, and sermons from conservative Christian leaders warning their followers not to send their kids off to college. The fear is the kids will be exposed to the wrong sorts of ideas and influences, will be tempted to sin, and may even eventually leave the faith. It's far safer to home school and send them to a conservative Christian university. Or in extreme cases some conservative Christians recommend not sending females to any secondary schooling at all! The thought there is that she won't learn anything necessary for being a good wife, homemaker, or mother.

But overall I see an unmistakable tendency for conservative Christians to be very wary and suspicious of college, and that's something I've been thinking about for a while now. In my youth ministry, I occasionally meet kids who are about to graduate high school, want to go to a regular college, but their parents are forcing them (usually through financing) to go to a Christian college. (Now to be clear, I don't really have much experience with Christian colleges and I'm not intending to comment on them at all.) What saddens me is when I see a kid who is very excited about the prospect of learning at a large and/or prestigious university and experiencing something new and exciting, only to have that squashed by parents who are operating out of fear. And given some of the misleading depictions of what college is actually like (e.g., the movie God is Not Dead) that circulate in conservative circles, that makes it even more saddening to me.

I also wonder about the idea that college will turn their kids away from Christianity. In my experience, this fear is legitimate although misplaced.

From what I've seen, it's not the universities that are the cause of so many kids leaving the faith, but the specific sort of faith these kids are taught at home and in the church. They're taught by their parents, pastors, and leaders that certain beliefs are absolutely integral to Christianity and if you question even one of them, the whole faith crumbles. The kids adopt this mindset and set off to college where they find out that some of the things they've been taught by their church leaders aren't exactly 100% correct, and through the "you have to believe all of it or you believe none of it" mindset, they start down the path of questioning Christianity as a whole. And I do agree, it's at that point where the friends one hangs out with can be very influential. If the kid is hanging around non-Christians or anti-Christians who know their talking points, those people can be very persuasive. But it wouldn't even get to that point without the starting "all or none" mindset in the first place.

Anyways, I'm kind of rambling here, but what are your thoughts on higher education and Christianity? I went to a wonderful public university and got an excellent education that was about the exact opposite of the brainwashing camp described in the first paragraph. We spent a lot of time in the field, seeing first-hand the things we were studying; we did a lot of lab experiments to see for ourselves the processes our professors were talking about; we attended lots of conferences where we met scientists from many different fields and backgrounds and got to talk to them about their work (and sometimes see it). In sum, we weren't told to just learn something via rote memory without questioning. In fact, one of my most influential professors told us that we had to "learn to think like scientists" and by that he meant to not accept something just because someone says so. Look at everything critically, and if something doesn't make sense or doesn't seem to add up, check into it yourself and see what you find. He described a good scientist as a "curious skeptic".

So that's my experience. Not only did I not lose my faith, I came out with a stronger belief and appreciation for our Lord and His Creation. What I wonder is...why can't it be like that for more Christians?
 

Suhar

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Jesus did not go into the universities of the day to find followers. He picked working men for his disciples.

I have not been around this site for a while but I remember your posts. You come across as an obnoxious know-it-all, with gigantic case of hubris talking down to everybody. Was it your HIGH education that made you this way?

I am sure you will not fail my expectations and make my case for me with replies that will follow.

By the way, in all my years I never once heard any pastor preaching against education. Maybe you are listening to Amish and alike preachers too much. I heard warnings to young people about liberal/humanist/leftist/evolution based nature of contemporary institutions of higher learning but never against education itself.
 
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Angelina

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I know a number of Christian universities who do not just have Christians as professors. Some are hired because they are the best in their field. It really depends on the field of study you are taking. A friend of mine went to a Christian University to get her teaching degree. In NZ, we are able to do that by taking out a student loan. Most students are not supported by their families when it comes to higher education and they can incur a hefty loan repayment. My friend who has finished her nursing degree in a prestigious secular University is still paying her loan off. I am also still paying off a student loan ;)
 

KingJ

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Angelina said:
I know a number of Christian universities who do not just have Christians as professors. Some are hired because they are the best in their field. It really depends on the field of study you are taking. A friend of mine went to a Christian University to get her teaching degree. In NZ, we are able to do that by taking out a student loan. Most students are not supported by their families when it comes to higher education and they can incur a hefty loan repayment. My friend who has finished her nursing degree in a prestigious secular University is still paying her loan off. I am also still paying off a student loan ;)
What did you study?

I worked while I studied. Fortunately accounting degrees are not as costly as medical degrees :).

River Jordan said:
1. Anyways, I'm kind of rambling here, but what are your thoughts on higher education and Christianity? 2. I went to a wonderful public university and got an excellent education that was about the exact opposite of the brainwashing camp described in the first paragraph.

3. So that's my experience. Not only did I not lose my faith, I came out with a stronger belief and appreciation for our Lord and His Creation. What I wonder is...why can't it be like that for more Christians?
1. Parable of the talents = Christianity 101 / Sunday school teaching
2. Perhaps if you were more objective in your posts many would believe this wonderful, excellent, opposite of brainwashing education you received as a young girl just out of school was not brainwashing for you.
3. You have no faith in scripture and have not lost your faith? You run down the whole OT, Paul (3/4 of the NT) for sexism and Revelations for John dreaming / lying / smoking pot. Everyone believes Jesus loves them / wants to feel like they are special. That is not Christian faith.

I believe you are brainwashed River. Take for example the discussion we had on slavery. You raised the popular atheist type accusations. You isolated a verse that says ''owners who beat their slaves must not be punished'' ...I showed you the context, 'punished' = death. I gave a verse dealing with beating that said slaves are free if they lose a tooth or can run away at anytime. You did not apologize or accept correction. What is a sane person supposed to assume? Biased = biased = either brainwashed or dishonest.
 

Wormwood

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Higher education is a mixed bag, both at Christian colleges and secular universities. It is wise for parents to be concerned about their children and their education. No parent should mindlessly ship their child to any educational institution without a good deal of consideration both about their child and the institution. I also think it is wise for a parent to be skeptical of secular institutions. This is not only because of the education taking place, but also because of the social atmosphere. I have attended both Christian colleges and secular universities. I also currently teach as an adjunct at a secular university. There are some good things, but there are plenty of real issues that need to be weighed. Many of my students are simply unprepared for the unstructured, and often party oriented environment of a secular institution. When you add to this the very real issue of some professors who seem to make it their prerogative to create doubt in students minds about their Christian upbringing, it can be a real problem. In the city I live, a biology professor at the university where I teach often writes articles in the opinion columns of the local paper that ridicules Christians and mocks their faith. Many eighteen year old kids simply do not have the maturity or experience to handle the many challenges that a secular university can pose.

On the other hand, Christian colleges are not always a sure answer either. The reality is that if a student is set on partying and so forth, they can do it at whatever college they attend. While many Christian colleges may be more strict when it comes to rules and curfews, some feel rules were made to be broken. Thus, the structured environment will only help to a degree. The benefit of a Christian college is that it can help form a foundation for young adults as they begin to reflect on life, purpose, morality and truth. They can begin to explore different worldviews in a constructive environment rather than one where the professor is deriding the young adults faith as superstition, etc.

So, my recommendation would be that all Christian parents encourage their kids to attend a Christian college for at least a year before heading to a secular institution. Statistics show that 75% of college students who attend secular institutions do not graduate with their faith. It is a very real danger. Not all of the danger comes from professors, but certainly there are some who seem to delight in challenging and undermining faith-based assumptions. Unless a child has really been prepared well in the home by proactive parents who really invested in their child's Christian upbringing, a Christian college for at least a year or two is a good idea. Ultimately it comes down to the young adult and the parent's understanding of their spiritual and social maturity. Just my thoughts.
 
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This Vale Of Tears

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Suhar said:
Jesus did not go into the universities of the day to find followers. He picked working men for his disciples.

I have not been around this site for a while but I remember your posts. You come across as an obnoxious know-it-all, with gigantic case of hubris talking down to everybody. Was it your HIGH education that made you this way?

I am sure you will not fail my expectations and make my case for me with replies that will follow.

By the way, in all my years I never once heard any pastor preaching against education. Maybe you are listening to Amish and alike preachers too much. I heard warnings to young people about liberal/humanist/leftist/evolution based nature of contemporary institutions of higher learning but never against education itself.
Really? You're telling RJ he's an "obnoxious know-it-all with gigantic case of hubris talking down to everybody"?

Let me ask you, is that not the disposition you possessed when you said, "Do you miss your dead Christian friends or relatives? How selfish of you!"

I'll never forget you said that. I don't think RJ has every done anything on this forum on the caliber of telling the grieving bereaved to stop being so selfish.
River Jordan said:
Since I first started posting in forums like this and/or interacting personally with Christians who are more conservative, I've noticed a bit of a pattern in the discussions when it comes to higher education. Many of these folks seem to have a view where the college experience, especially when it comes to science, is little more than students filing into a classroom, a professor basically reading from a script that he/she was taught as a student, telling the students what they must think, say, or do, and the students merely memorizing this script (some of whom go on to repeat it again when they become professors). IOW, the conservative Christian vision of college is more like an Orwellian brainwashing camp.

Even more, I see articles, speeches, and sermons from conservative Christian leaders warning their followers not to send their kids off to college. The fear is the kids will be exposed to the wrong sorts of ideas and influences, will be tempted to sin, and may even eventually leave the faith. It's far safer to home school and send them to a conservative Christian university. Or in extreme cases some conservative Christians recommend not sending females to any secondary schooling at all! The thought there is that she won't learn anything necessary for being a good wife, homemaker, or mother.

But overall I see an unmistakable tendency for conservative Christians to be very wary and suspicious of college, and that's something I've been thinking about for a while now. In my youth ministry, I occasionally meet kids who are about to graduate high school, want to go to a regular college, but their parents are forcing them (usually through financing) to go to a Christian college. (Now to be clear, I don't really have much experience with Christian colleges and I'm not intending to comment on them at all.) What saddens me is when I see a kid who is very excited about the prospect of learning at a large and/or prestigious university and experiencing something new and exciting, only to have that squashed by parents who are operating out of fear. And given some of the misleading depictions of what college is actually like (e.g., the movie God is Not Dead) that circulate in conservative circles, that makes it even more saddening to me.

I also wonder about the idea that college will turn their kids away from Christianity. In my experience, this fear is legitimate although misplaced.

From what I've seen, it's not the universities that are the cause of so many kids leaving the faith, but the specific sort of faith these kids are taught at home and in the church. They're taught by their parents, pastors, and leaders that certain beliefs are absolutely integral to Christianity and if you question even one of them, the whole faith crumbles. The kids adopt this mindset and set off to college where they find out that some of the things they've been taught by their church leaders aren't exactly 100% correct, and through the "you have to believe all of it or you believe none of it" mindset, they start down the path of questioning Christianity as a whole. And I do agree, it's at that point where the friends one hangs out with can be very influential. If the kid is hanging around non-Christians or anti-Christians who know their talking points, those people can be very persuasive. But it wouldn't even get to that point without the starting "all or none" mindset in the first place.

Anyways, I'm kind of rambling here, but what are your thoughts on higher education and Christianity? I went to a wonderful public university and got an excellent education that was about the exact opposite of the brainwashing camp described in the first paragraph. We spent a lot of time in the field, seeing first-hand the things we were studying; we did a lot of lab experiments to see for ourselves the processes our professors were talking about; we attended lots of conferences where we met scientists from many different fields and backgrounds and got to talk to them about their work (and sometimes see it). In sum, we weren't told to just learn something via rote memory without questioning. In fact, one of my most influential professors told us that we had to "learn to think like scientists" and by that he meant to not accept something just because someone says so. Look at everything critically, and if something doesn't make sense or doesn't seem to add up, check into it yourself and see what you find. He described a good scientist as a "curious skeptic".

So that's my experience. Not only did I not lose my faith, I came out with a stronger belief and appreciation for our Lord and His Creation. What I wonder is...why can't it be like that for more Christians?
RJ,

This goes to a much larger trend that I criticize, this idea that Christians should cede territory to Satan, not knowing that in Christ we've been given "all things". Satan owns no territory, not music, not dancing, not movies, not Christmas, and certainly not colleges and universities. Like the Israelites of old, we are encouraged to "possess the land" that has already been conquered for us. I think it grieves God to see us hunkering down in our well defended little forts assuming that the devil controls everything else. It's all ours. ALL OF IT!!

And as soon as that sinks into our heads, imagine what is possible for us for whom nothing is impossible.
 
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Suhar

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This Vale Of Tears said:
Really? You're telling RJ he's an "obnoxious know-it-all with gigantic case of hubris talking down to everybody"?

Let me ask you, is that not the disposition you possessed when you said, "Do you miss your dead Christian friends or relatives? How selfish of you!"

I'll never forget you said that. I don't think RJ has every done anything on this forum on the caliber of telling the grieving bereaved to stop being so selfish.
Last I heard you called yourself "real academic" and told me that somebody with low intelligence like mine should not even interact with intellectual giants like you. Why do you make yourself look bad by talking to somebody with such low intelligence and on the topic totally unrelated to the one we are on now? Last I heard it is called trolling and you are doing just that!
 

This Vale Of Tears

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Suhar, you opened that door with your hypocrisy. I'm not looking for opportunities to keep bringing up your past comments, but when you criticize RJ for the exact same thing, something must be said. BTW, the second paragraph in your response to RJ was completely unnecessary and "unrelated" to what we're discussing on this thread. More hypocrisy.
 

River Jordan

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Angelina said:
I know a number of Christian universities who do not just have Christians as professors. Some are hired because they are the best in their field. It really depends on the field of study you are taking. A friend of mine went to a Christian University to get her teaching degree. In NZ, we are able to do that by taking out a student loan. Most students are not supported by their families when it comes to higher education and they can incur a hefty loan repayment. My friend who has finished her nursing degree in a prestigious secular University is still paying her loan off. I am also still paying off a student loan ;)
Oh sure. Like I said, I'm not trying to comment on the quality of Christian universities.
Wormwood said:
Higher education is a mixed bag, both at Christian colleges and secular universities. It is wise for parents to be concerned about their children and their education. No parent should mindlessly ship their child to any educational institution without a good deal of consideration both about their child and the institution.
I definitely agree. I see too many kids sent off to college with little to no preparation for what they're about to encounter.

In the city I live, a biology professor at the university where I teach often writes articles in the opinion columns of the local paper that ridicules Christians and mocks their faith. Many eighteen year old kids simply do not have the maturity or experience to handle the many challenges that a secular university can pose.
What does he write about?

Statistics show that 75% of college students who attend secular institutions do not graduate with their faith. It is a very real danger. Not all of the danger comes from professors, but certainly there are some who seem to delight in challenging and undermining faith-based assumptions.
And from what I've seen, a lot of that comes from them being raised in an all-or-none, "if you change one bit you have to reject the whole thing" style of Christianity.

This Vale Of Tears said:
This goes to a much larger trend that I criticize, this idea that Christians should cede territory to Satan, not knowing that in Christ we've been given "all things". Satan owns no territory, not music, not dancing, not movies, not Christmas, and certainly not colleges and universities. Like the Israelites of old, we are encouraged to "possess the land" that has already been conquered for us. I think it grieves God to see us hunkering down in our well defended little forts assuming that the devil controls everything else. It's all ours. ALL OF IT!!

And as soon as that sinks into our heads, imagine what is possible for us for whom nothing is impossible.
That's another angle I see a lot and tend to agree with. I think the more Christians there are in universities, the more Christ-like the universities will be.
 

aspen

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Higher education has been one of the best things in my life. Is it worth the money today? Unfortunately, no. Is it evil? Not at all. One of the most frustrating thing about a minority of Christian culture is the anti-intellectual aspect. It really is a lack of faith, but they do not realize it. The idea is, the more you know, the more likely you will lose your faith - it is a complete lie, but that is the message I have heard for years. I was actually shunned from a Berean Baptist church, I was a member in, because I went against the minister's "suggestion" that I renounce my intentions to go to college. Thankfully, I was able to make the decision to go, easily - later, I discovered that much of the congregation believed the minister was divine.
 

This Vale Of Tears

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aspen said:
Higher education has been one of the best things in my life. Is it worth the money today? Unfortunately, no. Is it evil? Not at all. One of the most frustrating thing about a minority of Christian culture is the anti-intellectual aspect. It really is a lack of faith, but they do not realize it. The idea is, the more you know, the more likely you will lose your faith - it is a complete lie, but that is the message I have heard for years. I was actually shunned from a Berean Baptist church, I was a member in, because I went against the minister's "suggestion" that I renounce my intentions to go to college. Thankfully, I was able to make the decision to go, easily - later, I discovered that much of the congregation believed the minister was divine.
I don't expect you to find anything disagreeable about college because the professors are left wing like you. Thinking that Christians who don't want to be indoctrinated in leftist ideology are "anti-intellectual" (your words) is at worst intellectually dishonest, ignorant at best.

And I also don't believe that in this Berean Baptist church that much (or any) of the congregation believed the minister to be divine or that you were kicked out because you refused to go to college. I do believe that in one single post you thrice proved that you can hold perceptions at sharp variance with reality. Bereans were applauded in scripture because they didn't trust what they were being told and sought out the scriptures themselves to see if the things they were told were so. Those who emulate the Bereans hardly think that their minister is divine. I do believe you were shunned, but I also believe you superimposed a reason that shifted the blame to them.

This goes back to an earlier discussion we had. You have perceptions of Protestant Evangelicals that just aren't true and those perceptions hold sway against the truth, as is common with liberals who don't want to face reality. And unfortunately, as a Catholic, you force me to come to their defense time and time again because I won't allow them to be slandered any more than Catholics. So please stop with the distortions. It's embarrassing.
 

River Jordan

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This Vale Of Tears said:
I don't expect you to find anything disagreeable about college because the professors are left wing like you. Thinking that Christians who don't want to be indoctrinated in leftist ideology are "anti-intellectual" (your words) is at worst intellectually dishonest, ignorant at best.
That really makes me wonder what you think a typical day in a typical college is like.
 

HammerStone

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http://mereorthodoxy.com/disrespectable-christianity/

I think the above article hits an important point about desiring a respectable Christianity and is quite incisive on this issue.

I know there are a number of stereotypes and vaguely support assertions dwelling on both sides of this particular issue of academia and Christians, but soul-searching on this issue will yield some fruit. It's easy to paint Christianity as anti-intellectual or anti-science, but honestly I know a swath of Christians in the area and very, very few of them harbor the home-schooler and Bible college mentality that you seem to suggest a larger portion of the population harbors.

Yes, very many are rightfully suspicious of the college classroom in the sense that yes, I can name two courses I experienced where a Professor (one of Comp Sci and another of Poli Sci) went off more than once on not even tangential rants about the occupier of the White House at that time. I can also name numerous other professors who were quite set in their ways and did very much lecture and expect students to more or less regurgitate language. Then again, I can also name some great professors who while we may disagree on a number of issues, we came away with great mutual respect and learning from one another.

With that said, I see as many stereotypes in your OP as I see on the other side about college professors. At the crux of it, you're still asking the question of "why can't everyone else's faith look like mine?"
 

River Jordan

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HammerStone said:
http://mereorthodoxy.com/disrespectable-christianity/

I think the above article hits an important point about desiring a respectable Christianity and is quite incisive on this issue.
And interestingly, it depicts the same sort of "stereotypes" you speak of.

So what do you think? Do you also desire respectability from the secular world?

It's easy to paint Christianity as anti-intellectual or anti-science
Why is it so easy to do that?

but honestly I know a swath of Christians in the area and very, very few of them harbor the home-schooler and Bible college mentality that you seem to suggest a larger portion of the population harbors.
Most of the Christians I know also aren't like that. Also, I didn't say anything about "a larger portion of the population".

Yes, very many are rightfully suspicious of the college classroom in the sense that yes, I can name two courses I experienced where a Professor (one of Comp Sci and another of Poli Sci) went off more than once on not even tangential rants about the occupier of the White House at that time. I can also name numerous other professors who were quite set in their ways and did very much lecture and expect students to more or less regurgitate language. Then again, I can also name some great professors who while we may disagree on a number of issues, we came away with great mutual respect and learning from one another.
Agreed...college is oftentimes a very diverse experience.

With that said, I see as many stereotypes in your OP as I see on the other side about college professors.
You mean like the "King James only crowd" in the article you linked to?

At the crux of it, you're still asking the question of "why can't everyone else's faith look like mine?"
In a way, isn't that what most everyone here is doing? Every debate and argument here is one side trying to persuade another over to their way of thinking and believing.

But overall, I agree with your point about how when you go to a college, you're likely to get a mix of good, average, and poor professors. And you will likely get some that will directly challenge something you believe in or hold dear. So maybe the larger question is....is that a problem? Should Christians only experience things that agree with or reinforce our faith?

This Vale Of Tears said:
It depends on the college, doesn't it?
Ok, let's pick The Ohio State University. What do you think a typical day there is like for a student?
 

This Vale Of Tears

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River Jordan said:
Ok, let's pick The Ohio State University. What do you think a typical day there is like for a student?
Don't know. Never been there. And since when is the discussion turned to class schedules, cafeteria cuisine, and frat houses?

Did you have something specific in mind pertaining to your OP?
Or is this just an extension of your evolution thread??
happy-026.gif
 

This Vale Of Tears

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River Jordan said:
Keep that in mind the next time you feel the urge to go on another rant about what goes on in a university.
I'm beginning to think I've been too hard on Suhar, he's definitely right about your presumptiveness. I said I never went to THAT university.
 

Madad21

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Angelina said:
I know a number of Christian universities who do not just have Christians as professors. Some are hired because they are the best in their field. It really depends on the field of study you are taking. A friend of mine went to a Christian University to get her teaching degree. In NZ, we are able to do that by taking out a student loan. Most students are not supported by their families when it comes to higher education and they can incur a hefty loan repayment. My friend who has finished her nursing degree in a prestigious secular University is still paying her loan off. I am also still paying off a student loan ;)
I study with Harvest Bible College and work full time nights, but my study is online so i take my time to absorb the info its just the assessments that have to be in on time, I get VET fee help. I dont have to pay a cent the govt does.

(because Im an Australian citizen, not by birth because my folks are Aussies,.... I was born in NZ, so get off my case alright,.....you know what.....I dont want to talk about it anymore.)