in 1988 it was carbon dated by 3 different major laboratories at the request of the then archbishop of Turin, Anastasio Ballestrero, and it was dated to the middle ages
sure, it very likely was the burial cloth of someone....but certainly not Jesus.
Historical Evidence For Christ
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in 1988 it was carbon dated by 3 different major laboratories at the request of the then archbishop of Turin, Anastasio Ballestrero, and it was dated to the middle ages
sure, it very likely was the burial cloth of someone....but certainly not Jesus.
no problem. Here are some more.
The Second-century Roman historian Suetonius mentions that the Roman emperor Claudius had ordered all the Jews to depart from Rome. In his work The Deified Claudius, the historian says: “Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (Christ), he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome.”
At Acts 18:2 the Bible writer refers to this dispersal:
"And he found a certain Jew named Aq′ui‧la, a native of Pon′tus who had recently come from Italy, and Pris‧cil′la his wife, because of the fact that Claudius had ordered all the Jews to depart from Rome..."
So here we have a roman historian verifying a NT writers account....more evidence that the gospels are based on fact and not myth.
Also, in Justin Martyr's writings he wrote about the miracles performed by Jesus and confidently challenged his readers to verify the truth of what he said by referring to 'The Acts of Pontius Pilate' Whatever those writings were, they no longer exist...or are yet to be found....but it shows that they existed in Justin's day and were readily available for people to examine.
Another historian was Pliny the Younger, the governor of Bithynia, who in 111 C.E. wrote to Emperor Trajan, asking how to handle Christians. He wrote that people who were falsely accused of being Christians would repeat an invocation to the gods and worship the statue of Trajan, just to prove that they were not Christians. But he added “There is no forcing, it is said, those who are really Christians, into any of these compliances.”
His writings testify that the existence of the Christ was a reality for those followers who were prepared to give their lives for their belief in him. People dont generally die for a myth.
There was also an archeological find in 2002 of an ossuary (burial box made of limestone) which was dated to the first century. The inscription was in Aramaic and reads “James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus.”
Whats interesting is that ossuaries would mention the father of the deceased but very rarely a brother. Its for that reason that some scholars believe that the Jesus mentioned must have been somebody important otherwise he would not be mentioned. Im not saying that box definitely contains the bones of James, but there is a strong possibility that it does.
Thank you Martin, I have ordered it. 
It appears that some of the info on the sites that Selene provided have proven there is a massive problem with Carbon 14 dating process - some of it was stiched in 1300s they think - read through the sights and even sceptics believe it to be much older now. The view changed in 2004 and the 1988 tests have been discounted....!
Thank you Selene for the data and the sites.
It appears that some of the info on the sites that Selene provided have proven there is a massive problem with Carbon 14 dating process - some of it was stiched in 1300s they think - read through the sights and even sceptics believe it to be much older now. The view changed in 2004 and the 1988 tests have been discounted....!
Thank you Selene for the data and the sites.
Does anyone have a sample of Jesus DNA with which to compare the cloth with?
Because that would be the only way to prove that it was the cloth that Jesus was wrapped in. Also, why should so much emphasis be placed on a piece of cloth anyway??? Idolatry is forbidden in both the old and new testament.
Selene
New Member
We don't need a sample of Jesus DNA. The fact is that we don't know how a photographic image of a crucified man got on a cloth. We already know that in history, there was only one man who was crucified and rose from the dead. The other man recorded in biblical history of rising from the dead was Lazarus, but Lazarus was not crucified. The only thing that could explain the Shroud of Turin would be a resurrection of a crucified person, and there is only one person who was crucified and rose from the dead.
Idoltry is forbidden, but holding the image in memorial and honor is not idoltry. If veneration is idoltry, then all people who keep pictures of their spouse and children in their homes and wallets should get rid of it.
Hi mcorba, I had a friend who was ignorant and aggresive in his attack. One of the interesting facts I like was that no ancient sources denied that Jesus was a real man who lived on the earth. There were many who hated Christianity and wanted it to disappear. Celsus wrote 'The True Discourse' in A.D. 175, and Prophyry was born in A.D. 232 and wrote 'Against the Christians'. You can tell Christianity really irritated these men. In their writings they attack Jesus, try to explain how he did his miracles, they critique his virgin birthc etc. As a part of their attack they did NOT try to say he did not exist, they believe Jesus lived in the places and the time that everyone else did, they just argue about who he was. They lived much closer to the time of Jesus than we do, and the non-existence theme was not an arguement. One can only guess that there were still grandchildren of people who knew close disciples, or maybe even close descendants of witnesses, for whatever reason, his non-existence was not an issue to early critics. Like everyone else already said, early records confirming N.T. teachings from non-Christians exist. Josephus wrote that John the Baptist was killed by Herod. There are writings about Pilate, etc, etc. The N.T. was written early enough that it would have been hard to add these historical people to literature if it had not happened. Great answers by everybody, I always learn a lot on here.
Nope But the Blood Stains on the Shroud perfectly match the blood stains on the Sudarium of Oviedo.
Its also the same Blood type, a fairly rare blood type, Like ABnegative or something.
in all the early church writings, nothing is mentioned of the burial cloths of Jesus....by anyone.
You would expect that someone would have mentioned it somewhere but no one did.
AB is a very common blood type for middle eastern people.
Unfortunately, these things are not evidence for Christ having lived. If you want to convince a skeptic then you'll need something far more reliable then these relics.
from my experience, most non believers want non secular sources as evidence and we know that they are very few and far between.
Your Right about this However, I was just quoting from memory and Said "AB negative" , Which I think is more Rare. !?! ?!?
Well, I don't have to convince Skeptics, I gotta lotta sources. I always read skeptic sites about stuff like this. There not always honest either.
My point is that, The shroud pre 1980's was a good proof. Then the subsequent reseaerch teams showed it was a fake. But this is exactly what skeptic's wanted.
Now, It appears they were totally wrong, and the skeptics now are fighting a losing battle, as far as proof goes. By there own standards.
Believe me Skeptics Don't See, will ever Admit, or be conviinced by any proof the Shroud is real! This is what a pessimist is !
how can it possibly be proven to have been the cloth Jesus was wrapped in?
Someone may have been wrapped in it, but to say it was a specific person would require more then an unknown persons word for it. Many people were tortured and hung in the same fashion for centuries...especially in the middle ages...so it could have been any one of them. The only way to have absolute proof is either of two ways
1. Jesus comes down from heaven and tells us himself if it was his burial cloth
OR
2. We get a sample of Jesus DNA and compare it to the DNA found on the shroud.
Another point of contention I have with the shroud is that it is said to have the detail of the roman coins over the eyes. Now, I cannot imagine why Jesus followers would put coins over the eyes unless they were practicing pagan religious superstitions....and i highly doubt that they were. Pagan practices are not something that Jesus would have approved of his disciples performing on his own body, so it just adds even more to the improbability of it all.
Selene
New Member
Hello Pegg,
Actually, there were early Church writings about the burial cloth. Below is a weblink showing that the burial cloth bearing the image of Jesus going back to 544 AD. It was believed that the Shroud of Turin was brought to the city of Edessa by one of Jesus' disciples. There are also documents in the Vatican Library that mentioned this burial cloth bearing the image of Christ.
http://www.shroudofturin4journalists.com/history.htm
The fact that it is a photographic image is proof enough. Yes, an ordinary person who was tortured and crucified in the same way as Jesus did could be wrapped in the cloth, but no ordinary person would be able to leave an image that can only be seen through photography.
In Christ,
Selene
This is totally false a painter, Or early painters could not have possibly have produced this. The image is in 3D, only exposed to the top most fibers. Painters paint pictures to fool the eye into seeing what it might look like. A long still photo does not produce the same results as what appears on the shroud. The image could not haver formed, but under a hi dose of Light unproduceable by todays standard's. Only something akin to to a quatum singularity coulld have produced it. If it was photographic The weight of the body on the material would produce distoted flattening to the 3D image. The only way the image could be acurately portrayed is if the body was somehow suspeneded between the to halves, which is scientifically, but not spirtually impossible.
Selene
New Member
Hello Doppleganger,
I never said that it was painted. I said it was a photographic image, and in those days, cameras were not invented.
In Christ,
Selene
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