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The pure.
The Mother of Emmanuel God with us.
Full of Grace.
Holy mother church
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The pure.
The Mother of Emmanuel God with us.
Full of Grace.
Peter was the head or serial denier.
Christ in us the power to believe is the invisible head of the Church
Catholicism a hierarchy of venerable men that must Lord it over the faith or understanding of the non-venerable pew sitters .Jesus called them a brood of vipers
The idea that God’s will is inspired from earth (Rome) and loosed in heaven Is what the law of the fathers required turning things upside down as if the Potter had no understanding A proper translation must be applied
Mathew 16: 18-19 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, and whatever you release on earth will have been released in heaven.”.
The proper understand that allows the chapter to flow without the false idea of Peters false pride thinking he was the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against and not the gospel .Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man Jesus .That window closed when he disappeared out of sight
Isa 22:1
The burden of the valley of vision. What aileth thee now, that thou art wholly gone up to the housetops?
2 Thou that art full of stirs, a tumultuous city, joyous city: thy slain men are not slain with the sword, nor dead in battle.
3 All thy rulers are fled together, they are bound by the archers: all that are found in thee are bound together, which have fled from far.
4 Therefore said I, Look away from me; I will weep bitterly, labour not to comfort me, because of the spoiling of the daughter of my people.
5 For it is a day of trouble, and of treading down, and of perplexity by the Lord God of hosts in the valley of vision, breaking down the walls, and of crying to the mountains.
6 And Elam bare the quiver with chariots of men and horsemen, and Kir uncovered the shield.
7 And it shall come to pass, that thy choicest valleys shall be full of chariots, and the horsemen shall set themselves in array at the gate.
8 And he discovered the covering of Judah, and thou didst look in that day to the armour of the house of the forest.
9 Ye have seen also the breaches of the city of David, that they are many: and ye gathered together the waters of the lower pool.
10 And ye have numbered the houses of Jerusalem, and the houses have ye broken down to fortify the wall.
11 Ye made also a ditch between the two walls for the water of the old pool: but ye have not looked unto the maker thereof, neither had respect unto him that fashioned it long ago.
12 And in that day did the Lord God of hosts call to weeping, and to mourning, and to baldness, and to girding with sackcloth:
13 And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for to morrow we shall die.
14 And it was revealed in mine ears by the Lord of hosts, Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till ye die, saith the Lord God of hosts.
15 Thus saith the Lord God of hosts, Go, get thee unto this treasurer, even unto Shebna, which is over the house, and say,
16 What hast thou here? and whom hast thou here, that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here, as he that heweth him out a sepulchre on high, and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock?
17 Behold, the Lord will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee.
18 He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house.
19 And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down.
20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah:
21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.
22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
The government of the church is on Peter!
Like Joseph under pharaoh
He administers the kingdom for christ
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Why all this praise towards Peter and Mary, as well as towards the Pope and the Catholic Church? All glory belongs to Christ alone!
thats true!
2 thes 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
But we’re not talking glory but authority
Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18
Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.
Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.
Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments
Authority of the Apostles!
What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?
Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!
The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!
Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20
What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?
Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!
The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!
Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
The context does not involve a bureaucratic succession. It is the authority all Christians have who are called and led to administer God's grace and God's judgment. The claim that all authority must pass through the controls of Catholic authorities is *not* in the Scriptures. Calling a nation like Israel or a group like the 12 apostles in no way establishes a hierarchy nor a succession. The assumption of control by an elite group is contrary to Scriptures, which has stated that there are other sheep folds, and service rather than domination.
The claim of supreme authority by *any* domination is a form of cultism and sectarianism. It is "party spirit," and creates schisms.
Again this authority is not being narrowly applied to an ecclesiastical body, nor to any exclusive leadership. The only requirement is that the leadership be called by God, in whatever nation or denomination that leadership happens to be in.
James warned those who would be leaders and teachers in the church within his sphere of influence to be responsible with their teaching. Paul's churches were outside of the scope of James' churches, and the Catholic Church did not exist yet.
James was calling for responsible teaching, as did Paul, within their own respective communions. In no way did either James or Paul state that this teaching responsibility advances in linear fashion down narrowly through a particular organizational succession.
Your abuse of these Scriptures, without their actually teaching this succession, is contrary to the spirit of the Scriptures themselves, which calls for unity *apart from* organizational unity. It is *spiritual unity* that is being called for, of the kind that unites diverse nations with separate organizations and governments. After all, the international Church began after Israel's exclusive nationality among God's People ended.
This supposed succession is taught where? Just claiming that a group was called does not mean God did not call other groups elsewhere. After all, Paul did his ministry in spiritual unity with the 12 apostles but *separate from them!* They blessed each other in their own separate paths. They went out two by two, and not twelve by twelve!
This is your absolute worst claim, to think that Christ's grace is managed by men, and their organizations and leadership, rather than by Christ himself! To claim that Christ discriminates between organizations is a blatant attempt to create a super-Church, based on legalistic principles, rather than on spiritual principles. Grace has never been tied to a particular nation, organization, or ecclesiastical body.
Please note that in the OT, under the Law, God frowned upon Israel setting up a king over themselves, to create national unity. God had wanted national unity to be based on spiritual unity, and He had allowed 12 separate tribal areas to be established in the beginning.
It was the temple, and God Himself, that brought all 12 tribes together 3 times a year. And it was the Law that brought unity among the different groups--not organizational unity.
You have displaced God's authority for authority created by Catholic tradition. We need to get back to God's authority alone! Men will lead you down a garden path that ends in human failure. God will always bring grace and success.
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successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20
Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...
John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!
What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?
Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!
The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!
Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20
Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18
Successors of Jesus Christ!
Jesus already prepares His apostles to continue His mission with His power (binding and loosing) and with His authority (keys) matt 16:18 matt 18:18
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
John 4:1 when therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John...
Jn 4:2 Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples
Here we see Jesus delegating to His successors, Peter and the apostles!
Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing
There can be no unity of the spirit without obedience to the faith! Rom 1:5 eph 4:3
Matt 28 I am with you (the apostles)
The papacy based on Matt 16:18 and Isa 22:21-22
Matt 16:18-19
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Isa 22:21-22
21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.
22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Behold I am with you (the successors or the apostles until the end of the age, so the successors must remain until the end of the age) matt 28:19
(None of the so called reformers were apostles) (no man has authority to start a church)
Successors of Moses!
Matt 23 why does Jesus say to obey the successors of Moses?
The successors of Moses sit in the chair of Moses having the authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Matt 23 and Jesus commanded them to be obeyed! Then the kingdom was taken from them matt 21:43 and given to Peter, Matt 16:18 the apostles, Matt 18:18 and their successors with the authority of the keys and the power to bind and lose!
Jesus said to obey the authority of the successors of Moses mt 23 authority of the keys and power to bind and loose and this power and authority was taken from them matt and given by Christ to Peter, the apostles and their successors, mt 16:18 18:18 this same authority and power must be obeyed!
mt 28:18-20 all authority is given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors requiring obedience, rom 1:5 obedience to the faith!
And Jesus say to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: behold I am with you even until the end of the world!!!
So the apostles have to remain until the end! Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and Priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Reign with kingdom authority (keys) power (bind loose) matt 16:18
The successors of Peter and the apostles have a valid jurisdictional authority (keys) and power (bind and loose) by Jesus Christ!
Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...
John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
apostolic succession!
explicit and implicit in scripture
Judas was an apostle
Acts 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Matthias succeeded him as apostle
acts 1: 26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
now if it applies to judas how much more to Peter and the other apostles
Matt 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Jesus is with His church and His apostles until the end! So the apostles must remain until the end governing the church administering the kingdom
Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: (jurisdictional authority of the universal church) and the power to bind and loose:
Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:
Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
The 11 had to replace Judas, and that's about as far as selecting successors went!
Where is this in Scriptures? The Apostles were not given authority to choose successors, nor was a continuous line of organizational continuity ever established by Christ. Choosing successors in an organization is establishing an organization. But the Church is not a catholic, or universal, organization, but rather, numerous organizations called to reach different territories.
But it's obvious to me you're not really listening. We're done.
Jn 20:21-23 christ has authority to select successors (the apostles) so the apostles have the same authority they too select successors after all the great commission is still in effect
The gospel must be preached disciples must be baptized
There is more than one church? Jn 10:16
Major covenants!
God initiated each covenant and the mediator always remains on earth mediating the covenant except for Christ who make Peter His personal representative and vicar!
Adam
(Marriage covenant)
Noah
(Family covenant)
Abraham
(Tribal covenant)
Moses:
(National covenant)
Jesus Christ:
(Universal covenant)
New and eternal covenant founded by Jesus Christ! Matt 16:18
Universal (Catholic)
World universal
Lk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. ( catholic universal)
Lk 2:31 prepared before the face of all (catholic) people
Jn 1:29 lamb of God who takes way the sins of the world
Jn 3:16 for God so loved the world
1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 Tim 2:5 one mediator
Jn 10:16 One new covenant church
Kingdom
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
The pagan Roman empire was conquered by Christ and His church, to the victor go the spoils
the holy Catholic Church
Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Uh, get a dictionary or even better, a good concordance, and look up the words "catholic" and "church." Then, maybe meaningful conversation is possible, but I see discussion with those enslaved by Roman dogma to be at best, an exercise in futility, and at worst an exercise in vanity.
Have you ever heard the story of the blind man and the elephant?
catholic means universal
Jn 10:16 Catholic Church
The promise (sacred oath or sacrament) of the Father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27
Dogma is Latin for thee faith eph 4:5 Jude 1:3
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