Holy Spirit

[whirlwind]

QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Mar 15 2009, 01:11 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70864
According to what you seem to believe a person never knows if he is saved or not. I have lived a very long and full life and have yet to meet someone that is perfect IN THE FLESH. I understand that you have been taught, and believe, that a child of God is becoming sinless in the flesh. But I don't see that happening and I think that idea is deceiving and will send many to hell.I will not argue with you. Believe as you wish. But you really should look around you and see if there are any perfect in the flesh.qoute; "if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS." If you believe that means sins of the flesh then if a person sins wilfully he can't be saved because there is no more sacrifice for sins. Obviously you seem to think you never sin wilfully. You need to think about that. You can decieve men but not God.However, there are many that God has made perfect in the spirit.

I don't quite understand where this conversation got so off kilter. It is as if you simply wish to be argumentative. My point is that no one, including you my friend, is perfect or sinless but it is certainly what we strive to be. And, no I do NOT WILFULLY sin and I'm not trying to deceive anyone...certainly not God. All that follow Him with love and repentance are accepted by Him...that does not make them "perfect in the spirit." But, He is perfecting them. Perhaps some have achieved that perfect place but...I don't think there have been many.

Even Moses wasn't perfect in spirit and His disciple Peter denied Him. As far as I know...only Christ is the perfect One.You sound very familiar to me Richard. Your style and manner makes me think of someone on another forum a few months ago...a very mysterious man.

We'll see.

 

[RichardBurger]

QUOTE (whirlwind @ Mar 15 2009, 02:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70867

I don't quite understand where this conversation got so off kilter. It is as if you simply wish to be argumentative. My point is that no one, including you my friend, is perfect or sinless but it is certainly what we strive to be. And, no I do NOT WILFULLY sin and I'm not trying to deceive anyone...certainly not God. All that follow Him with love and repentance are accepted by Him...that does not make them "perfect in the spirit." But, He is perfecting them. Perhaps some have achieved that perfect place but...I don't think there have been many.

Even Moses wasn't perfect in spirit and His disciple Peter denied Him. As far as I know...only Christ is the perfect One.You sound very familiar to me Richard. Your style and manner makes me think of someone on another forum a few months ago...a very mysterious man.

We'll see.

So if I disagree with you, and say so, I am being argumentative. For your information it takes two to argue so you are as much to blame as you wish to blame me. If I state what I believe and do not bend to the will of others I am very mysterious. I am sure they said those same things about Jesus, Paul and others that follow Jesus Christ. Why do you want to make this personal? Why are you trying to put me down? If you are going to make this personal, like Jordan does, then you will not get anymore replies from me.I have not said I am perfect in the flesh. I have been saying just the opposite. We all sin in the flesh. You are the one that is saying we become perfect in the flesh. What I have said, and please don't say I said otherwise, is that the born again child of God is already perfect in the spirit. God has made him/her perfect in the spirit by placing him/her "in Christ."If a person does not believe a child of God is perfect in the spirit then they have some studing to do.Gal 3:3-43 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? NKJV* The above is truth. You cannot be made perfect by the flesh, by any actions of the flesh.Heb 10:11-14 Christ's Death Perfects the Sanctified11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. NKJV* The, born of the Holy Spirit, child of God is already perfect. Made so by Jesus’ death on the cross. It is not something that is accomplished over time. 1 John 3:99 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. NKJV* The born again child of God cannot sin.1 John 5:4-5 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? NKJV* Nothing in these verses say our victory is in the future. It is all written in the past tense.1 John 5:18-2018 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one. 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. NKJV* Since the child of God is "in Christ" they do not sin any longer in the spirit. However, just like Paul said in Romans 7, their flesh follows the law of sin.

 

[whirlwind]

QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Mar 15 2009, 02:14 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70868
So if I disagree with you, and say so, I am being argumentative. For your information it takes two to argue so you are as much to blame as you wish to blame me. If I state what I believe and do not bend to the will of others I am very mysterious. I am sure they said those same things about Jesus, Paul and others that follow Jesus Christ. Why do you want to make this personal? Why are you trying to put me down? If you are going to make this personal, like Jordan does, then you will not get anymore replies from me.
No Richard....disagreeing with someone isn't being argumentative. It is the way in which they disagree that gives it that title. The "mysterious" thing wasn't a "put down" at all. The one I thought you might be went by that name on another forum...that's all...from the way you write you two could be twins. I'm not making anything personal.

QUOTE
I have not said I am perfect in the flesh. I have been saying just the opposite. We all sin in the flesh. You are the one that is saying we become perfect in the flesh. What I have said, and please don't say I said otherwise, is that the born again child of God is already perfect in the spirit. God has made him/her perfect in the spirit by placing him/her "in Christ."If a person does not believe a child of God is perfect in the spirit then they have some studing to do.Gal 3:3-43 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? NKJV* The above is truth. You cannot be made perfect by the flesh, by any actions of the flesh.
The words, "made perfect" in the Greek are...being perfected. So, no...we are not perfect in spirit but our spirits are being perfected. But, thank you for the suggestion and I'll continue to study.

May I ask...did I say that our flesh, or the actions of our flesh, perfect us?

I think we're just on different wave lengths here or....one of us is just being argumentative. OOPS, I said it again!

: QUOTE
Heb 10:11-14 Christ's Death Perfects the Sanctified11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. NKJV
Yes, He was the sacrifice for our sins. He was the "perfect" sacrifice and He is the only offering forever for those that love Him and repent. Even as humans, being imperfect people, His sacrifice takes our sins and allows us to be with Him. Being "perfected forever" means...being completed, consecrated, finished...perfected in order to be with Him. Does it mean we have perfect spirits? No, it doesn't but He counts us worthy enough to be with Him.QUOTE
* The, born of the Holy Spirit, child of God is already perfect. Made so by Jesus’ death on the cross. It is not something that is accomplished over time. 1 John 3:99 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. NKJV* The born again child of God cannot sin.
This is where we began. As I said previously...."I didn't say that we are saved by changing...we change because we are saved." Born again children do sin....not wilfully but nevertheless we sin. As long as we are in flesh bodies we are suseptible to thoughts and actions that are not pleasant to God. QUOTE
1 John 5:4-5 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? NKJV* Nothing in these verses say our victory is in the future. It is all written in the past tense.
I agree. It happens when we overcome through Him.QUOTE
1 John 5:18-2018 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one. 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. NKJV
"Sinneth not" (my preference in Biblical terms) or your "does not sin," means.....HABITUAL, WILLING SIN. No one in this flesh body is perfect Richard...NO ONE!QUOTE
* Since the child of God is "in Christ" they do not sin any longer in the spirit. However, just like Paul said in Romans 7, their flesh follows the law of sin.
A child of God would not willingly sin but....they are not perfect. He accepts us as we are but...we are not perfect.

 

[RichardBurger]

QUOTE (whirlwind @ Mar 15 2009, 04:10 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70869
No Richard....disagreeing with someone isn't being argumentative. It is the way in which they disagree that gives it that title. The "mysterious" thing wasn't a "put down" at all. The one I thought you might be went by that name on another forum...that's all...from the way you write you two could be twins. I'm not making anything personal.

The words, "made perfect" in the Greek are...being perfected. So, no...we are not perfect in spirit but our spirits are being perfected. But, thank you for the suggestion and I'll continue to study.

May I ask...did I say that our flesh, or the actions of our flesh, perfect us?

I think we're just on different wave lengths here or....one of us is just being argumentative. OOPS, I said it again!

: Yes, He was the sacrifice for our sins. He was the "perfect" sacrifice and He is the only offering forever for those that love Him and repent. Even as humans, being imperfect people, His sacrifice takes our sins and allows us to be with Him. Being "perfected forever" means...being completed, consecrated, finished...perfected in order to be with Him. Does it mean we have perfect spirits? No, it doesn't but He counts us worthy enough to be with Him.This is where we began. As I said previously...."I didn't say that we are saved by changing...we change because we are saved." Born again children do sin....not wilfully but nevertheless we sin. As long as we are in flesh bodies we are suseptible to thoughts and actions that are not pleasant to God. I agree. It happens when we overcome through Him."Sinneth not" (my preference in Biblical terms) or your "does not sin," means.....HABITUAL, WILLING SIN. No one in this flesh body is perfect Richard...NO ONE!A child of God would not willingly sin but....they are not perfect. He accepts us as we are but...we are not perfect.
We are too far apart to come to any agreement. If your "born again" spirit, that is born of God, still sins then it is not born of God. You, obviously, do not see that a child of God has a fleshly sinful nature and a born again spirit that does not sin because it is born of God. That is what Paul described in Romans 7.What you have said is that a child of God, that has been born of God, sins in the spirit and I believe the Scriptures say they don’t. They don't sin because the blood of Jesus cleanses them from all sin and they are not under the law. If you concede that there is one sin that Jesus' blood does not cleanses then you are absolutely wrong.Heb 10:11-14 Christ's Death Perfects the Sanctified11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. NKJVIs getting angry a willful sin? Here is the problem with your idea on willful sinning. A person can rationalize that they are not willfully sinning and deceive him/her self. That person, is deciding for him/her self, what is sin and what is not sin and, of course, since they can decide what is sin or isn't sin then they are their own law giver and they can claim that they do not sin willfully.According to Jesus, if you think it, you have committed it. But the religious want to make different categories of sin so they can say they don't sin.

 

[whirlwind]

QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Mar 16 2009, 06:32 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70893
We are too far apart to come to any agreement. If your "born again" spirit, that is born of God, still sins then it is not born of God. You, obviously, do not see that a child of God has a fleshly sinful nature and a born again spirit that does not sin because it is born of God. That is what Paul described in Romans 7.
Good morning Richard

It isn't necessary for us to reach an agreement.

In that mode....I must disagree with your conjecture for I do see that a child of God has a "fleshly sinful nature" but will agree in that I do not see a born again spirit that doesn't sin (wilfully sin)...as long as it is in this flesh body. Sadly, my "born again spirit" sins when I think an unkind thought, lose my temper, don't take time with another person or in many other ways. Does that mean I am not "born of God?" No...it does not.

There is a great difference in wilful, habitual sinning and not being a perfect being. I'm afraid we get a different understanding from Paul's teaching in Romans 7....

Romans 7:17-20 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good, I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:22-24 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.​

As long as we are in flesh bodies we can involuntarily sin. You are separating the soul and the body in saying that our flesh can sin but not our spirit. They are a dynamic duo until this flesh existance ends for it is our mind, our spirit that thinks. Our flesh bodies do nothing without it. Sin dwelleth in me, as it dwelled in Paul....and as it does in all of us.QUOTE
What you have said is that a child of God, that has been born of God, sins in the spirit and I believe the Scriptures say they don’t. They don't sin because the blood of Jesus cleanses them from all sin and they are not under the law. If you concede that there is one sin that Jesus' blood does not cleanses then you are absolutely wrong.
There is one unforgiveable sin Richard.

And too, although you may not believe it, even an elect can lose their salvation. [Hebrews 6:4-6]QUOTE
Is getting angry a willful sin? Here is the problem with your idea on willful sinning. A person can rationalize that they are not willfully sinning and deceive him/her self. That person, is deciding for him/her self, what is sin and what is not sin and, of course, since they can decide what is sin or isn't sin then they are their own law giver and they can claim that they do not sin willfully.According to Jesus, if you think it, you have committed it. But the religious want to make different categories of sin so they can say they don't sin.
It is you saying you don't sin.

Are you the "religious?" As far as being a law giver....God did quite a fine job so it isn't necessary for us to decide what is and isn't a sin.

 

[RichardBurger]

QUOTE (whirlwind @ Mar 16 2009, 08:21 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70894
Good morning Richard

It isn't necessary for us to reach an agreement.

In that mode....I must disagree with your conjecture for I do see that a child of God has a "fleshly sinful nature" but will agree in that I do not see a born again spirit that doesn't sin (wilfully sin)...as long as it is in this flesh body. Sadly, my "born again spirit" sins when I think an unkind thought, lose my temper, don't take time with another person or in many other ways. Does that mean I am not "born of God?" No...it does not.

There is a great difference in wilful, habitual sinning and not being a perfect being. I'm afraid we get a different understanding from Paul's teaching in Romans 7....

Romans 7:17-20 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good, I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:22-24 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.​

As long as we are in flesh bodies we can involuntarily sin. You are separating the soul and the body in saying that our flesh can sin but not our spirit. They are a dynamic duo until this flesh existance ends for it is our mind, our spirit that thinks. Our flesh bodies do nothing without it. Sin dwelleth in me, as it dwelled in Paul....and as it does in all of us.There is one unforgiveable sin Richard.

And too, although you may not believe it, even an elect can lose their salvation. [Hebrews 6:4-6]It is you saying you don't sin.

Are you the "religious?" As far as being a law giver....God did quite a fine job so it isn't necessary for us to decide what is and isn't a sin.

Amazing! I have said that the spirit does not sin and also said that the flesh sins and you say I said "that I don't sin." Give me a break, stop trying to tell me what I say. You will always get it wrong. My sinful nature sins but my spirit that is born of God does not sin. Can you hold that thought?You can't seem to realize that there are two natures living in the born again child of God and that is why you will never see things as I do.Yes, we have a different understanding of what Paul wrote in Romans 7. I will not waste any more of my time, or yours, on this because you will refuse to believe as I do no matter what I say.No! I am not religious. Religion is ALL about what men/women do for the god of their imaginations. I do not believe in the works of Man for salvation. God accomplished ALL that is necessary on the cross. We are saved, made righteous, made perfect, made sinless, and sanctified by God when we place our faith, trust, confidence and hope in His work on the cross. I believe in the power of God to, not only save, but to keep saved, all those that put their faith, trust, confidence and hope in His work on the cross. He made a way for those that live in bodies with a sinful nature to be saved in spite of their sinful nature. If others do not believe this then the only other belief is that men/women must save themselves by what they do.What do you see as the "unforgivable sin?" --- I do not think sins of the flesh are unforgivable. If you do then this is another area where we disagree. -- The Jews called the spirit that was in Jesus an unholy spirit and in doing so they called the Holy Spirit unholy. That is the unforgivable sin and it is commited on these forums all the time when a person calls the Holy Spirit that lives in the child of God a unholy Spirit. But that is between them and God.You said, quote "As long as we are in flesh bodies we can involuntarily sin. You are separating the soul and the body in saying that our flesh can sin but not our spirit. They are a dynamic duo until this flesh existance ends for it is our mind, our spirit that thinks. Our flesh bodies do nothing without it. Sin dwelleth in me, as it dwelled in Paul....and as it does in all of us."And yet the scriptures you quote says "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Who is the I and why is it that it is not the I that commits the sin?

 

[whirlwind]

QUOTE (RichardBurger @ Mar 16 2009, 10:58 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70898
Amazing! I have said that the spirit does not sin and also said that the flesh sins and you say I said "that I don't sin." Give me a break, stop trying to tell me what I say. You will always get it wrong. My sinful nature sins but my spirit that is born of God does not sin. Can you hold that thought?You can't seem to realize that there are two natures living in the born again child of God and that is why you will never see things as I do.Yes, we have a different understanding of what Paul wrote in Romans 7. I will not waste any more of my time, or yours, on this because you will refuse to believe as I do no matter what I say.No! I am not religious. Religion is ALL about what men/women do for the god of their imaginations. I do not believe in the works of Man for salvation. God accomplished ALL that is necessary on the cross. We are saved, made righteous, made perfect, made sinless, and sanctified by God when we place our faith, trust, confidence and hope in His work on the cross. I believe in the power of God to, not only save, but to keep saved, all those that put their faith, trust, confidence and hope in His work on the cross. He made a way for those that live in bodies with a sinful nature to be saved in spite of their sinful nature. If others do not believe this then the only other belief is that men/women must save themselves by what they do.What do you see as the "unforgivable sin?" --- I do not think sins of the flesh are unforgivable. If you do then this is another area where we disagree. -- The Jews called the spirit that was in Jesus an unholy spirit and in doing so they called the Holy Spirit unholy. That is the unforgivable sin and it is commited on these forums all the time when a person calls the Holy Spirit that lives in the child of God a unholy Spirit. But that is between them and God.You said, quote "As long as we are in flesh bodies we can involuntarily sin. You are separating the soul and the body in saying that our flesh can sin but not our spirit. They are a dynamic duo until this flesh existance ends for it is our mind, our spirit that thinks. Our flesh bodies do nothing without it. Sin dwelleth in me, as it dwelled in Paul....and as it does in all of us."And yet the scriptures you quote says "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Who is the I and why is it that it is not the I that commits the sin?
Sorry Richard....I read the first paragraph and that is as far as I want to go.Have a terrific day my friend.

 

[RichardBurger]

QUOTE (whirlwind @ Mar 16 2009, 01:08 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70904
Sorry Richard....I read the first paragraph and that is as far as I want to go.Have a terrific day my friend.
Do as you wish.

 

[ami]

QUOTE (Denver @ Mar 14 2009, 06:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=70808
What, brother/sister, do the Scriptures say?Now there is a lot said about the Ruach of Adonai, which is the Spirit. It is important to understand the breath aspect of the Holy Spirit, but that is only a part of the whole. You are correct in that the Holy Spirit is God, see where Jesus says "I will come to you" when he speaks in this passage? Only those that have the light to receive understand what's going on, but you know the Spirit to be the Father, as is the Son, correct?
Thank you all for your replays. I am still reading the replays. I just want to answer to Denver and may be ask one more question. Yes I belive that the spirit is the father and the son as they all are one and equal but still I am confused. When Jesus was on earth he was teaching his disciples about him being sent by the father. He was so much talking about the father and that he himself does nothing but what he saw from the father. And when he was baptized by John. Matt 3:16-17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. the spirit came as a dove and people heard a voice from the sky saying that this is my son whom I love. Who was talking here? I know this is silly to ask but i want to know more on this.ThanksAmi

 

[mjrhealth]

QUOTE (ami @ Mar 21 2009, 05:16 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71128
Thank you all for your replays. I am still reading the replays. I just want to answer to Denver and may be ask one more question. Yes I belive that the spirit is the father and the son as they all are one and equal but still I am confused. When Jesus was on earth he was teaching his disciples about him being sent by the father. He was so much talking about the father and that he himself does nothing but what he saw from the father. And when he was baptized by John. Matt 3:16-17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. the spirit came as a dove and people heard a voice from the sky saying that this is my son whom I love. Who was talking here? I know this is silly to ask but i want to know more on this.ThanksAmi
Jesus is the Son of God, Jesus was" Full of the Holy Ghost", which is why He told the disciples",(Joh 16:7) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.(Joh 16:8) And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgmentJoh 16:9) Of sin, because they believe not on me;(Joh 16:10) Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;(Joh 16:11) Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.(Joh 16:12) I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.(Joh 16:13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.(Joh 16:14) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.Which is why the disciple never received the Holy spirit til after Jesus was resurected. and notice 6:12, HE ahs much more to say, so if the bible is the final word then i guess that verse isnt true?? God bless

 

[Wakka]

Easy: The Holy Spirit abides with us when we're Christian. The Holy Spirit abides in us when we present our bodies as a clean temple (sin free and ready to follow any commands that God gives us).

 

[Jordan]

QUOTE (Wakka @ Mar 22 2009, 04:38 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71186
Easy: The Holy Spirit abides with us when we're Christian. The Holy Spirit abides in us when we present our bodies as a clean temple (sin free and ready to follow any commands that God gives us).
True, but the real factor is when we lie on the Truth only and not men's lies after one have the Holy Spirit/Ghost.

 

[Wakka]

QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 22 2009, 03:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71189
True, but the real factor is when we lie on the Truth only and not men's lies after one have the Holy Spirit/Ghost.
The Holy Ghost will take care of the person. That's nothing to worry about because God takes care of His flock. If something offends the Holy Ghost you'll know it as if it was night and day.

 

[setfree]

What is in us at salvation? Is it the seed of Christ? or the Holy Spirit? Or are they both the same?

 

[HammerStone]

QUOTE
Yes I belive that the spirit is the father and the son as they all are one and equal but still I am confused. When Jesus was on earth he was teaching his disciples about him being sent by the father. He was so much talking about the father and that he himself does nothing but what he saw from the father. And when he was baptized by John. Matt 3:16-17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. the spirit came as a dove and people heard a voice from the sky saying that this is my son whom I love. Who was talking here? I know this is silly to ask but i want to know more on this.
Ami, glad to see you thinking into it, so many times this is not done.QUOTE
John 14:6-11Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
All of that is not quite as confusing as you first think. Christ first tells us that he is the way to the Father, and the only way. Ask yourself this: What did he do to become the way? Think about His death on the cross and what it means, he cleared the way by being the one-and-all-time sacrifice, conditional on that you believe Him to be the Messiah(Christ). It's conditional that you first accept that way. Jesus then moves on to say, if you knew me, you knew Him, and that those present (and those to come) know the Father as well through Christ. Naturally, the disciples are confused by this -- how can you know the Father through the Son? Think about this in an Earthly sense for a moment. How can you typically know (beyond superficial traits like name) that someone is the son? Oftentimes they embody the same physical characteristics. They might not only look the same/similar, but might share actions and mannerisms. From a genetics point of view, the son will certainly contain some of the father.Now step back from the Earthly and think of it as more than that. Not only do you have this connection, but there is a more powerful one that Jesus alludes to here. He says that the Father dwells in Him and that He dwells in the Father. The best analogy I can offer on this is that each fulfills an office, similar to a modern day business entity. Think of it like this, you have a company named Denver Widgets (hypothetically) and they have a Marketing/PR department, a Production department, and a HR (Human Resources) department. These departments serve various functions, but they all form the company; the part forms the whole so to speak. This is what's going on with Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father. Remember that this is the God of the New and Old Testament; being 3 places at once is nothing for Him, given that He is everywhere.A lot will quibble with that analogy, and of course it's not perfect, but it provides a nice basis for understanding how the heavenly relationship works, based on the very words of Christ.

 

[ami]

QUOTE (Denver @ Mar 25 2009, 07:36 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=71263
Ami, glad to see you thinking into it, so many times this is not done.All of that is not quite as confusing as you first think. Christ first tells us that he is the way to the Father, and the only way. Ask yourself this: What did he do to become the way? Think about His death on the cross and what it means, he cleared the way by being the one-and-all-time sacrifice, conditional on that you believe Him to be the Messiah(Christ). It's conditional that you first accept that way. Jesus then moves on to say, if you knew me, you knew Him, and that those present (and those to come) know the Father as well through Christ. Naturally, the disciples are confused by this -- how can you know the Father through the Son? Think about this in an Earthly sense for a moment. How can you typically know (beyond superficial traits like name) that someone is the son? Oftentimes they embody the same physical characteristics. They might not only look the same/similar, but might share actions and mannerisms. From a genetics point of view, the son will certainly contain some of the father.Now step back from the Earthly and think of it as more than that. Not only do you have this connection, but there is a more powerful one that Jesus alludes to here. He says that the Father dwells in Him and that He dwells in the Father. The best analogy I can offer on this is that each fulfills an office, similar to a modern day business entity. Think of it like this, you have a company named Denver Widgets (hypothetically) and they have a Marketing/PR department, a Production department, and a HR (Human Resources) department. These departments serve various functions, but they all form the company; the part forms the whole so to speak. This is what's going on with Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father. Remember that this is the God of the New and Old Testament; being 3 places at once is nothing for Him, given that He is everywhere.A lot will quibble with that analogy, and of course it's not perfect, but it provides a nice basis for understanding how the heavenly relationship works, based on the very words of Christ.
Denver,Thanks for your clarification.Ami

 

[Albert Finch]

Romans 6:11 - Likewise recon ye yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. AffirmationI DEEM MYSELF TO BE DEAD TO SIN, ENERGIZED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT TO WALK IN THE RESURRECTION POWER OF JESUS CHRIST.

 

[Albert Finch]

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. Observation TO BE SEALED MEANS TO BE STAMPED WITH AN IMAGE. THAT MEANS, WHEN I WAS BORN AGAIN, I WAS STAMPED WITH THE LIKENESS OF THE ANOINTED ONE. I WAS MADE TO LOOK LIKE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST ON THE INSIDE.

 

[Albert Finch]

Romans 6:11 - Likewise recon ye yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. AffirmationI deem myself to be dead to sin, energized by the Holy Spirit, to walk in the resurrection power of Christ.

 

[Albert Finch]

Romans 8:13,16 - For if I live after the flesh, I shall die; but if I through the spirit to mortify the deeds of the body, I shall live. The Holy Spirit bears witness with my spirit, that I am a child of God. Affirmation I dominate my mind and my body with my spirit since I maintain my spirit properly--feeding, strengthening, and dominating my inner man with the Word.Albert Finchwww.thekeys2kingdom.com