Homosexuality: Is it the way a person is born?
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And man shall not lay down with man......You have a 5% attack on christians and society today, homosexuality, abortion etc etc. And you are getting a 62% acceptance rate even including many Christians. Now satan has a 67% percent army. If God said it, that settles it...
If you examine the genealogy of Jesus Christ, you'll find murderers, prostitutes, adulterers and idolaters, yet Jesus was born without sin. Man has a fallen nature and his sin is in his natural bent (he is misshapen by sin). If this weren't the case we wouldn't need to be renewed in the image of God in the person of Christ. You must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven and you must have your mind renewed through the training of the scripture. All sin can be forgiven other than rejecting the conviction and convincing of the Holy Spirit, but we are called to repentance regardless of the nature that was revealed in our first birth. Homosexuality is as natural to man as is any sin, but being a part of our fallen nature doesn't excuse it. All sin is rebellion against God. We are commanded to believe Him, receive Him, forsake our own will and submit to Him (that is the nature of a bride).
It may seem as though God expects us to give up a lot, but in this we gain far more than any perceived loss. This is a choice we have to make.
"Also the sons of the foreigner who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, and holds fast My covenant even them I will bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on My altar; for My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.'' Isaiah 56:6-7
We don't have an old covenant law to fulfill, Jesus did that for us, but we have a new covenant law to fulfill and it isn't optional. It starts with forsaking our attempts to justify our evil behavior before God with excuses and crying out to Him for mercy and faith to believe in His sacrifice on our behalf. Jesus died for us, but this is more than a fact and must be received by faith to enter into that new covenant. For our part of the covenant, we are called to submit to His will. Modern marriages fall short because men and women exalt their own will over each others' and over God's, but the pattern God established is that which is not to be forsaken and we do so at our own peril.
It may seem as though God expects us to give up a lot, but in this we gain far more than any perceived loss. This is a choice we have to make.
"Also the sons of the foreigner who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, and holds fast My covenant even them I will bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on My altar; for My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.'' Isaiah 56:6-7
We don't have an old covenant law to fulfill, Jesus did that for us, but we have a new covenant law to fulfill and it isn't optional. It starts with forsaking our attempts to justify our evil behavior before God with excuses and crying out to Him for mercy and faith to believe in His sacrifice on our behalf. Jesus died for us, but this is more than a fact and must be received by faith to enter into that new covenant. For our part of the covenant, we are called to submit to His will. Modern marriages fall short because men and women exalt their own will over each others' and over God's, but the pattern God established is that which is not to be forsaken and we do so at our own peril.
We don't have an old covenant law to fulfill, Jesus did that for us, but we have a new covenant law to fulfill and it isn't optional. It starts with forsaking our attempts to justify our evil behavior before God with excuses and crying out to Him for mercy and faith to believe in His sacrifice on our behalf. Jesus died for us, but this is more than a fact and must be received by faith to enter into that new covenant. For our part of the covenant, we are called to submit to His will. Modern marriages fall short because men and women exalt their own will over each others' and over God's, but the pattern God established is that which is not to be forsaken and we do so at our own peril.
MVP.
Definitely disagree with you here MVP!
The New Covenant applies to the Israel only;( see Jer. 31:31-33) they have rejected it to date; ( they are "Lo-Ammi" and in abeyance) but will be in its embrace in the future; see Zech.12:10!
As regards us; we are in total Grace from the moment we take Jesus into our hearts as Saviour! We are then at that same moment "sealed in heaven" until the completion.
Floyd.
MVP.
Definitely disagree with you here MVP!
The New Covenant applies to the Israel only;( see Jer. 31:31-33) they have rejected it to date; ( they are "Lo-Ammi" and in abeyance) but will be in its embrace in the future; see Zech.12:10!
As regards us; we are in total Grace from the moment we take Jesus into our hearts as Saviour! We are then at that same moment "sealed in heaven" until the completion.
Floyd.
River said;
So regarding my second paragraph then, if it were discovered that gays are "born that way" it would make a difference in how you approach the issue?
You seem to be suggesting that God would make a person pre-programmed to sin and then condemn him for it. There is no Gay Gene. Read this: http://www.isthereagaygene.com/scientific-evidence/
Oh please, homosexuality is shoved down our throats in just about every movie, sit-com and commercial that comes down the pike. The "government " is not a friend of Jesus Christ.
Children are not little adults who can make the right decision if presented with all the information. Lets take the Doctor Phil approach to sex education for children. Hows that "workin" for you? Are teen pregnacies through the roof? Is the percentage of teen and pre-teen girls with an STD spiraling out of control? Don't try to impose your social experiment on my children.
If you truly believe that, how do you not consider it child abuse to give a helpless child to a homosexual couple?
Have a Blessed Day,
Fred Lamm
You dodged the question: If it were discovered that gays are "born that way" would it make a difference in how you approach the issue?Fred Lamm said:
??????????? The government makes sitcoms and movies?
You dodged the question: What do you tell your daughter about gays? If she goes to public school and eventually has a classmate from a same-sex couple, what do you think her reaction will be?
First, I have no idea what you think any of that has to do with a school acknowledging the fact that some of its students come from same-sex families. But also, teen pregnancy rates are at the lowest they've been in 30 years. Not only that, but there's a significant correlation between religiosity and higher teen birth rates.
A "helpless child"? What do you mean by that?
The new covenant law is also referred to as the Royal law and I'm afraid that we're not exempt from it, however it is fulfilled by Christ in us, not by anything that we do short of receiving Him (which is not really our doing either, but according to His election.)Floyd said:
What I mean is that we are called to Love one another and to love God and in this fulfill all the requirements of the law. This is something impossible for us in our fallen nature, but having received Him it is His Spirit who works and wills to do in us (so we really can't take any credit for those works which we do in Him, because He is really the One doing them through us.) I can supply scripture if you like, but we do enter into covenant with God by faith when we receive Him as Lord and Savior (I don't believe that its possible to call Jesus your Savior without calling Him your Lord and to be genuinely believing.)
Being in the new covenant, even with its requirements, is entirely of grace (the covenant is unconditional.) Our works don't save us, but they do reveal us and also glorify God in the person of His Son in the process (which is the "job" of the Holy Spirit.)
I hope that you find this explanation more palatable, but you should understand that there is nothing of lawlessness in Christ and the implication is that He is fulfilling His law in us.
I am still not sure what you are saying here.Michael V Pardo said:
To me it is simple; I am saved in Him (Christ Jesus).
Floyd.
I wouldn't disagree with your statement, but there remains a theology to be understood behind the statement which is less simple and must consider matters of law such as our justification, as well as the process of our sanctification.Floyd said:
John wrote: 28. And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29. If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him. 1 John 2:28-29
Why would we be ashamed at His coming if we've believed Him, unless we've done things which brought reproach upon His name? John teaches us that abiding in Him is demonstrated by keeping His commandments, but I don't believe that this is referring to the entirety of the Law, as Jesus referred to the law at times as "your law" when speaking to the scribes and Pharisees. The law as received from Moses is a standard so high that men are unable to keep it, yet it contains many ritual practices which are fulfilled in the person of Christ, as well as compromises introduced through Moses, such as allowing for a certificate of divorce.
Jesus gave us a higher standard than the law of Moses. He gave us a "royal law" whose dictates are those of love. The standard of this royal law is even higher than the law of Moses, being Jesus Christ Himself, however God's grace is manifested in this law in that we aren't condemned by our failures. However, our failures remain a cause of shame as testified to by our conscience and by the Spirit within us. If you feel no shame when you sin, then you will not have the personal assurance of your salvation. The new covenant is a covenant of sacrifice. It is ratified and sealed in the blood of our Savior, but while we enter it by faith, there remains a sense in which we enter it also by our own sacrifice, submitting our will to His, dying to ourselves so that we may live for Him. We are called to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, which isn't to say that we contribute to it, but rather that we participate in it, in our sanctification, as children of a Holy God.
The question implies that I somehow treat gay people differently from other sinners. I do not. I would respond to the theif who wants me to accept their life of crime, or the adulterer who wants me to accept their unfaithfulness in the exact same manner. There is no discrimination in my approach to sin. So the answer to your question is a flat out "no".
This part of my response is directed at your statement that the "school, being a representative of the government" somehow gives the school authority to impose it's opinions on us.
I will not allow you to intrude into the private affairs of my family.
Your studies are flawed as they only count live births. Read this; http://www.bmei.org/jbem/volume4/num2/fletcher_sex_education_and_the_biblical_christian.php if you want the truth.
Helpless means unable to help ones self.
Have a Blessed Day,
Fred Lamm
So the question of whether or not gays are "born that way" is irrelevant, correct?Fred Lamm said:
Again, the schools have gay students and kids from same-sex families. Would you have them ignore this fact?
Then you shouldn't have brought your daughter into the discussion in the first place.
Nope. You didn't even read the link did you? If you had, you'd have seen this, "From its peak in 1990—when nearly 117 teens per 1,000 became pregnant—to 2008, the rate decreased by 42% (to 67.8 per 1,000)." Not only that, the report includes numbers of abortions over the same time period, and it found the abortion rate is also at its lowest since abortion became legal.
The question is not irrelevant, although you have ignored the post proving that it's not true, the purpose of the question was to excuse gay behavior but until Jesus comes back and says "about the abomination thing, it was all just a mistake", in the eyes of God the behavior is not excused.
Just because the schools have gay students does not require them to comment on their status anymore than they should comment on the status of their Christian students.
I did not bring my daughter into the discussion, I asked you not to impose your social experiment on my daughter upon which you immediately tried to pry into my family business.
I read the link, but I don't agree with it. Now let me inform you of the governments dirty little secret. There is an abortion that is not reported on any medical chart or to any government agency. Planned parenthood alone gives out as many as 1,461,816 "emergency contraception kits" (the morning after pill) in a year, and as they say they only povide 28% of all abortions, then private providers probably give out another 3 million or so. Even if only 25% of these went to teens it would push the rate to 167 per 1000.
Have a Blessed Day ,
Fred Lamm
For me, this question is one that is a moot point. Why? Jesus calls us to refrain from plenty of things that we have "natural" desires or inclinations for us to do. For instance, does anyone want to argue that a 15-20 year old remains removed from the temptation for sex outside of marriage? Are we all not tempted to tell that little white lie that might not make life a little bit easier? The very doctrine of original sin states that we all have our problems...our sins...and they can feel quite natural, and are quite natural if you assume the standard of the world. Some sins are much more difficult to wrestle with than others.
Brother James
Active Member
1. Homosexuality is "natural" in the sense that a male dog mating with its female offspring is "natural". The "natural" argument is a spurious one made to rationlize homosexual behavior. The fact that animals do something is not indicative of what people ought to do. Animals also mate serially as often as possible.
2. Ellen Degeneres' female partner in the late 1990's through early 2000 is now married to a man. She seems to have chosen.
3. Meredith Baxter was married to four different men with whom she had five children. Then, after divorcing the 4th, she "discovered" that she was a lesbian. Seems like a clear-cut choice to me. Perhaps an understandable one naturally speaking, if she had very bad relationships with men, but hardly something she was born with only to "discover" it in her 50's.
4. Otherwise heterosexual men in prison frequenly engage in homosexual behavior, and then abandon it when released from prison. How is that not a "choice".
5. Only homosexuals talk about their "sexuality" when they were 5 years old. Heterosexuals are nearly 100% asexual creatures at 5 years old. Could this "sexuality" of 5 year olds be merely a made-up rationalization? If homosexualy is a disorder or abnormality (I believe it is) then yes, people might feel "different" when they are young, later to attribute some sexual connotation to it.
I suspect that many tendancies toward negative behaviors might be inborn. What difference does that make? If pedophiles are "born that way" does that then make it okay for them to engage in pedophilia? Of course not. The "born this way" argument makes no difference at all. We live according to God's calling on our lives, what ever burdens or blessings He sees fit to bestow.
2. Ellen Degeneres' female partner in the late 1990's through early 2000 is now married to a man. She seems to have chosen.
3. Meredith Baxter was married to four different men with whom she had five children. Then, after divorcing the 4th, she "discovered" that she was a lesbian. Seems like a clear-cut choice to me. Perhaps an understandable one naturally speaking, if she had very bad relationships with men, but hardly something she was born with only to "discover" it in her 50's.
4. Otherwise heterosexual men in prison frequenly engage in homosexual behavior, and then abandon it when released from prison. How is that not a "choice".
5. Only homosexuals talk about their "sexuality" when they were 5 years old. Heterosexuals are nearly 100% asexual creatures at 5 years old. Could this "sexuality" of 5 year olds be merely a made-up rationalization? If homosexualy is a disorder or abnormality (I believe it is) then yes, people might feel "different" when they are young, later to attribute some sexual connotation to it.
I'd like to take a stab at that question. It would make no difference to me at all in my beliefs regarding homosexuality or gay marriage. Some of us are born with a genetic predisposition to being addicted to substances. One person may be able to partake in a glass or two of wine with no ill effect whatsoever, while another had better remain completely abstinant because if they are not their life becomes unmanagable and they hurt everyone around them plus themselves. They can complain all they want about how unfair it is that they were born with alcoholic genes that make them unable to control their intake of alcohol, but they still had better abstain. There are many people prohibited from any form of sexual expression by biblical teachings. The unmarried, for example. And some are called to remain unmarried for what ever God's purpose might be.River Jordan said:
I suspect that many tendancies toward negative behaviors might be inborn. What difference does that make? If pedophiles are "born that way" does that then make it okay for them to engage in pedophilia? Of course not. The "born this way" argument makes no difference at all. We live according to God's calling on our lives, what ever burdens or blessings He sees fit to bestow.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
We seem to forget....we were born into sin.
So at birth you have automatically a sinful nature.
Notice how kids are, mean, selfish, greedy, liars......etc...etc.....so saying a person was gay from birth means nothing. They use that scape goat to prove nothing to a person of God. Of course that would work on the heathen.
They say well I've always been this way. I've seen many homsexuals come to Christ, and I've watched the power of God remove the chains of bondage on their lives.
Yes.................then and only then do they regonize it was sin.
People can justify any of God's words to fit their lifestyle............but it takes the form of justified sin.
Now...............if you be gay............and want out of that lifestyle............Jesus is only a call away......
He will take it, remove it...........dstroy it...but...........one must be willing to touch His garment
We seem to forget....we were born into sin.
So at birth you have automatically a sinful nature.
Notice how kids are, mean, selfish, greedy, liars......etc...etc.....so saying a person was gay from birth means nothing. They use that scape goat to prove nothing to a person of God. Of course that would work on the heathen.
They say well I've always been this way. I've seen many homsexuals come to Christ, and I've watched the power of God remove the chains of bondage on their lives.
Yes.................then and only then do they regonize it was sin.
People can justify any of God's words to fit their lifestyle............but it takes the form of justified sin.
Now...............if you be gay............and want out of that lifestyle............Jesus is only a call away......
He will take it, remove it...........dstroy it...but...........one must be willing to touch His garment
Brother James
Active Member
All are born with a sin nature, but to my knowledge only those whose sin is manifest through homosexuality have organized a radical political movement to justify, rationalize, and force others to validate their sin.
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