Homosexuality

[aspen]

Flies always gather aound..... well...you know.

No, I do not know - never taken an interest in fly behavior, why not enlighten me on your observations?

 

[Strat]

I have left you alone since i was ask to do so,have enough decency to do what was ask of you.

 

[aspen]

I have left you alone since i was ask to do so,have enough decency to do what was ask of you.

I have left you alone as well. You responded to my post - I asked you to clarify - if you are not interested do not respond to my posts.

 

[Strat]

I have left you alone as well. You responded to my post - I asked you to clarify - if you are not interested do not respond to my posts.

I quote most every post i respond to the way you did mine...ask nothing of me and you will get it.

 

[Rach1370]

The abuse of Homosexuals is for the most part a myth,homosexuality is fairly well accepted in America,a cursory glance at the statistics will indicate that they are actually doing quite well in the areas of finance and carreer,this myth would have us beleive that Homosexuals are being beaten in the streets,that church members are coming out of their churches on Sunday morning to throw rocks at Homosexuals as they pass....that the life of a Homosexual is one of constant persecution and abuse...apart from the occasional media driven sensation of a pastor or a single church in a nation of some 300 million people saying anything at all against it they have little to chew on,but with the attitude of zero tolerance for dissent a little is enough for them and this myth is carried on.They use the same guilty until proven innocent tactics that the are in used in regard to race,by virtue of being white one must prove they are not a racist by total submission to all demands of non whites...likewise christians,in order to prove they are not "hate filled Homophobes" must submit to all demands...nice racket isn't it.

I wasn't saying that I believe that gay people are being beaten in the streets! I know that in today's society they are excepted and do very well in business if they choose.
My point was rather that just like non Christians have a somewhat skewed idea about what a Christian is...(goody, goody two shoes!)...that likewise, while gays know that Christians say homosexual sex is sin, they truly don't know what it is we're saying. There's so much more than just "you're sinning, you wicked person, you!"

The other myth that "christian" Homosexual apoligist would have us belive is that the church is somehow treating this sin as being different from other sins,i guess if one looks at the evidence they have a point since we have churches that accept Homosexuality as being normal and where they ordain priest and pastors...yeah i guess they are treating this sin a little differently.I have seen churches list their ministries and include a"special" ministry to Homosexuals....hmm special....yeah that usually means different...when we have churches who openely welcome liars,theives,adulterers ect ect and tell them that they are normal and offers them postions of leadership then i guess we will have arrived at the place where all sins are treated the same....ah yes,somebody will say that those sins are there anyway...yes they are,all churches have people and therefore sin in them....but what does that church support and give refuge to....openly ?

I agree with this. The sin of homosexuality is no different from any other sin. It should not be allowed in the Church any more than having an adulterer for a pastor should be allowed in the Church. But when I say that, I don't mean gay people can't step foot in a Church...every single person in there is a sinner. The difference is (or should be) that we are repentant sinners. It becomes wrong when a sinner tries to justify his sin, making it acceptable. Like you say, too many churches are allowing that for homosexuality, when they wouldn't for other sins.

The zero tolerance we have for questioning Homosexuality expreses itself in many ways,in the secular world it involves penalties such as loosing one's job,reputation and in some countries one can go to jail...when considering this one has to chuckle at the myth of Homosexual abuse...in the "christian" world it almost always involves subjecting logic,reason and morality to emotion....the truth of anything is determined by how the one hearing it feels about it which of course gives the Homosexuals and their supporters the ultimate advantage....they choose the words "tone" and everything else about the exchange....they determine what is "loving" and what is not....they say they are "gay" and corrupt the meaning of that word...they are Homosexuals and when one does not submit to their every demand in terms of words they pay the price,they of course as in the above case can call us "jerks" or anything else their sense of decorum such as it is will allow,since they have given themselves the moral imperative and the right to do so....zero tolerance from those who claim to seek tolerance is the great paradox of our time.....i now await the accusations of unloving,unkind words that will follow.I have seen other things discussed here in regard to their sinfulness....not a single one of them approaching 27 pages....now thats special.

When I used the term 'jerks', I was referring to the people who...like the Westboro Baptist Chruch, think that homosexual's are the basic cause for all the evil things in the world. People who are so intent on naming homosexuality a sin, in the meanest and rudest way possible, tend to forget their own sins, which have been graciously forgiven. There are people out there like this, and I find the whole issue ridiculous. They are so intent on pointing out sin, that they sin themselves.

But other than that, I find you point of zero tolerance by those demanding tolerance, very true. It's like that everywhere you look today. We must tolerate and not discriminate against every group...except the Christians! As Christians we are not allowed to say anything un PC, but everyone else has the right to dump on us to now end! It's a little stupid...and just a tad irrational!

 

[brodav9]

Just explored the issue about the Nephthalim in Gen. 6: It is notable that the reason for the Noah flood was because the fallen angels (aliens) were coming down to women to create more beings because angels can't reproduce. Today we have the incubus and sucubus situation. I have heard much about this in experiences people have had. male or female demons are coming to people of the opposite sex and even attacking them in the night. The point I am making is that non Christians or those who are not resisting as Christians are in a battle with sex problems. All of the seeming lesser sexual things are all influences of the dark world. Rom. 1: calls it things which are not convenient. in many cases it says God gave them up to a reprobate mind. It is all a evil minded issue.
it is the duty of the saints to handle their enemies with love so if any can pull them out of the fire it will be by love. Some are wanting to be free and make great ministry people, such as some of your great praise and worship ministries out there. Won't name any names here. Deliverance is needed to help some. Jesus set a man who had a legion free and he was total unclothed and not in his right mind.

I have seen the Gaderene demoniac in this day and time. Many years ago was trained as a psychiatric aide in Florida state hospital. This fellow was made to wear a football helmet and was always tried with much sheets in a chair. He would bang his head against the wall. He would cut himself also. by reaching down to bite himself. He was a escape artist and could always get out of any tying down. I noticed he was getting out of impossibilities. Each day when they had enough of him would put him in a cell. He would do sex things there. Heard he was a millionaire but couldn't have a life to enjoy it. He wasn't always crazy or (possessed). So you see he wasn't born that way.

Question? Do you who practice sex loosely want to be possessed like that. it is a horrible life to walk in fear and eyes in the back of your head to see whose watching. it is a abomination for a man to dress like a woman in the bible. A woman is born with feminine capabilities, she is not acting. you can't be a brown haired woman and be a blond, you can't do anything but put on dye. so if your a man you can't be a woman.

to sum it all up----it is dangerous to play with demons who are continually trying to make relationship with humans and lead them into things God calls wrong. Why not choose a life of joy and peace and prosperity and success. Many have. amen

When people post they just dig in to a single topic. I believe that all kinds of sin are dealt with through the different posting system. I still say that the occult is the most evil of the sins. Do have to say that incubus and sucubus sex is occult though. I have known high ranking witches who claim to have sex with Satan himself.
These witches are born again Christians who told me their personal testimonies. I love people who may or were gay, but hate their practices because it is darkness and I love Jesus who is the light. My love is Christ's love which is hopeful for their salvation and deliverance. I have been around those who were saved and became Christians. They walk in light and obey God's word.

 

[dragonfly]

Great post, bro. Thanks.

Could I just clarify, that -

'These witches are born again Christians who told me their personal testimonies', have stopped practising witchcraft, now that they are born again Christians?

 

[aspen]

Just explored the issue about the Nephthalim in Gen. 6: It is notable that the reason for the Noah flood was because the fallen angels (aliens) were coming down to women to create more beings because angels can't reproduce. Today we have the incubus and sucubus situation. I have heard much about this in experiences people have had. male or female demons are coming to people of the opposite sex and even attacking them in the night. The point I am making is that non Christians or those who are not resisting as Christians are in a battle with sex problems. All of the seeming lesser sexual things are all influences of the dark world. Rom. 1: calls it things which are not convenient. in many cases it says God gave them up to a reprobate mind. It is all a evil minded issue.
it is the duty of the saints to handle their enemies with love so if any can pull them out of the fire it will be by love. Some are wanting to be free and make great ministry people, such as some of your great praise and worship ministries out there. Won't name any names here. Deliverance is needed to help some. Jesus set a man who had a legion free and he was total unclothed and not in his right mind.

I have seen the Gaderene demoniac in this day and time. Many years ago was trained as a psychiatric aide in Florida state hospital. This fellow was made to wear a football helmet and was always tried with much sheets in a chair. He would bang his head against the wall. He would cut himself also. by reaching down to bite himself. He was a escape artist and could always get out of any tying down. I noticed he was getting out of impossibilities. Each day when they had enough of him would put him in a cell. He would do sex things there. Heard he was a millionaire but couldn't have a life to enjoy it. He wasn't always crazy or (possessed). So you see he wasn't born that way.

Question? Do you who practice sex loosely want to be possessed like that. it is a horrible life to walk in fear and eyes in the back of your head to see whose watching. it is a abomination for a man to dress like a woman in the bible. A woman is born with feminine capabilities, she is not acting. you can't be a brown haired woman and be a blond, you can't do anything but put on dye. so if your a man you can't be a woman.

to sum it all up----it is dangerous to play with demons who are continually trying to make relationship with humans and lead them into things God calls wrong. Why not choose a life of joy and peace and prosperity and success. Many have. amen

When people post they just dig in to a single topic. I believe that all kinds of sin are dealt with through the different posting system. I still say that the occult is the most evil of the sins. Do have to say that incubus and sucubus sex is occult though. I have known high ranking witches who claim to have sex with Satan himself.
These witches are born again Christians who told me their personal testimonies. I love people who may or were gay, but hate their practices because it is darkness and I love Jesus who is the light. My love is Christ's love which is hopeful for their salvation and deliverance. I have been around those who were saved and became Christians. They walk in light and obey God's word.

So is the answer to make all this behavior illegal?

 

[Strat]

Lots of people become overweight for various reasons other than being gluttons. Sounds like you are judging him.

You keep saying that but I have not singled out homosexuals. This thread is about homosexuals.

LOL...welcome to the modern christian mindset where the best excuse for one sin is another...remember when you were a child and the best way to divert attention from yourself was to say what about......also this is about sex modern man's favorite form of rebellion...like i heard one pastor put it "some people are wlling to surrender all to God except how they get their groove on" then its hands off Lord.

Like you said this thread is about Homosexuals and you get a hard time for talking asbout......Homosexuals...once again welcome to the logic and thought6 process of the modern christian.

 

[aspen]

LOL...welcome to the modern christian mindset where the best excuse for one sin is another...remember when you were a child and the best way to divert attention from yourself was to say what about......also this is about sex modern man's favorite form of rebellion...like i heard one pastor put it "some people are wlling to surrender all to God except how they get their groove on" then its hands off Lord.

Like you said this thread is about Homosexuals and you get a hard time for talking asbout......Homosexuals...once again welcome to the logic and thought6 process of the modern christian.

Of course, you are completely missing the point. I brought up gluttony because it is just as bad as homosexuality in God's eyes, even though we accept it, while at the same time, condemning homosexuality. It was not brought up to excuse the sin of homosexuality. Both are sinful.

 

[brightmorningstar]

It favours the word of the people over the word of God

A key point Not only that but then we have liberal christians suggesting we don’t even vote for the word of God. As if its ok for others to have their worldviews for everyone, but not ok for Christians to have God’s purposes for everyone.

aspen2

Umm.....you are making my point - all homosexuals know that some Christian churches teach that homosexuality is a sin.

No, some homosexuals know that some churches teach it, Christian churches dont, apostate ones do.

So why do we think that telling them the same information they have heard a million times is going to change their behavior?

Haven’t you agreed the gospel can change people?

my objection is imposing God's laws on nonbelievers through legislation.

Well thats democracy for you.

Our language is what pushes them away. It is not even the message so much as the language we use and the presentation of the message.

Who? The question was who, not what. And the only language and message that pushes some away is the part of the gospel that says repent.

Because homosexuality is a relationship between consenting adults that does not present an immediate threat to society.

So says much of the world, including lgbt lobbies and you, but yes it does, it destroys the core fabric of society. However according to God, homosexuality is wicked and detestable.
In fact the biggest damage done against homosexuals is your idea, some homosexuals see that and think ok if some Christians agree with society’s view it is probably ok.

Why do you keep making our disagreement about accepting homosexuality into the church? I am talking about non-believing homosexuals outside the church.

As I said homosexual advocates have correctly been rejected by the church because they are homosexual advocates and not believers. The church is for believers. You seem to be objecting to church only being for believers.

David Blankenhorn, founder of Institute for American Values

His definition differs from God’s
2 Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

So is the answer to make all this behavior illegal?

Was that all you got out of brodav9’s post?

Duckybill actually this thread is not about homosexuals but homosexuality, one is a label for a person, the other is a label for an orientation/activity.

In fact the issue isnt primarily about either, but a rebellion against God by some in the world and sadly some in the church.

 

[aspen]

BMS - why are you continuing to muddy the water? The issue is - are Christians called to enforce God's laws on nonbelievers? The answer is simply NO

 

[brightmorningstar]

Aspen2,
Why do you continue to muddy the waters and avoid the issue?
We have been through this before! You vote to enforce God's law against paedophilia and abortion dont you? So you vote to enforce God's laws on nonbelievers. Dont say you dont.
Your argument has been to suggest that homosexuality unlike things like paedophilia and abortion is different because it does not directly harm. Whilst it is argued the homosexuality does direct harm as well, they are still all against God's purposes. So you do vote to enforce God's laws on nonbelievers, you just want to make an exception for homosexuality.

 

[aspen]

Aspen2,
Why do you continue to muddy the waters and avoid the issue?
We have been through this before! You vote to enforce God's law against paedophilia and abortion dont you? So you vote to enforce God's laws on nonbelievers. Dont say you dont.
Your argument has been to suggest that homosexuality unlike things like paedophilia and abortion is different because it does not directly harm. Whilst it is argued the homosexuality does direct harm as well, they are still all against God's purposes. So you do vote to enforce God's laws on nonbelievers, you just want to make an exception for homosexuality.

Your logic is flawed. Just because society shares God's opinion regarding pedophilia doesn't mean society is enforcing God's law. A similar example of flawed logic might look like America using a prison system to punish prisoners - just because the rest of the world also uses prisons for the same purpose does not mean they are using an American prison system.

Adults having sex with children is not healthy for society, regardless of whether or not God disapproves of it. Homosexuality and pedophilia are not the same thing.

 

[dragonfly]

Adults having sex with children is not healthy for society, regardless of whether or not God disapproves of it. Homosexuality and pedophilia are not the same thing.

Sexual immorality per se is unhealthy for society, no matter the age of the participants. God sees to that. For health, follow Maker's Instructions.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead. Acts 17.

 

[aspen]

Sexual immorality per se is unhealthy for society, no matter the age of the participants. God sees to that. For health, follow Maker's Instructions.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead. Acts 17.

It sounds like you are asking nonbelievers to repent of their sinful behavior - why? Are nonstudents required to complete graduate dissertations too? How about Protestants receiving the Catholic version of the Eucharist?

Of course all people are called to repent - turn their gaze from selfishness towards God - not adopt the laws of a God they do not believe in.

The abuse of Homosexuals is for the most part a myth,homosexuality is fairly well accepted in America,a cursory glance at the statistics will indicate that they are actually doing quite well in the areas of finance and carreer,this myth would have us beleive that Homosexuals are being beaten in the streets,that church members are coming out of their churches on Sunday morning to throw rocks at Homosexuals as they pass....that the life of a Homosexual is one of constant persecution and abuse...apart from the occasional media driven sensation of a pastor or a single church in a nation of some 300 million people saying anything at all against it they have little to chew on,but with the attitude of zero tolerance for dissent a little is enough for them and this myth is carried on.They use the same guilty until proven innocent tactics that the are in used in regard to race,by virtue of being white one must prove they are not a racist by total submission to all demands of non whites...likewise christians,in order to prove they are not "hate filled Homophobes" must submit to all demands...nice racket isn't it.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/25/12402620-teen-lesbian-couple-found-shot-in-texas-park?lite

Hmm...yes, nice racket, alright.

 

[dragonfly]

It sounds like you are asking nonbelievers to repent of their sinful behavior - why?

Because that's how they get saved from eternal destruction.

And because real repentance is a spiritual event which changes a person's heart for ever. True penitence is a beautiful thing in God's sight.


And, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.


I know what you're saying - that idolaters should be left to continue their idolatry in peace and not be trammelled with trifles like eternal death - but that's not fair to them as God sees fairness, because He has made an eternal sacrifice on their behalf, in the hope of saving them from His wrath. I also recognise that each Christian has their own unique blend of ministries from God, but nevertheless, if Christ is in us, we are expected to live out His life to others - and He was the Apostle, Evangelist, Healer, Teacher, Preacher, a Lover and Shepherd (of souls), a Servant of all.

Your comment about how the message is presented is very relevant. But, we do have to present the message. And it's not just words. Sinners wanted to be with Jesus because He loved them. But, His love changed them without a word. Unless our love is like His, it fails to represent Him properly.

 

[aspen]

Because that's how they get saved from eternal destruction.

I have never seen a person become a Christian because they adopted God's laws before they believed He exists.

And because real repentance is a spiritual event which changes a person's heart for ever. True penitence is a beautiful thing in God's sight.

Agreed, but true repentance is not simply a change in behavior stemming from legislation.

And, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

But if you do not believe in God, how can you fear Him?

I know what you're saying - that idolaters should be left to continue their idolatry in peace and not be trammelled with trifles like eternal death - but that's not fair to them as God sees fairness, because He has made an eternal sacrifice on their behalf, in the hope of saving them from His wrath.

Ok, but the same case can be made for all the children who will receive coal in their stockings this Christmas because of their lack of faith in Santa Claus - I am not meaning to be crude - it is the same circumstance for people who do not believe in God or Santa.

I also recognise that each Christian has their own unique blend of ministries from God, but nevertheless, if Christ is in us, we are expected to live out His life to others - and He was the Apostle, Evangelist, Healer, Teacher, Preacher, a Lover and Shepherd (of souls), a Servant of all.

I absolutely agree. All I am saying is that effective witnessing is personal, not legislative.

Your comment about how the message is presented is very relevant. But, we do have to present the message. And it's not just words. Sinners wanted to be with Jesus because He loved them. But, His love changed them without a word. Unless our love is like His, it fails to represent Him properly.

I totally agree. Witnessing is demonstrated through personal relationships - words are only needed to answer questions.

 

[brightmorningstar]

aspen2,

Your logic is flawed. Just because society shares God's opinion regarding pedophilia doesn't mean society is enforcing God's law.

My logic is sound, if two several things are wrong then it is sound to have a consistent approach to them all.
Now the question to you concerned why you would vote for these examples, it wasn’t about how society sees it. Once again you haven’t addressed the question. And I don’t even agree with your tangential answer. I am saying ‘God’s purposes’ and you are saying ‘God’s laws’; for a believer any law that is in line with God’s purposes/laws is God’s, not society’s. Society didn’t create the universe from a void.

Adults having sex with children is not healthy for society, regardless of whether or not God disapproves of it.

The benchmark for believers is whether God approves or disproves. Your view is society’s and not God’s. Our view is God’s.

Homosexuality and pedophilia are not the same thing.

That’s what the world and society says, but they are both against God’s purposes. As dragonfly has affirmed.

I would also address your responses to dragonfly.

It sounds like you are asking nonbelievers to repent of their sinful behavior – why?

Well that is part of the gospel message of course, which surely you aren’t disputing, but under the umbrella of democracy we are asking for society to accept the best choices which are God’s purposes.

I have never seen a person become a Christian because they adopted God's laws before they believed He exists.

Again that’s not what dragonfly said, that’s you twisting what dragonfly said. Dragonfly said. Repentance is part of the gospel so it is part of believing. Lies seduce, the gospel convicts.

We are not saying the gospel is legislative at all, but rather a personal revelation of the truth and love of God. It is you who is implying its legislative as though you are happy with the gospel as long as repentance doesn’t put people off it. The answer to that is if people find repentance too big an obstacle then they won’t get the gospel. For most who Christ is and what He has done is the thing that makes people resigned to worship God as a new creation in Him and repent, even if after a struggle.

And this one of the main problems with the homosexual issue. When the inclusivechurch issued a statement that the gospel couldnt be good news for homosexuals if it prohibits homosexual relations, it meant they dont believe the gospel. The deception of course was that people still assumed they had the gospel and treated their view as another Christian interpretaion.

aspen2,

Adults having sex with children is not healthy for society, regardless of whether or not God disapproves of it.

The LGBT community and supporters might not agree with you there. For example I believe leading LGBT campaigner Peter Tatchell said in 2007 in the Guardian Newspaper

“The positive nature of some child-adult relations is not confined to non-Western cultures. Several of my friends – gay and straight, male and female – had sex with adults from the ages of 9 to 13. None feel they were abused. All say it was their conscious choice and gave them great joy. While it may be impossible to condone paedophilia, it is time society acknowledged the truth that not all sex involving children is unwanted, abusive and harmful.”

So you see as soon as one starts thinking in terms of lgbt one is already confused, No, it is not healthy for society because God disapproves of it

 

[Strat]

The sin doesn't matter anymore...we are all victims now...all Dogs go to heaven....except those Dogs who say not all Dogs go to heaven.