Homosexuality

[JackSafari]

...
You know, I occasionally relax on the patio on a clear night (we get a LOT of such nights here in Townsville) either alone or with a friend and we look at the night sky in awe and speak of the wonders of this endless cosmos that we see spread out before us. The mind boggles at the thought that even the closest objects other than the planets are trillions and trillions of miles away. And, we attribute all of those boundless universes that stretch on forever and ever and ever to a Creator, known in the Bible as 'God'. And yet, we have trivialized this Creator God to be no more than a small-minded, snivelling, wimpy version of US! That such a Being who defies any attempt to even BEGIN to describe Him would be in the least bit concerned as to who is being intimate with whom is surely doing such an Almighty God a serious injustice! Why others can't see this is almost as mind-boggling to me as are the wonders of space. I actually find it embarrassing that Christians have such a pathetic mindset of God.

And so many parents that have gay children accept\love their children unconditionally, so it does give one pause to wonder, why some would perceive God to be far more judgmental and narrow minded than loving parents that don't place conditions on acceptance.

This is my perception of what Jesus would do\say

Man: Jesus, I am a homosexual. Can you save me by making me a heterosexual?
Jesus: I shall not take away a gift God has given you. Live as you are, for you have already been saved.

 

[marksman]

While I told you previously that God has never spoken to me ...what it I'm mistaken and am now wondering whether God HAS spoken to me through a small voice deep inside?

It is not for me to judge whether God has spoken to you or not. I will leave that to God as when I stand before the judgment seat I will be asked about what I did, not what you did.

What if I was to tell you that God HAS instilled into me a need to stand up for people that are generally despised by Christians?

God does not tell us to stand up for people who are despised by Christians. The only rationale for a calling is the love of God that reaches out to those that are lost and our response when he calls us.

I have never heard anyone say they are doing what they are doing because God told them to stand up for whoever. Most of the time they say God gave me a love for them and I wanted to go and share his love and the gospel with them.

As for Teen Challenge, while I don't know a great deal about it I would guess that the training you would have received would have had the usual Christian biases connected with it.

If that is the case, you should not be making a judgment about them, particularly when those judgements are cynical and unloving. FYI, Teen Challenge was started by David Wilkerson, an American who saw the need on the streets of New York and decided at God's call to start offering help to get kids off drugs.

His methods were entirely new for the church so there was NO biases and the American Government said that Teen Challenge was the most successful drug rehabilitation in the country with a success rate of 86%. The next best was about 15%.

And FYI, the training I received opened my eyes as I patrolled the seedy streets and dives of Melbourne, seeing 13 y.o. prostitutes and drug addicts and all manner of sexual perversion between midnight and 6am. Plus I was knocked out as a result of challenging a warlock plying his ways on the street.

Until you have walked the walk I do not think that you have any right to pass judgment on them.

And, as mentioned previously, if you actually researched the scriptures for yourself you would become quite enlightened with regard to this subject. But, I keep forgetting, to dare question the traditional teachings of 'the Church' is regarded by many as heresy.

The truth is, you need to research the scriptures, not just parrot the the standard line put out by the pink mafia. Until you realise that most of what they say is lies, you cannot see the wood for the trees.

As I said, pastors come to me for advice so I guess I must be "enlightened" in their eyes and it must mean the traditional teachings are inadequate so they want "non-traditional" teachings which I am happy to pass on.

 

[KCKID]

Hi JB,

One of the difficulties in this particular discussion, is that a large part of the church-going population imagine that if Jesus didn't mention a topic specifically, then He's okay with whatever modern man decides he wants to do. These 'believers' do not realise that Jesus, being God incarnate, still hates the same things about sin and idolatry which He always did, and His silence in the NT does not imply any reversal or change in what pleases Him. On the things which He changed, He universally raised the standard. Nothing upon which He had made a pronouncement, in any way set the bar lower than it had been.

Well, I can't speak for others but I have NEVER implied that because Jesus never said anything about homosexuality that He therefore approved if it. The facts are, however, that Jesus did NOT say anything about homosexuality. And yet, given that homosexuality has caused so much angst and division in His Church, one might reasonably assume that He SHOULD have said something about it if it had been that important. But, He didn't and all of the scurrying around to come up with excuses as to what his thoughts REALLY were on the subject can change that. Jesus did not say anything - for or against - homosexuality and that's that! But, He DID say negative things about divorce and remarriage since this leads to what is termed as 'adultery' which was punishable by death. And, those with eyes will notice that the Christian Church, for the most part, welcomes divorcees/remarrieds in its membership with open arms. Double standards/hypocrisy anyone . . .?

 

[JackSafari]

-- Nice try but one here has implied that "homosexuality leads people to sexually abuse children."

Let's stick with YOUR words, shall we?

You said earlier that "God is not concerned with sexual activities between consenting adults." Then why would He have an issue with sex between a 40 year old man and 16 year old girl? After all, the Bible doesn't warn against it. And even if it did you have already shown you don't take the Bible seriously on matters of sexual activity anyway.
The age of consent in The Netherlands is 16 so God would be fine with it then, right?


But you also chose to completely skiped over the other points I brought up.

I undersand why, but if your point is correct you should easily be able to address these points, as well.
After all, they would be "consenting adults" - which seems to be your only yardstick for acceptability.

So again I say, according to your "consenting adults" standard for whether God accepts it or not, that would mean these would be acceptable to God too:


-- "Consenting adults" who are married to others, but become sexually active with each other.
I know the 7th Commandment says "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery" but if it is just the body and not the heart, what's the problem, right?
You have already stated point blank that you feel God has no issue with what transpires sexually "between consenting adults."


-- If three or four "consenting adults" "feel love" for one another, they will then be able to participate in sex with each other all at once and God will be fine with it, right?
After all, the Bible doesn't specifically speak against it and - according to your own words - God has no problem with what "consenting adults" do sexually.


-- If a brother or sister or father and son or mother and daughter who are "consenting adults," choose to have sex, there should be no issue at all to God, correct? After all, according to you, He has no problem with sexual activity between "consenting adults" and thy obviously love each other, right?
(And please don't say it is wrong because of the risk of pregnancy and birth defects, Do you really want to recount the statistical damages of sex between men?)


-- And what of a "consenting adult" woman who chooses to see sexual gratification at the hands of an animal? If the animal is male and is a willful participant, who are you going to condemn in this situation? I know the Bible speaks specifically about this, but again you have shown you feel that the Bible doesn't really apply in areas of consentual sex, right?


You were just cracking a joke earlier about people who feel anything other than the missionary is "deviant sex."

Why then can't the same jokes be made about people who oppose what I just listed?

If your statement on God's opinion is correct, it should be very easy for you to justify what I have just listed.

So I ask with in all seriousness, using your standard of "consenting adults" and what you said God would "get a good chuckle" over, what could possibly be wrong in God's eyes with what I just listed? Especially when you have ruled that what the scripture says on the topic is null and void.

I am asking seriously, Jack...



.

No matter what unlikely\unusual circumstances you might want to include, my answer remains the same, IMHO, God is not concerned with the sexual activities between consenting adults.

 

[KCKID]

It is not for me to judge whether God has spoken to you or not. I will leave that to God as when I stand before the judgment seat I will be asked about what I did, not what you did.

Nice bit of rhetoric. By the way, I don't doubt that you're a sincere Christian. I DO question your beliefs, however.

God does not tell us to stand up for people who are despised by Christians. The only rationale for a calling is the love of God that reaches out to those that are lost and our response when he calls us.

Well, more the love of Jesus. I see hardly any example of love from the God of the Old Testament. By the way, the very concept of Christians despising another is anti-Christ.

I have never heard anyone say they are doing what they are doing because God told them to stand up for whoever. Most of the time they say God gave me a love for them and I wanted to go and share his love and the gospel with them.

I don't have an issue of sharing the Gospel with people but you appear to first determine who those are that you consider are 'lost'. Why is a homosexual especially 'lost' and in particular need of the Gospel? Their 'sin' appears to be none other than that they are sexually oriented to those of the same gender. Heterosexuals are sexually oriented to those of the opposite gender. Is this really the big deal that you're making it?

If that is the case, you should not be making a judgment about them, particularly when those judgements are cynical and unloving. FYI, Teen Challenge was started by David Wilkerson, an American who saw the need on the streets of New York and decided at God's call to start offering help to get kids off drugs.

I was wrong to say that I didn't know much about Teen Challenge. I somehow didn't make the connection at the time of posting with David Wilkerson, Nicky Cruz and, of course, the book and the Pat Boone movie, The Cross and the Switchblade, that gave us the history of Teen Challenge. I don't know why ...my bad. I also enjoyed the Nicky Cruz book, Run Baby Run, that I read many years ago. Plus, of course, Beyond The Cross and the Switchblade by David Wilkerson. That these folks did some very commendable things for people who needed their help, however, does not somehow make homosexuality 'a sin' that requires the Gospel to 'cleanse' them and make them 'straight'.

His methods were entirely new for the church so there was NO biases and the American Government said that Teen Challenge was the most successful drug rehabilitation in the country with a success rate of 86%. The next best was about 15%.

Yes, that's right. As I agreed, Teen Challenge were/are certainly a team that put their efforts where their mouth was/is. Are they still active?

And FYI, the training I received opened my eyes as I patrolled the seedy streets and dives of Melbourne, seeing 13 y.o. prostitutes and drug addicts and all manner of sexual perversion between midnight and 6am. Plus I was knocked out as a result of challenging a warlock plying his ways on the street.

And, I commend you for having done so. Believe it or not, since we don't agree on specifics pertaining to homosexuality, for 8 years I was the coordinator of a Soup Kitchen that we took to the streets every week here in Townsville. This was when I was very active with the 7th-Day Adventist Church. Yes, we too ran into all kinds of people 'in need' while cruising on 'their turf'.

Until you have walked the walk I do not think that you have any right to pass judgment on them.

I never intended to pass judgment on Teen Challenge if that's what you believe I was doing. Any Christian group that rolls up its sleeves to help those in need are 'okay' in my book. I'm sure that I was more referencing the biases connected with the traditional but false teaching of the Bible itself with regard to the topic that we're discussing. Helping out those in need does not necessarily equate to an accurate belief as to what the scriptures might say on the topic.

The truth is, you need to research the scriptures, not just parrot the the standard line put out by the pink mafia. Until you realise that most of what they say is lies, you cannot see the wood for the trees.

The truth is, that's most unfair as well as most inaccurate when describing me. Until I arrived at this forum I'd never heard of the Pink Mafia. Other than references from you I still have no idea who they are. I haven't even looked them up on the web as of yet. I'm my own man, marksman, and I can assure you that I'm not easily influenced by anything that doesn't stand up to my logical and intellectual approach on issues.

As I said, pastors come to me for advice so I guess I must be "enlightened" in their eyes and it must mean the traditional teachings are inadequate so they want "non-traditional" teachings which I am happy to pass on.

As said, I don't doubt that you are sincere as well as being a good person. This, unfortunately, does not necessarily equate to 'you are right' when it comes to this subject.

Abominations anyone? While Christians are busy labeling a group of people who engage in certain behaviors as "abominations", I wonder if he/she realizes how many times over they could rightfully be called an abomination.

Divorce/Adultery

Deuteronomy 24:1-4
"When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a bill of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house, and if she goes and becomes another man's wife, and the latter husband dislikes her and writes her a bill of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies, who took her to be his wife, then her former husband, who sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the LORD, and you shall not bring guilt upon the land which the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance."

Ezekiel 22:11 One commits abomination with his neighbor's wife; another lewdly defiles his daughter-in-law; another in you defiles his sister, his father's daughter.

Leviticus 7:21 And if any one touches an unclean thing, whether the uncleanness of man or an unclean beast or any unclean abomination, and then eats of the flesh of the sacrifice of the LORD's peace offerings, that person shall be cut off from his people."

Love of Money
Jeremiah 6:15
"Were they ashamed when they committed abomination? No, they were not at all ashamed; they did not know how to blush. Therefore they shall fall among those who fall; at the time that I punish them, they shall be overthrown," says the LORD. (Greed for unjust gain.)

Jeremiah 8:12 Were they ashamed when they committed abomination? No, they were not at all ashamed; they did not know how to blush. Therefore they shall fall among the fallen; when I punish them, they shall be overthrown, says the LORD. (Greed for unjust gain.)

Luke 16:15: But he said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts; for what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

Dietary Abominations
Leviticus 7:18 If any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offering is eaten on the third day, he who offers it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be credited to him; it shall be an abomination, and he who eats of it shall bear his iniquity.

Leviticus 11:10-19 -
(6) "But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is an abomination to you. They shall remain an abomination to you; of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall have in abomination. Everything in the waters that has not fins and scales is an abomination to you."

"And these you shall have in abomination among the birds, they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, the vulture, the osprey, the kite, the falcon according to its kind, every raven according to its kind, the ostrich, the nighthawk, the sea gull, the hawk according to its kind, the owl, the cormorant, the ibis, the water hen, the pelican, the carrion vulture, the stork, the heron according to its kind, the hoopoe, and the bat."

Leviticus 11:20
"All winged insects that go upon all fours are an abomination to you."

Leviticus 11:23
"But all other winged insects which have four feet are an abomination to you."

Leviticus 11:41
"Every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth is an abomination; it shall not be eaten."

Leviticus 11:42
"Whatever goes on its belly, and whatever goes on all fours, or whatever has many feet, all the swarming things that swarm upon the earth, you shall not eat; for they are an abomination."

Leviticus 19:7
"If it is eaten at all on the third day, it is an abomination."

Isaiah 66:17
"Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating swine's flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, says the LORD."

Abominations to Other Peoples

Genesis 43:32 They served him by himself, and them by themselves, and the Egyptians who ate with him by themselves, because the Egyptians might not eat bread with the Hebrews, for that is an abomination to the Egyptians.

Genesis 46:34 you shall say, 'Your servants have been keepers of cattle from our youth even until now, both we and our fathers,' in order that you may dwell in the land of Goshen; for every shepherd is an abomination to the Egyptians."

Proverbs 13:19 A desire fulfilled is sweet to the soul; but to turn away from evil is an abomination to fools.

Proverbs 29:27 - (2) An unjust man is an abomination to the righteous, but he whose way is straight is an abomination to the wicked

Improper Behaviors
Deuteronomy 22:5 "A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God."

Deuteronomy 23:18 "You shall not bring the hire of a harlot, or the wages of a dog, into the house of the LORD your God in payment for any vow; for both of these are an abomination to the LORD your God."

Judges 20:6 "And I took my concubine and cut her in pieces, and sent her throughout all the country of the inheritance of Israel; for they have committed abomination and wantonness in Israel." (Referring to the rape and murder of the concubine of a Levite who was a guest.)

Proverbs 3:32 for the perverse man is an abomination to the LORD, but the upright are in his confidence.

Proverbs 6:16-19 There are six things which the LORD hates, seven which are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and a man who sows discord among brothers.

Proverbs 11:20 Men of perverse mind are an abomination to the LORD, but those of blameless ways are his delight.

Proverbs 12:22 Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, but those who act faithfully are his delight.

Proverbs 16:5 Every one who is arrogant is an abomination to the LORD; be assured, he will not go unpunished.

Proverbs 17:15 He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD.

Proverbs 28:9 If one turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination.

Isaiah 41:24 Behold, you are nothing, and your work is naught; an abomination is he who chooses you. (Worshipers of people who set themselves up as gods.)

Malachi 2:11 Judah has been faithless, and abomination has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah has profaned the sanctuary of the LORD, which he loves, and has married the daughter of a foreign god.

Dishonest Trade
Deuteronomy 25:13-16 "You shall not have in your bag two kinds of weights, a large and a small. You shall not have in your house two kinds of measures, a large and a small. A full and just weight you shall have, a full and just measure you shall have; that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you. For all who do such things, all who act dishonestly, are an abomination to the LORD your God."

Proverbs 11:1 A false balance is an abomination to the LORD, but a just weight is his delight.

Proverbs 20:10 Diverse weights and diverse measures are both alike an abomination to the LORD.

Proverbs 20:23 Diverse weights are an abomination to the LORD, and false scales are not good

Unspecified Wickedness

Proverbs 8:7 for my mouth will utter truth; wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

Proverbs 15:9 The way of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD, but he loves him who pursues righteousness.

Proverbs 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD, the words of the pure are pleasing to him.

Proverbs 16:12 It is an abomination to kings to do evil, for the throne is established by righteousness.

Proverbs 24:9 The devising of folly is sin, and the scoffer is an abomination to men.

Jeremiah 2:7 And I brought you into a plentiful land to enjoy its fruits and its good things. But when you came in you defiled my land, and made my heritage an abomination.

Ezekiel 18:10-13 "If he begets a son who is a robber, a shedder of blood, who does none of these duties, but eats upon the mountains, defiles his neighbor's wife, oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore the pledge, lifts up his eyes to the idols, commits abomination, lends at interest, and takes increase; shall he then live? He shall not live. He has done all these
abominable things; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon himself."

Revelation 21:27: But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life

Improper Worship/Sacrifice

Deuteronomy 7:25 The graven images of their gods you shall burn with fire; you shall not covet the silver or the gold that is on them, or take it for yourselves, lest you be ensnared by it; for it is an abomination to the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 17:1 "You shall not sacrifice to the LORD your God an ox or a sheep in which is a blemish, any defect whatever; for that is an abomination to the LORD your God."

Deuteronomy 18:10-12 "When you come into the land which the LORD your God gives you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD; and because of these abominable practices the LORD your God is driving them out before you."

Deuteronomy 27:15 "'Cursed be the man who makes a graven or molten image, an abomination to the LORD, a thing made by the hands of a craftsman, and sets it up in secret.'"

1 Kings 11:5 For Solomon went after Ash'toreth the goddess of the Sido'nians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. (Foreign god who demanded human sacrifice.)

1 Kings 11:7 - (2) Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountain east of Jerusalem. (Foreign gods who demanded human sacrifice.)

2 Kings 23:13 - (3) And the king defiled the high places that were east of Jerusalem, to the south of the mount of corruption, which Solomon the king of Israel had built for Ash'toreth the abomination of the Sido'nians, and for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. (Foreign gods who
demanded human sacrifice.)

Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD, but the prayer of the upright is his delight.

Proverbs 21:27 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination; how much more when he brings it with evil intent.

Isaiah 1:13 Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and sabbath and the calling of assemblies--I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.

Isaiah 44:19 No one considers, nor is there knowledge or discernment to say, "Half of it I burned in the fire, I also baked bread on its coals, I roasted flesh and have
eaten; and shall I make the residue of it an abomination? Shall I fall down before a block of wood?"

Jeremiah 32:35 They built the high places of Ba'al in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Daniel 11:31 Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the continual burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the continual burnt offering is taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

And, of course, our old favorite which is the only 'abomination' we care about; Lying with a Man as with a Woman

Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi KC,

That is to say, no thought is given to whether the sex in itself is right or wrong.

Please read the whole of Leviticus 18 and then tell us that 'no thought is given to whether the sex in itself is right or wrong'?

You don't seem (I say 'seem') to have any idea what sexual behaviour does to the inner man when it is carried out between two people whom God has stated should not have a sexual relationship with each other. There is a very real difference in the emotional health of those who have God's permission to be in a sexual relationship with each other, and those who do not have God's permission.

The idea that sex can be separated from the people, like a plate of food, is utterly naive. Every sexual advance by one person is an unspoken request for the other person to surrender something. Even a look can be defiling to the person who receives it, just as a look can be health to their soul.

In all your logical and intellectual assessments, you are never mentioning what God says about the soul - the inner man - and mental health. These all are related to the spiritual well-being of a person, and the shortest route to the spiritual unwell-being of a person is ungodly sexual behaviour.

You may wish to argue about that, but the Bible is extremely clear.

Your moan about churches accepting divorcees may have some validity, but in many divorces there is an innocent party. Does your logic not extend to understanding that the teaching of Jesus on divorce, does not hold them to celibacy for the rest of their lives? Remarriage was expected.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Hi JB,

One of the difficulties in this particular discussion, is that a large part of the church-going population imagine that if Jesus didn't mention a topic specifically, then He's okay with whatever modern man decides he wants to do. These 'believers' do not realise that Jesus, being God incarnate, still hates the same things about sin and idolatry which He always did, and His silence in the NT does not imply any reversal or change in what pleases Him. On the things which He changed, He universally raised the standard. Nothing upon which He had made a pronouncement, in any way set the bar lower than it had been.

Greetings dragonfly. I agree with you 100%. SHALOM

 

[KCKID]

Greetings dragonfly. I agree with you 100%. SHALOM

Already addressed and dismissed.

Hi KC,


Please read the whole of Leviticus 18 and then tell us that 'no thought is given to whether the sex in itself is right or wrong'?

Entering into a debate about the contexts of Leviticus, Deuteronomy, etc. through 2013 eyes is pointless ...for both you and the rest of us. Let it alone, dragonfly. Those books are lost in the mists of time just as they should be.

You don't seem (I say 'seem') to have any idea what sexual behaviour does to the inner man when it is carried out between two people whom God has stated should not have a sexual relationship with each other. There is a very real difference in the emotional health of those who have God's permission to be in a sexual relationship with each other, and those who do not have God's permission.

We need permission from God (i.e. from a book written by men about 'their' version of God) to be attracted to and to perhaps fall in love with someone? Now I've heard everything . . .

You seem to be writing your own Bible as you go, dragonfly.

The idea that sex can be separated from the people, like a plate of food, is utterly naive. Every sexual advance by one person is an unspoken request for the other person to surrender something. Even a look can be defiling to the person who receives it, just as a look can be health to their soul.

Two people that are attracted to one another and who may even choose to spend the rest of their lives together would not be remotely interested in what your opinions are, dragonfly. Sorry.

In all your logical and intellectual assessments, you are never mentioning what God says about the soul - the inner man - and mental health. These all are related to the spiritual well-being of a person, and the shortest route to the spiritual unwell-being of a person is ungodly sexual behaviour.

You may wish to argue about that, but the Bible is extremely clear.

It might be clear to you but not to me and perhaps not to many people. You seem to be taking the Bible to a whole new set of extremes, dragonfly. We're to love God with all of our heart, mind and soul and to love our neighbor as ourself. You're making this far too complex. Where does this other stuff fit into the simple message of John 3:16, for instance?

Your moan about churches accepting divorcees may have some validity, but in many divorces there is an innocent party. Does your logic not extend to understanding that the teaching of Jesus on divorce, does not hold them to celibacy for the rest of their lives? Remarriage was expected.

Ooooh, I can't let you get away with that. Only in the event of the death of a spouse is one free to remarry according to the Bible ...indeed, from Jesus Himself! Remember, the one who never said a word about homosexuality ...? Anyway, while divorce is permissible for infidelity ...remarriage is not as long as one party remains alive. And, it stands to reason why not. As long as one of the parties remains alive their remarried partner is guilty of the sin of adultery against the original spouse when she/he remarries. Even today many former married men or women are most unhappy in the knowledge that their former wife or husband is now intimate with someone else. That's understandable. And, many of these modern situations of divorce did not occur because either party was unfaithful anyway but merely because one party became bored with the other.

Incidentally, why did you refer to my bringing up divorce and remarriage and acceptance by the Church as 'a moan'? I personally don't care who divorces and remarries. That is entirely their own business. The reason I brought it up was to highlight and emphasize the double standards/hypocrisy of the Christian Church where it gladly accepts one set of blatant 'sinners' without question while it literally froths at the mouth whenever homosexuality is mentioned. Um ...how come when I raise a pertinent point it's considered to be a 'moan' but when homosexuals are continually being torn apart and demonized by such as yourself it's not a 'moan'?

 

[KingJ]

18:22 — You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.
Leviticus 20:13 — If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.

For conservative Christians these texts seem pretty cut and dry. These texts are talking about same-sex practices. The offense is called an abomination, and the prescribed penalty is death. This all sounds pretty straightforward, and it sounds pretty bad. But what does this text mean in its own historical context?

The Holiness Code of Leviticus prohibits male same-sex practices because of religious considerations, not because of sexual ones. The concern is to keep Israel from taking part in Gentile practices. Same-sex practices are forbidden because they are associated with pagan activities (i.e., cultic prostitution), with idolatry and with Gentile identity. The argument in Leviticus is religious, not ethical or moral. That is to say, no thought is given to whether the sex in itself is right or wrong. All concern is for keeping Jewish identity strong.

You think God gave the Jews laws like this through prophets to keep for purely an ''identity'' ROFLMAO

If God wanted only an ''identity'' He would have told them to wear pink or chop their one finger off.

It is not a ''religious consideration'', it is an acknowledgement of what is an abomination to God. Can you be any more ignorant ? ''If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination!!!! (not contravention of Jewish dress code )

The Jews were different because they were given and obeyed God's laws. Pagans did not. God's laws pleased Him. They still apply today. Did He waste His time getting His prophets to pen them? If God hated murder, He STILL does. It is only the consequence of disobedience that we can have grace for in Jesus. But as Paul says it is not a license to sin. We need to pay EXTRA special attention to those laws that God considered worthy of DEATH don't you think?

Ooooh, I can't let you get away with that. Only in the event of the death of a spouse is one free to remarry according to the Bible ...indeed, from Jesus Himself! Remember, the one who never said a word about homosexuality ...?

You are wrong. Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Remember, the one who never said a word about homosexuality ...?

You sure? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (like the one you quoted above Lev 20:13)

3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together (male and female) let not man put asunder.

Seems Jesus is being very clear about God approving only of heterosexual marriage.

 

[marksman]

Nice bit of rhetoric. By the way, I don't doubt that you're a sincere Christian. I DO question your beliefs, however.

It is not rhetoric. it is fact. As for questioning my beliefs, it does say in scripture that iron sharpens iron. I like my beliefs challenged as it challenges me to search the scriptures to see if I have missed anything, but I don't worry about challenges that are opinion.

I see hardly any example of love from the God of the Old Testament. By the way, the very concept of Christians despising another is anti-Christ.

That is due to the fact that you do not know God or the message of the Old Testament.

Your comment about despising another is not backed up by scripture. Jesus made it very clear he despised the Pharisees and Sadducees and the people who used the Temple to make money.

I don't have an issue of sharing the Gospel with people but you appear to first determine who those are that you consider are 'lost'. Why is a homosexual especially 'lost' and in particular need of the Gospel? Their 'sin' appears to be none other than that they are sexually oriented to those of the same gender. Heterosexuals are sexually oriented to those of the opposite gender. Is this really the big deal that you're making it?

Once again you are putting your own spin on my words. My comment indicates that God decides who is lost by the calling people are given to go and reach them. I never said homosexuals are especially lost, you did and everyone needs the gospel because we have ALL sinned and come short of God's glory.

I make a big deal of anything that God calls me to. if I didn't, it would be no good calling me. That applies to any calling and I like nothing more than people telling us how God called them and what is happening in response to that call.

That these folks did some very commendable things for people who needed their help, however, does not somehow make homosexuality 'a sin' that requires the Gospel to 'cleanse' them and make them 'straight'.

I never said it did. I merely set out the rationale behind Teen Challenge. Once again your spin on my words.

Yes, that's right. As I agreed, Teen Challenge were/are certainly a team that put their efforts where their mouth was/is. Are they still active?

Since their small beginnings in New York City they have grown and grown and grown and grown. We support financially the local branch of it and there is one in every state in Australia.

I'm sure that I was more referencing the biases connected with the traditional but false teaching of the Bible itself with regard to the topic that we're discussing.

Bias is often in the eye of the beholder and such a statement as this one suggests that you are not biased but everyone else is. If that were not the case, you would not have been so quick to condemn Teen Challenge, especially as you can find out about most things very quickly on the internet, so ignorance is no defence.

The truth is, that's most unfair as well as most inaccurate when describing me. Until I arrived at this forum I'd never heard of the Pink Mafia. Other than references from you I still have no idea who they are. I haven't even looked them up on the web as of yet. I'm my own man, marksman, and I can assure you that I'm not easily influenced by anything that doesn't stand up to my logical and intellectual approach on issues.

if you do not know who the pink mafia is, a term used all round the world to describe militant homosexuals who are determined to silence the church, you are behind the eight ball when discussing this subject, particularly when you want to defend homosexuality.

Logical and intellectual approaches are irrelevant to the subject for the believer. This is a battle for the mind of the believer and a battle for truth v lies. There is only one answer to it and that is the word of God. Unless you are well grounded in what it says you will be arguing whilst on sinking sand. The pink mafia will tear you to shreds because satan knows scripture very well so he uses it and bastardises it to suit his agenda. Coming back to them with what is logical or intellectual is like trying to fight a tank with a bow and arrow.

As said, I don't doubt that you are sincere as well as being a good person. This, unfortunately, does not necessarily equate to 'you are right' when it comes to this subject.

I am neither sincere or good. I am a soldier of Christ who has decided to take up the fight for the truth. As we know, evil triumphs when good people do nothing. I have never been a nothing person and never will.

And your last comment is loaded to say the least as it implies that no one has the right to be right. That is what the devil wants you to believe in his attempt to silence those who know the truth. My bible teaches me that the Holy Spirit leads us into ALL TRUTH. Not some. ALL and I know there are many Christians out there who believe it is arrogant to suggest that you have been shown the truth by the Holy Spirit.

I don't subscribe to that idea and I know when the Holy Spirit is talking to me and showing me the truth, Add to that much training, copious amounts of reading, being in ministry in this area and being called upon to teach the church regarding this subject and I have no hesitation in thinking just maybe I do know something that you don't.

If I don't then training for anything or studying is a complete waste of time.

 

[mjrhealth]

Again here we see the hearts of men exposed before all to see. If I was a murderer it would be OK to be in church, or a thief, a liar, an adulterer, all ok but a homosexual, God forbid we should let one of them into teh church. Man had decided that they are the worst of all sinners yet if you asked Jesus, it is those who claim to be perfect and who are not, those who assume they have teh right to declare who is a sinner and who is not wothout any anuthority. Again I hope for your sake that when you stand before Jesus, that you have yourself asked them for forgiveness, long before than, because than you will be exposed and nothing hid, no excuses will come, and you will see yourself as you are.

In all His love

 

[marksman]

Abominations anyone? While Christians are busy labeling a group of people who engage in certain behaviors as "abominations", I wonder if he/she realizes how many times over they could rightfully be called an abomination.

This is a ploy used regularly by the pink mafia. If I can get them off the topic I don't want them to talk about and put the spotlight onto their imperfections, it might make them shut up.

It is a bit like saying that Aboriginal deaths in custody is irrelevant because of all the child sexual abuse that takes place so we need to focus on that and not make Aboriginal deaths a big deal.

Generally known as a red herring.

 

[KingJ]

Again here we see the hearts of men exposed before all to see. If I was a murderer it would be OK to be in church, or a thief, a liar, an adulterer, all ok but a homosexual, God forbid we should let one of them into teh church. Man had decided that they are the worst of all sinners yet if you asked Jesus, it is those who claim to be perfect and who are not, those who assume they have teh right to declare who is a sinner and who is not wothout any anuthority. Again I hope for your sake that when you stand before Jesus, that you have yourself asked them for forgiveness, long before than, because than you will be exposed and nothing hid, no excuses will come, and you will see yourself as you are.

In all His love

Are you gay?

those who assume they have teh right to declare who is a sinner and who is not wothout any anuthority.

The bible clearly identifies sin you just have to read it. No assumption needed . You don't like the bible? How about you don't call yourself a Christian then?

that you have yourself asked them for forgiveness

So if my pastor is running brothels. I must ask him to forgive me for noticing it? I must forgive him for hearing from the devil and not the Holy Spirit? ROFLMAO

because than you will be exposed and nothing hid, no excuses will come, and you will see yourself as you are

I judge myself daily in fear and trembling before God. Do you? Do you think GLBT's do?

 

[KCKID]

This is a ploy used regularly by the pink mafia. If I can get them off the topic I don't want them to talk about and put the spotlight onto their imperfections, it might make them shut up.

Please don't do that. I was beginning to think that you're bigger than that. Obviously not. Someone - as someone ALWAYS does - posted the 'man lying/abomination' text of Leviticus ...the ONLY such text most people have heard of. I felt it more than appropriate to present ALL of the texts pertaining to 'abominations' so that those who think that there is only ONE 'abomination' in the entire Bible - thanks to Christians - might be shown otherwise. Please, begone with your so-called Pink Mafia. Moreover, it was not my doing that the list of 'abominations' were tagged on to my previous response to your post ...such is the posting system here. One more time - there are SCORES of abominations to God contained in the Bible, many of which are committed by Christians on a daily basis! That you feel threatened enough to hit back with slurs when someone posts legitimate scriptures that might mess up your neat little piece of 'gay ammunition' - the 'man lying' text of Leviticus - really does make me question your agenda here.

It is a bit like saying that Aboriginal deaths in custody is irrelevant because of all the child sexual abuse that takes place so we need to focus on that and not make Aboriginal deaths a big deal.

Generally known as a red herring.

What???? You were actually beginning to gain my respect . . .

I'm sorry, marksman. I can't again take you seriously. I realize that you probably don't care but you were beginning to get through to me.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi KC,

Entering into a debate about the contexts of Leviticus, Deuteronomy, etc. through 2013 eyes is pointless ...for both you and the rest of us. Let it alone, dragonfly. Those books are lost in the mists of time just as they should be.

You are your own worst enemy - to have this attitude to OT scripture. Ephesians 5:9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14.

We need permission from God (i.e. from a book written by men about 'their' version of God) to be attracted to and to perhaps fall in love with someone? Now I've heard everything . . .

You seem to be writing your own Bible as you go, dragonfly.

Umm.... and you're not.... ripping out words, phrases, pages, whole books ... just because they're OLD?

Two people that are attracted to one another and who may even choose to spend the rest of their lives together would not be remotely interested in what your opinions are, dragonfly. Sorry.

No need to apologise. You are completely transparent about your lack of interest in God's opinions - even where He has expressed them - let alone where you might have to do some actual seeking before you find them - so I have no reason whatever to expect you to 'hear' anything which God might have to say through one of HIs followers.

It might be clear to you but not to me and perhaps not to many people. You seem to be taking the Bible to a whole new set of extremes, dragonfly. We're to love God with all of our heart, mind and soul and to love our neighbor as ourself. You're making this far too complex. Where does this other stuff fit into the simple message of John 3:16, for instance?

If you apply your logical, intellectual powers to the question, I'm sure - if you use all the research material available to you in the Bible alone - you will be able to figure out the answer to that, if you want to know. Otherwise, that comment looks like you're trying to change the subject because you've never considered the validity of my point.

Ooooh, I can't let you get away with that. Only in the event of the death of a spouse is one free to remarry according to the Bible ...indeed, from Jesus Himself!

Chapter and verse, please?

Anyway, while divorce is permissible for infidelity ...remarriage is not as long as one party remains alive.

Chapter and verse please? (Don't forget the innocent party....)

And, it stands to reason why not. As long as one of the parties remains alive their remarried partner is guilty of the sin of adultery against the original spouse when she/he remarries

Well, you certainly sound like a legalist, now! Have you ever read Acts 13:38, 39, 40, 41? What d'ya think?

Even today many former married men or women are most unhappy in the knowledge that their former wife or husband is now intimate with someone else. That's understandable. And, many of these modern situations of divorce did not occur because either party was unfaithful anyway but merely because one party became bored with the other.

I'm not sure if you're talking about Christians, in that comment, but if so, all that this proves, is that men and women who claim to know God, don't really understand the spiritual issues or their solutions, even though God has provided both information and solutions, and His Spirit to enable us to search them out and receive them as appropriate.

Incidentally, why did you refer to my bringing up divorce and remarriage and acceptance by the Church as 'a moan'? I personally don't care who divorces and remarries. That is entirely their own business. The reason I brought it up was to highlight and emphasize the double standards/hypocrisy of the Christian Church where it gladly accepts one set of blatant 'sinners' without question while it literally froths at the mouth whenever homosexuality is mentioned. Um ...how come when I raise a pertinent point it's considered to be a 'moan' but when homosexuals are continually being torn apart and demonized by such as yourself it's not a 'moan'?

I think I correctly interpreted the tone of your comment about marriage and divorce. And to be candid, your stance bears no reflection of what Christ died on the cross to obtain for men and women.

All the solutions to wrong relationships are in a right relationship with God through Jesus Christ, and the outworking of obedience to His commands, or, the apostles' doctrine. This goes for those struggling with homosexual urges as much as those struggling with adulterous urges, or any other sinful propensity. The answers are all in the death of Christ, and in His resurrection, of which we may partake by the Holy Spirit to enable us to walk in newness of life.

Any Christian who is not walking in newness of life, ought to re-examine whether they really are 'in the faith'.

As for double standards, your quotation of the first commandment sounds a bit hollow in the light of Luke 4:4, where Jesus was quoting Deuteronomy 8:3. The real test of a Christian's inner mettle is whether Satan pays any attention whatever, when they attempt to wield the sword of the Spirit in the spiritual battleground.

The amount of unbelief which you have poured into your posts on the topic of this thread would suggest that you don't take God's word any more seriously than you have to, to soothe your religious sensibilities. You don't appear to accept the requirement to build your life upon it as Jesus commanded, or to recommend it to others for their ultimate salvation. Having studied it (you claim) your exposition shows no spiritual insight or skill of handling. Hebrews 5:13

While you count your opinion on everything as more important than God's you sound no different from the character in the tree, in Genesis 3:1, or the kind of persons Paul was describing in 2 Corinthians 11:13 - 15.

As I said earlier....

 

[KCKID]

You think God gave the Jews laws like this through prophets to keep for purely an ''identity'' ROFLMAO

If God wanted only an ''identity'' He would have told them to wear pink or chop their one finger off.

It is not a ''religious consideration'', it is an acknowledgement of what is an abomination to God. Can you be any more ignorant ? ''If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination!!!! (not contravention of Jewish dress code )

The Jews were different because they were given and obeyed God's laws. Pagans did not. God's laws pleased Him. They still apply today. Did He waste His time getting His prophets to pen them? If God hated murder, He STILL does. It is only the consequence of disobedience that we can have grace for in Jesus. But as Paul says it is not a license to sin. We need to pay EXTRA special attention to those laws that God considered worthy of DEATH don't you think?

Feel better after that rant?

I've said it before and I'll say it again ...I will not subject myself to discussions about bygone statutes, commands, instructions or the obedience to more than 613 ancient laws that are not and never were applicable to Gentiles. Case closed!

You are wrong. Matthew 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Well, Matthew 5:32 states: "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery." Later, in Matthew 19:9 we find that "and shall marry another" has been inserted. We finish up with a little bit of ambiguity here, don't you think? To sift through the Bible to find and discuss the scriptures pertaining to marriage would be most time consuming so let me play the devil's advocate here and say that it's possible that the additional piece in Matthew 19:9 does give the okay for the 'victim' of a 'cheating' partner to remarry. I don't believe that it does but I'll go along with that for argument's sake. That still leaves us with thousands upon thousands of people within the Christian Church who divorced their partners for no 'legal' reason, i.e. infidelity or the death of a spouse. I just love the way that Christians try to dodge the issue of divorce and remarriage and its general acceptance by the mainstream Christian Church. They are doing precisely what they accuse gays and gay supporters of doing ...they are twisting the scriptures so that they can hang on to the thousands of scriptural adulterers who sit in the Church pews!

You sure? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (like the one you quoted above Lev 20:13)

3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together (male and female) let not man put asunder.

Seems Jesus is being very clear about God approving only of heterosexual marriage.

The last I heard all gay relationships consist of the two genders of male and female ...just as God made them. What's the problem? As for Jesus' reply to the Pharisees ...He was responding to a question about divorce between a married male and a female. If you're as astute as you want to come across here then you will know that. He referred the Pharisees to the Torah and simply quoted that. If anything it was about "you shall not divorce your partner." Whatever else you might want to twist that scripture into saying it can never apply to the topic of homosexuality. My, oh my, some Christians just love to 'twist and shout' . . .

 

[KingJ]

Feel better after that rant?

I've said it before and I'll say it again ...I will not subject myself to discussions about bygone statutes, commands, instructions or the obedience to more than 613 ancient laws that are not and never were applicable to Gentiles. Case closed!

Well, there is proof that you fail at Christianity. Not accepting the OT as a shadow. You are guilty of the last verse in the bible. That makes you a heretic by your own admission.

The last I heard all gay relationships consist of the two genders of male and female ...just as God made them. What's the problem? As for Jesus' reply to the Pharisees ...He was responding to a question about divorce between a married male and a female. If you're as astute as you want to come across here then you will know that. He referred the Pharisees to the Torah and simply quoted that. If anything it was about "you shall not divorce your partner." Whatever else you might want to twist that scripture into saying it can never apply to the topic of homosexuality. My, oh my, some Christians just love to 'twist and shout' . . .

You are clearly unteachable.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Homosexuality is an idolatry which defiles natural order. God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi KC,

I've said it before and I'll say it again ...I will not subject myself to discussions about bygone statutes, commands, instructions or the obedience to more than 613 ancient laws that are not and never were applicable to Gentiles. Case closed!

But if you want Galatians 3:14 to apply to you, then the rest of the NT applies to you too, wherever it explains doctrine, including

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Truthfully, now, did you ever read that verse with understanding, or did you assume it doesn't apply to you?

There were, indeed, Jews in the church in Rome, as in most churches named in the NT, but the apostle was teaching all Christians.


Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God... 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die ...'

 

[JackSafari]

It is always possible\likely that in the future (maybe decades) medical researchers will discover how\why individuals are born with a specific sexual disposition. For some who feel homosexuality is a moral crime, it will not matter to them what genetic factors causes a person to be heterosexual or homosexual, they will still consider those born as homosexual to be immoral. IMHO, for the vast majority of people, it will help them understand why some people have genetic factors that cause them to be sexually attracted to the same sex.