Homosexuality

[mjrhealth]

There's nothing imprecise about the Bible but there's something definitely wrong with people that try to pull out distort and dilute what the Bible says to fit into their own social norms.

Yews there is isnt there.

Do you know ehy Jesus never called the women brought before Him a sinner,? because if He did He would have made a judgement against her and she would have being found guitly and He would ohf " by teh law" stoned her to death, it would of also made Him a hypocrit for He says

Joh 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
S oall these "christians" calling homosexuals sinner are doing what Christ said He would not do and doing it as He says "by the flesh". And since judgement requires an acuucsation to be made, You know the pharrisees "Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?"

They where the ones standing on the side of teh devil, Christ did what He came to do, He forgave he did not judge her because there was "no man" to accuse her, which is why He alsos says

Luk_6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Be carefull whos side you are on. Your words can prevent not just those whom you rally accusation against from enetring in to Heaven but yourself for Jesus says

Mat_6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat_6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat_6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Think really hard on it, its not just them you are condeming, but yourself.

 

[Wormwood]

junobet,

You seem quite entrenched and getting upset on the issue so I will make one last comment.

You continually portray me as being unkind and unloving toward others based on my views on the matter. You point to yourself as showing "agape" love toward them and act as though those who disagree with their lifestyle are oppressive and hateful. However, from my perspective, you are the one who is treating these people with unkindness.

Imagine we werent talking about homosexuality but anorexia and bulimia. You were the one saying that someone who is 5'6" and weighs 70 pounds is unnatural and unhealthy. Moreover, you claimed it is unnatrual and sinful to have such a fascination over food and to binge and purge oneself until they do severe bodily harm to themselves. You argued that you cared about these people, and BECAUSE you cared you felt it important that Christians know that such a lifestyle and behaviors were unhealthy and ungodly. You wanted better for them.

Meanwhile, I came along and said, "I show real agape love to them because I want them to do what feels right for them. Who are you to tell someone they arent fat? Who are you to say its wrong for them to eat until they throw up over and over again? This is what they naturally desire to do. They genuinely feel fat and so who are we to say they shouldnt gag themselves and vomit dozens of times a day while spending thousands on food that goes to waste? Why are you so judgmental? Yes, the Bible says we shouldnt be gluttons, but clearly it wasnt referring specifically to bulimia. I mean, they likely didnt even know what bulimia meant! Besides, Jesus never spoke against bulimia. Quit being so hateful and let people do what feels natural for them."

You see, cheering people on who are killing themselves by starving themselves and throwing up all their food because they think they are fat is not loving. Quite the opposite. They are killing themselves and I would be a willing participant in their death by approving and encouraging them that their behavior is both normative and acceptable to God. If I really loved them, I would lovingly say that this is not God's plan for them and that their behaviors are destructive. I mean, what parent wouldnt tell their child that if they were doing such things!?

In my view, homosexuality is very much the same thing. It is spiritually destructive and is not part of God's plan or design. If "progressive revelation" means that God is a liar or that his Word is so antiquated that it is, at the least, useless and at most counter-productive to progressive society...then you can keep your progressive revelation. I think God's original revelation is sufficient and I have shown you with the Greek that the words mean anything but what you try to make them mean. Not to mention that I think you are horribly misusing 1 Cor 13 if you think it is teaching that Paul's letters and declarations to the churches were not inspired or directed by God! Utter nonsense! That has nothing to do with his point in 1 Cor. 13!

In any event, It is wrongheaded to suggest that I or others who disapprove of homosexuality do not have "agape" towards others, especially homosexuals. In my view, it is unloving to watch people destroy themselves and do the things God says are both wicked and will not lead them to the relationship with God and meaningful life they truly need.

 

[StanJ]

Here, here WW!

 

[StanJ]

Yews there is isnt there.

Do you know ehy Jesus never called the women brought before Him a sinner,? because if He did He would have made a judgement against her and she would have being found guitly and He would ohf " by teh law" stoned her to death, it would of also made Him a hypocrit for He says

Joh 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
Joh 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
S oall these "christians" calling homosexuals sinner are doing what Christ said He would not do and doing it as He says "by the flesh". And since judgement requires an acuucsation to be made, You know the pharrisees "Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?"

They where the ones standing on the side of teh devil, Christ did what He came to do, He forgave he did not judge her because there was "no man" to accuse her, which is why He alsos says

Luk_6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Be carefull whos side you are on. Your words can prevent not just those whom you rally accusation against from enetring in to Heaven but yourself for Jesus says

Mat_6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat_6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat_6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Think really hard on it, its not just them you are condeming, but yourself.

I've given up trying to understand your rants mjr, I'm just going to put you back on ignore so I don't have to read them.

 

[mjrhealth]

I've given up trying to understand your rants mjr, I'm just going to put you back on ignore so I don't have to read them.

Well as I said revelation coems from God, but if you insist that God has nothing to say, how on earth do you expect to get any??

 

[Naomi25]

Wormwood...everything you've said in this thread is spot on, in both sentiment and biblical authority.

I especially like your point on how we don't, actually, hate gay people. Why would we? They're still people, and it must be horribly hard for them to hear us repeat what the bible says. A person's sexuality becomes such an integral part of life because that's what most intimate relationships are. And almost everyone craves that sort of relationship. But sadly, sin is sin...not by our standards, but Gods. And while we recognize that everyone sins, and that homosexuality is not worse than any sin I or you struggle with, the difference is that I am not attempting to make God and man say that it's actually not a sin. I'm not insisting that I can stand proudly in front of God and my church family and commit my sin happily and freely...my renewed heart won't let me. Do I fall down? Sure...but I never try and make it anything but what it is. It's sin, and I need to confront it until it's put to death in me.

To those who accuse us of hating gays when we tell them their behaviour is sin...please look at it this way: from our point of view (which we believe is God's point of view, and therefore the only view that matters), to leave gay people believing that God approves of their behaviour, and thus for them to continue in it...we leave them in the very real position of never attaining forgiveness and eternal life. How could we NOT tell a person? If we truly loved them, how could we NOT warn them? It only becomes hateful if we think this life is what it's all about. If we live and die and that's it, then it would be hateful. But this life is not it...there is a world afterwards, and it's so much more...how could denying oneself for this short space of time equal what comes after??

 

[mjrhealth]

us of hating gays

I dont beleiev anyone here has said anything about anyone hating gays, that certainly is not the issue, now why dont you go into your church and tell the congregation to sop sinning, sisnce it says that one should remove the log out of ones own eye first. But christians love to show the world how good they are yet in doing as you say drive any away from Christ. Do you know why gays are gays, can you look and see as Christ does, Guranteed you cannot, You look with you eyes and yet you do not see.

 

[Naomi25]

I dont beleiev anyone here has said anything about anyone hating gays, that certainly is not the issue, now why dont you go into your church and tell the congregation to sop sinning, sisnce it says that one should remove the log out of ones own eye first. But christians love to show the world how good they are yet in doing as you say drive any away from Christ. Do you know why gays are gays, can you look and see as Christ does, Guranteed you cannot, You look with you eyes and yet you do not see.

There is a general belief (maybe not mentioned in this thread, but certainly in our culture) that to disagree with someone's lifestyle choice, is to hate them. That is not so.

I don't need to tell 'my congregation' to stop sinning...that's usually in the sermon every week...so it would be a tad superfluous. Most Christians I know are full well aware of the sins we struggle with. Every Christian does. As I said above...the only difference is we don't attempt to put God's approval on it and therefore force man to do so as well.

I assume a gay is gay because they are born with an inclination towards that sin, just as I was born with an inclination towards the sin I struggle with. It's still sin, and still, with God's grace, to be struggled against, not given in to and called holy and approved by God.

An no...of course I can't see as Christ did or does. He is both perfect man and God. If I could be like him, I wouldn't need his grace and mercy...which I desperately, desperately do. But I fail to see how accusing me of this elevates your opinion of this matter at all, or are you saying you are able to see as Christ does, and that's why you accept homosexual behaviour as approved by God?

 

[mjrhealth]

But I fail to see how accusing me of this elevates your opinion of this matter at all, or are you saying you are able to see as Christ does, and that's why you accept homosexual behaviour as approved by God?

What accusation, again read teh sotry of Christ at teh well with teh women and teh husbands. Do oyu know why children are born with no legs , co joined etc etc, well when you figrre that out than you wont go around calling anyone sinner for to do so is to condmen ones self. Remeber Jesus and te hwomen what He said,

Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

For you to call one a sinner, you must make a judgement and which is a naccusation tha tmust be proved, who is teh accuser??

And Jesus response to teh women

Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

 

[Naomi25]

What accusation, again read teh sotry of Christ at teh well with teh women and teh husbands. Do oyu know why children are born with no legs , co joined etc etc, well when you figrre that out than you wont go around calling anyone sinner for to do so is to condmen ones self.

I'm not sure I get what you're aiming at here. Bad things (babies born with physical or mental disabilities) because this world is fallen...something that came about by human sin. Yes...I said the word. Sin. It happens. Since the Epistles are full of advice and also commands addressing the sins of people, I assume that both God and the Disciples think it's a subject we should be aware of and guard against.

Remeber Jesus and te hwomen what He said,

Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

For you to call one a sinner, you must make a judgement and which is a naccusation tha tmust be proved, who is teh accuser??

And Jesus response to teh women

Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

And yet Jesus spoke to people's sin, that they should "sin no more". The whole NT is full of the call to "repent from sin"...which means to turn from it. It tells us to teach, to rebuke, to encourage, to walk along side...people who sin...as they do the same to us.

So...if, as the Church, we didn't call people out on sin, if we didn't acknowledge certain behaviours, mindsets or actions as sin, we would be disobeying the bible. Gee....in fact we couldn't read the bible out loud in Church or in public (no doubt this is why there is growing outrage at anyone who does)....because it calls out sinners more than we do! So, to remain faithful as Christ's bride, we need to follow his lead. He loved...oh yes, he loved! But he was always the first to tell them to "sin no more".

Also...you might like to keep in mind that the bible says more than once that we shall know them by their fruits...both Christian and non Christian. This means that we are called to discern certain facts from behaviours and out workings in people's lives.

Does that give us the right to 'condemn'? No, I never said it did...only God can be the ultimate Judge, and up until that moment of Judging there is hope that a person will repent, believe and be saved. But being able to see fruit...well, that's the thing about fruit...it's always sitting out there on the branch for all to see. There's no judging or condemning in that...simply seeing and commenting. And such seeing and commenting should be done in love, as Christ always spoke up in love...and the very heart of speaking up...is a desperate hope and longing that they may "repent and believe".

 

[mjrhealth]

sin no more".

And yet you like the rest of us do, and so we are all unworthy to call anyman sinner. To call one a sinner means to make an accusation why do you think Jesus did not condemn the women, if He did as they expected, he by there judgement would of had to have found Her Guity and by the laws stoned her to death, but because there where no accuser to be found her set her free from judgement, are you going to be another christian holding stones, so many do. So easy to call them sinners than to love them as Christ does.

One day christians will understand that it is our judgement that keeps men from God if everyone walked in love and everyone forgave, teh enemy would not have a leg to stand on, he would find no one on His side and God would have no cause to judge anyman since Christ has already paid the price. It is finished.

Joh 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

 

[Naomi25]

I find it a little funny that you seem to be judging me and my intent. Do you see the irony?
Also...you seem to have totally missed my point in regards to how scripture tells us to interact with others. So...I refer you back to my previous answer...for all the good it will do.

 

[mjrhealth]

I find it a little funny that you seem to be judging me and my intent. Do you see the irony?

Intentions

Wars have being started by people with good intenetion, religions have being started by people with good intentions, people have being driven from God by people with good intentions, good intention are only good for the people who have them very rarely for the person it has being directed at.

 

[Naomi25]

Was that said with good intentions towards me, or bad?

 

[mjrhealth]

Was that said with good intentions towards me, or bad?

Take it as you will. Next time you tell a homsexyual that you did it with good intentions just ask them how they feel as they run from God,

 

[Wormwood]

mj, I dont think Nathan the prophet was too concerned about David's feelings when he rebuked him for his sin. Nor was John the baptist concerned about hurting Herod's feelings. It is wrong to tell someone they are okay when they are doing things which bring God's wrath and judgment on the world. We aren't judging them, God has already made the judgment. Homosexuality is sin. We are called to repent of our sins and live holy lives, not excuse our sins and use the cross as a means to promote evil.

One final note: God was merciful to prostitutes and tax collectors because they recognized their sin, repented and sought mercy. God did not give mercy to the Pharisees and teachers of the Law because they felt no need for repentance or that they had done anything wrong. We must recognize our sin and repent if we are to find grace in our time of need. How can we expect homosexuals to repent and find grace if people like you tell them there is no need for them to repent of their sexual immorality because they have done nothing wrong?

 

[Naomi25]

Take it as you will. Next time you tell a homsexyual that you did it with good intentions just ask them how they feel as they run from God,

Sure...that makes sense. It's okay to be judgemental to the judgemental people, even though you preach it's not okay to be judgemental. "Do as I say people, not as I do".

If all sinners ran from God, we'd all be in trouble. The idea is to run TO God. I just don't get how people find this a difficult concept. You guys read the bible right? Are you aware that God both judges, and has intentions towards us....the sinners he calls to us? Forget about my intentions...what about his? His are the only intentions that matter, because he is the only Judge.

And for goodness sake....you are aware that he does this in love? While he make the wages of sin clear, his primary concern is to bring them to himself. That's what he calls all of us to. Let's forget about homosexuals for the second, and just talk ALL sinners. When we came to Jesus, when he made us new, were there not certain actions and thoughts he asked us to leave behind with the old self? Of course there was....if we were perfect in thought and deed, we wouldn't have needed him in the first place! But the putting aside of these old thoughts and actions are done with a joy and acceptance that it is better....not from shame, guilt or accusation. Those things are from Satan...he is the accuser.
All we are saying, is that gay people need Jesus too. We see the bible is clear in saying that once born again, they need to leave homosexual relationships and behaviors behind, as sexual relationships are as God created them...for male and female. This is not easy, I know that...God knows that. But he is better. He'll always be better than anything earth can give us. And he calls us to treat Christians struggling with same sex attraction the same as every other Christian. The big issue here, is when they try and change the bible into claiming that God approves of something he doesn't. I know plenty of people suggest that the bible actually does approve of homosexual relationships and behavior, but the gymnastics and outright denial that goes into that just doesn't have weight.

I truly don't understand the vehement need for people to put a stamp of God's approval on something where it is not. Do they not understand that God is calling them to something better? To joy unending? As a song I like says: Why build a fable just so they can continue to carry a burden on?

And so, fine. Accuse me of hate...of being judgemental and having nasty intentions. But as I fear God more than I fear you...I'll continue to stand for what he says. I'll do it in as loving a manner as I can (in my own struggle against my old self!)...but my struggles and failures don't for one second discount what the bible actually says.

 

[mjrhealth]

I truly don't understand the vehement need for people to put a stamp of God's approval on something where it is not

Well you are not them so you cant see as they do, that is why we have no right to call any man sinner, Jeus sat with teh sinners it was the religious who went around accusing even Jesus of being a sinner.

And so, fine. Accuse me of hate...

No one has as far as I can see.

It is so easy when you sit on your side of the fence looking into teh neighbours yard telling them how bad it is when sometimes you need to look into your own yard and clean it up first. People ran after Jesus because they could see something in Him that pulled then to Him, when you go to the "sinners" accsuing them of sin they will run away from you, because something is missing, if you had what He had you would never need to accuse anyone of Sin, Jesus ceratinly never did, even if He did tell them occaionaly to go sin no more.

As Jesus said, you who is without sin can throw the first stone,!!!

 

[heretoeternity]

As Christians we are supposed to be without sin. (sin is transgression of the Ten commandments) 1st John...
Homosexuality is beyond sin, it is an abomination to God Lev 18 and He destroyed the city of Sodom because of their filthy lifestyle of anal intercourse and the name sodomy was given to this evil activity. God knows what is best, and if He condemns an activity you better listen to Him.

 

[mjrhealth]

As Christians we are supposed to be without sin. (sin is transgression of the Ten commandments) 1st John...
Homosexuality is beyond sin, it is an abomination to God Lev 18 and He destroyed the city of Sodom because of their filthy lifestyle of anal intercourse and the name sodomy was given to this evil activity. God knows what is best, and if He condemns an activity you better listen to Him.

Sin is sin, one sin is no worse than another no matter how you try to make this worse than any other, all sin leads to death and no one is without sin, not even you.Are you without sin???