[SIZE=medium]Hi there Wormwood,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]you’re right: this would derail the other thread, so here’s a new one. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Now, while I happen to have passed my exams in Ancient Greek, it’s more than twenty years ago that I last had to translate a Greek text. So it’s very likely that your Greek is much better than what is still left of mine. It’s unlikely though that your Greek is much better than the Greek of my church’s highly educated theologians (Evangelical Church of Westfalia), who recently decided to allow for the public blessing of homosexual couples. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Knowledge of Koine Greek is beyond the point though. My point was that you won’t find the term “homosexual” anywhere in your “Novum Testamentum Graece”, nor in any translation done before [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]1886[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. What is fact is that the term “homosexuality” was first used in in the late 19[/SIZE][SIZE=small]th[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] century and was popularized by a guy called [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Richard von Krafft-Ebing, widely thought to be the founder of a science called “sexology”. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]One thing that sexologists have since found out, is that our sexual orientation is hugely determined by biological factors. It is most likely something that we are born with and that we can no more change than we can change the colour of our eyes. Think of it as an impairment if you must, but being born homosexual is certainly no more sinful than being born intersexual (people with no definite gender: female genitalia, but male DNA etc.) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Paul could not have known any of this back in the 1th century, but we do know now. To Paul homosexual behaviour was connected to pagan promiscuity (where it must indeed also have been practiced by People Born heterosexual) and it was as much against what he perceived to be the natural order as slavery was part of the social order he saw as established by God. This comes as no surprise. What does come as a surprise is that we hear this 1th century patriarchal Jewish Roman citizen saying things like this:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]“[/SIZE][SIZE=small]28 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Because all of you are one in the Messiah[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Jesus, a person is no longer a Jew or a Greek, a slave or a free person, a male or a female.” (Gal. 3:28)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]This is the kind of deep spiritual insight, paired with an ever deeper love for neighbour, that eventually led Christians to spearhead the abolition movement even though slave-owners could point to very many Biblical verses supporting slavery. It led many of us to support women’s rights including the right to be ordained as Pastors and Bishops. And imho it should lead us to accept homosexuals the way God created them rather than continue to cause pain, grief and self-loathing. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]you’re right: this would derail the other thread, so here’s a new one. [/SIZE]
Junobet said:
It seems you and I are pretty much in the same boat when it comes to how we view the relationship between faith and works.
Just one little comment on a trifle we disagree on:
If your Bible has the term “homosexual” in it, it must be a really bad translation. The term was first used in 1869 and describes something different than what Paul had beef with in the 1th century. What I agree on is that you can’t be a Christian and continue engaging in temple prostitution and sexual exploitation, which are the contexts in which same sex intercourse were publicly known of in antiquity.
I acknowledge that for many Christians, especially in the US, this is more than just a trifle, but a highly emotional topic. But IMHO the church should concentrate on proclaiming the Gospel, and the Gospel is not about sex, it is about love.
[SIZE=medium]Let me start with something I’m sure you and I agree on: the first and furthermost commands a Christian ought to follow is to love God neighbour. And even though on this topic we happen to disagree on how to best love God and neighbour, I won’t think of you as a lesser Christian for it and I can but hope that you won’t think of me as a lesser Christian either.[/SIZE]Wormwood said:If you would like to start a thread on homosexuality, I'd be happy to comment on it. I know Koine Greek and you are getting bad information from bad sources. The words Paul uses are very specific about the behavior...he even creates a new word to describe the act of homosexuality in one instance. A recent trend among liberal Biblical scholars has been to try to convey that Paul was only speaking of the specific types of homosexuality that were related to the worship of false gods. 1) This is simply not true. 2) The argument is based on cultural context, not word meanings. On multiple occasions, Paul speaks only of the act of homosexuality and makes no reference to the temple services in which some of those homosexual acts may have taken place. In fact, Paul speaks of homosexuality as a perversion of God's created order in Romans 1. This context has nothing to do with temple practices of the day or any specific act of homosexuality related to idolatrous worship.
The fact is, these words have always been translated "homosexuality" for nearly 2000 years. The only reason the meanings of these words is starting to be called into question is because our culture has deemed homosexuality an acceptable practice and is now seeking to create legitimacy for that practice from the Bible. Neither the Jews or Christians ever interpreted their Scriptures as justifying homosexual acts...in any context.
Again, this is not the thread for this discussion, but if you want to use these comments as a catalyst for creating a new thread, I'd be happy to contribute my views on it.
[SIZE=medium]Now, while I happen to have passed my exams in Ancient Greek, it’s more than twenty years ago that I last had to translate a Greek text. So it’s very likely that your Greek is much better than what is still left of mine. It’s unlikely though that your Greek is much better than the Greek of my church’s highly educated theologians (Evangelical Church of Westfalia), who recently decided to allow for the public blessing of homosexual couples. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Knowledge of Koine Greek is beyond the point though. My point was that you won’t find the term “homosexual” anywhere in your “Novum Testamentum Graece”, nor in any translation done before [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]1886[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. What is fact is that the term “homosexuality” was first used in in the late 19[/SIZE][SIZE=small]th[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] century and was popularized by a guy called [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Richard von Krafft-Ebing, widely thought to be the founder of a science called “sexology”. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]One thing that sexologists have since found out, is that our sexual orientation is hugely determined by biological factors. It is most likely something that we are born with and that we can no more change than we can change the colour of our eyes. Think of it as an impairment if you must, but being born homosexual is certainly no more sinful than being born intersexual (people with no definite gender: female genitalia, but male DNA etc.) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Paul could not have known any of this back in the 1th century, but we do know now. To Paul homosexual behaviour was connected to pagan promiscuity (where it must indeed also have been practiced by People Born heterosexual) and it was as much against what he perceived to be the natural order as slavery was part of the social order he saw as established by God. This comes as no surprise. What does come as a surprise is that we hear this 1th century patriarchal Jewish Roman citizen saying things like this:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]“[/SIZE][SIZE=small]28 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Because all of you are one in the Messiah[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Jesus, a person is no longer a Jew or a Greek, a slave or a free person, a male or a female.” (Gal. 3:28)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]This is the kind of deep spiritual insight, paired with an ever deeper love for neighbour, that eventually led Christians to spearhead the abolition movement even though slave-owners could point to very many Biblical verses supporting slavery. It led many of us to support women’s rights including the right to be ordained as Pastors and Bishops. And imho it should lead us to accept homosexuals the way God created them rather than continue to cause pain, grief and self-loathing. [/SIZE]