G’day Pariah, good to meet you…Interesting name mate, did you choose that because of the song by the band “ Lamb of God”??Doesn’t Pariah come from a Hindu god of music or drums?? I think Pariah is a Hindu spiritual term isn’t it?
The resurrection can be a difficult concept to grasp, especially if there are three hidden harvests that makes up the Kingdom of God as a whole.
This is an interesting biblical concept of yours…this is not universally believed by other Christians thou is it??
Have you ever regarded the statistical probability of eight prophecies being fulfilled in one person? The answer is ... 1 in 10 to the 17th power, i.e. 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000).
I have never known of any prophecy that has ever been able to be interpreted before the event takes place…it is always claimed fulfillment in hindsight to make it fit a given situation…that can be done with almost any situation…In light of this, I think your statistic is flawed…Were did you get that from anyways??
Jesus trying to fulfill all those prophecies and being able to control elements outside of his control to fulfill them... like raising from the dead would be a very daunting task that only God can do.
I don’t think so, not when you understand how ancient Jewish apocalyptic thought and writing works…It seems likely to me that Jesus could have lived and taught what he did because he believed he was the messiah (Espesially after 40 day in the wilderness, thated do it for anyone), going out of his way to fulfill what he expected that messiah to do and be…He Gained a following who later established a Jewish sect (this was nothing new)…This sect believed Jesus to be that messiah…They search the scriptures to find Jesus as the prophesied messiah were ever they looked…The problem was that some of there scriptural interpretations were not very convincing to the average Jew of the first century…The Jews concept of messiah was very different…Some even waited for 2 messiah’s (a priest and a King) (Maybe John and Jesus)…Eventually we get church fathers arguing with Jews for the next couple hundred years over these claimed messianic prophecies and weather they belong to Jesus or not…There is many occasions were the early Christian fathers blatantly misinterpreted scripture, believing it was saying Jesus was the messiah when a lot of the time, it wasn’t even talking about a messiah…The Jews fervently argued these misinterpretations and it is very interesting to see how many times The Church fathers got there arguments wrong…Especially considering they were mostly gentile Christians interpreting Jewish scripture by this time…Great compilation of bible predictions concerning the messiah that you pasted. I have known about these scriptures from the beginning of my Christian conversion…it was Bible Prophecy that convinced me the most concerning who Jesus was. It was also Bible prophecy that caused me to eventually loose faith in the bibles ability to prophecy future events.When I go through this list, try to keep in mind that the gospels weren’t written for about 40 yrs after Jesus crucifixion…That helps to keep things in context…Also remember that these writers are trying to prove there belief that Jesus was the Messiah of Jewish prophecy…So, it isn’t surprising that they stretch there view to make it look that way at times…I even did that myself as a Christians as I watch most do also…Have you ever put some of these scriptures to a devout Jew and asked how they see them, if they don’t see it is about Jesus??? Lets look at some of this list…
1 .Betrayed by a friend. (Psalms 41:9; Matthew 26:49).
Mathew would claim this is a prophecy of Jesus as messiah but it seems clear to me that it isn’t even talking about messiah at all…It is a psalm of king David when he was running and hiding from his enemies…There really is no prophecy about this psalm that I can see…
2.Thirty pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:15).
Again I believe the writer of Mathew has it all wrong hear and I believe Jews would agree with me on this…(Zechariah 11:12) is talking about the wages that Zechariah himself received from the Authorities (Priests) for his being a prophet to them…In V13 God tells him to throw it away in protest to them as what they think god and his servent are worth, so Zechariah cast it to the potter in the house of the lord…This doesn’t seem to have anything to do with Judas betraying Jesus??? I don’t know what The writer of Mathew was thinking???
5.Forsaken and deserted by his disciples (Zechariah 13:7; Mark 14:50).
Zechariah CH 12 & 13 are very interesting Jewish messianic Prophecy’s…The problem I have hear is how the N/T writers have called on certain verses and claimed that refers to Jesus without taking the whole context of these chapters into account…For Example;Both chapters appear to me to be referring to the same time period, always saying, “In that Day”…In 12:9 it claims that god will destroy all nations that come against Israel but this did not happened in Jesus day, in fact the opposite happened…In 12:11 –14 it claimed that all Jerusalem, Judea and Galilee will morn as over a great King…I don’t think Jesus was that popular or all Jews would have believed he was the Messiah but only a small sect believed…I must admit thou, this is an intriguing prophecy…I have been reading it and thinking about it for a while today and will continue to until I am settled with my understanding of it…
6.Accused by false witnesses (Psalms 35:11; Matthew 26:59-60).9.Hated without a cause (Psalm 69:4; John 15:25).12.Collapse from weakness (Psalms 109:24-25; Luke 23:26).14.People will shake their heads at Him (Psalms 109:25; Matthew 27:39). 19.Friends and family will stand afar off and watch (Psalms 38:11; Luke 23:49).
Again, these Psalm have nothing to do with messiah in my opinion…it is mostly about King David…
30.Will be raised from the dead (Psalms 16:10; Acts 2:31), ascend to heaven (Psalms 68:18; Acts 1:9) and be seated the right hand of God in full majesty and authority (Psalms 110:1; Hebrews 1:3).
These last three are debatable but I must keep it short…All Psalms again though...
7.Silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12). 8.Wounded and bruised (Isaiah 53:5; Matthew 27:26).11.Mocked, ridiculed and rejected (Isaiah 53:3; Matthew 27:27-31 and John 7:5, 48).16.Executed among “sinners” (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38).28.Will be buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60).
This is another great chapter…you got me reading these prophecies again, lol…Although I need to give this Chapter a lot more thought, the things that I am thinking that challenge the N/T view is that 53:10-12 are talking about the return from Babylon (considering Isaiah didn’t write this part of the book, it was written at the end of Babylonian captivity according to most scholars). In V13 it specifies what the servant of god must endure and to be honest, most servants of god (Jewish Prophets) would fit this category…Even John The Baptist fits most of these descriptions because this is the life of a servant of god…It started by sounding like it was referring to anyone who became a servant of god and how they would suffer these things…Towards the end of Chapter 53 it became clear that The writer is referring to someone specific…Someone like Jesus...Maybe even Jesus?? I need more time on this one…(Psalms 22) like (Isaiah 52) is a very interesting Chapter that I think about a lot but I think about it from other sources and possibilities, not just what the N/T claims…You have to remember that the N/T was written in hindsight of all of these prophecies and makes it easy to fit them...It would be nice if I could trust the writers but I have read so many other fraudulent Christian writings of the same time period, so I am under no illusions that they won't exaggerate or even turn it into myth because that was the way of things then...Christianity was born in the middle of the age of mythology, so is it strange that the religion would have myths involved in it...that was the way they did things then...In Jesus time, the stories of Jesus miracles, resurrection and ascension were nothing new at all in antiquity...There were hundreds of saviors, resurrected and ascended ones...Even Mohammad Ascended into heaven...Are these common myths of the era or is it true for all claimants?? and why is it not happening any more if people are so often born of virgins and have gods for fathers (Hercules for one), doing miracles and raising from the dead, decends to hades and then ascends into the heavens...Jesus was one of many...Look it up!!The advantage we have that they didn’t, is a huge knowledge database that is literally at our finger tips these days…Shouldn’t we be more reliant on how man thinks today, some 2000 yrs later with 2000 yrs more information and knowledge to help establish these things??Out of the old testament, the only books you seem to be able to draw from to establish Jesus as a predicted messiah is Psalms, Isaiah and Zechariah with a small mention of Amos and Daniel…If this messianic hope came from the bible instead of other Jewish apocalyptic writings (i.e. TBOE), how come there is only a few books or rather a few of chapters in the whole of the O/T that you can draw from when the N/T seem to suggest it is all through the O/T??? What about “The son of man coming on the clouds with great power and glory with 10,000 of his saints to bring judgment to the world at the end of the age”…That is first class Christian apocalyptic thinking but were is that in the old testament???
I personally foresaw my own future from when I was a tot, and still getting prophetic dreams now. No one can believe them until it happens to you. So I cannot share anything on that part to strengthen your faith other than this verse that a believer may be shown what is to come.
I fully understand were your coming from hear because I practiced the same beliefs and said the same things when I was a Christian…I have learned since that there are more possibilities than what is obvious…This is how it worked for me;I would have a strong dream and wake up and put faith in what I had dreamed as from god and then interpreted these dreams and applied them to my life…There is power in faith, there is no doubt about that but I question weather faith is predicting the future or rather faith is creating “The Law Of Attraction”…Like I said, there are more than one possibility to explain this…In the end, I don’t believe anyone can foresee the future…I claimed to be able to myself for a long time but reality kicked in somewhere for me…We create these things through faith and then make them happen our selves, or so it seems to me.A good example would be the return of Israel to her homeland in this century…Was that bible prophecy being fulfilled or was it Jews (Zionists) that believed these prophecy’s and used there money and British power to make it happen because there faith told them god was giving the land back to them…Another one would be your 3rd temple…The gospel referred to the destruction of a 2nd temple built by Herod and destroyed in 70AD but if enough people believe, both Christians and Jews, that the bible predicts a third Temple and it must be build for messiah to come, then I would think it will very possibly happen…that’s not foresight, predestination or bible prophecy…Jesus didn’t look 2000 yrs into the future and speak of a 3rd temple when the 2nd was still standing… It’s just believing something and then making it happen through “The Law Of Attraction”…It is the same with Jesus as messiah…By the time he came, the expectations were so rife that all he had to do was follow the way he believed the messiah to be via scripture and everyone and everything else will fall into place…Not because it was foretold or foreordained by a bible prophecy of messiah but rather because they made it happen, Jesus and the Jews made it happen…Again, “The Law Of Attraction”, look it up!!!So, this is how I believe a lot of these prophecies that do look fulfilled come about…Predictions bring faith in something and that causes it to happen through the law of attraction, which is something Jesus practiced all the time
So here's hoping the Lord shall strengthen your faith to confess Him before men again.
Just going through some of those prophecies have strengthened my faith…Some have shown me that the N/T writers had there interpretations flawed but as for some of the O/T stuff, yes, it does make me question???
As far as the Book of Enoch goes, anything the Jews regard not as authoritative should not be taken as authoritative either.
The problem is that the N/T does claim it is authoritive;Hear is a quote from “The Book of Jude” (A book in the bible and some claim Jude to be Jesus brother). Jude 1 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. This is a “Direct” Quote from the book of Enoch En ii axis 2Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him.In Christianity and Judaism, if you claim someone prophesied something you are claiming it is god’s divine word….My point hear is that “The Book Of Enoch” was used by early Christians as divine scripture and this can be proved in so many ways…This one quote from TBOE is also spoken of in revelations, Hebrews, Thessalonians 1 and 2, 1 & 2 Peter and other places in the bible also…
As far as verifiability of the eyewitnesses' accounts of the four gospels, consider this. Imagine a car accident at an intersection. You as a police officer are taking records of eyewitness’s accounts. Some will say the whole thing. Another will leave out something. Another will say the same thing but in a different way or recalled it differently. Some may know of certain details but left it out in favor of the way he wants to share the event as to what had happened. All of these discrepancies would give you, the police officer, as to the general idea of what has exactly happened, especially if when several reports taken separately match up as others only give support to what has matched up. Then you proceed with the evidence of the car wreck and found it to be true.
This is a good analogy and you make a good point, however
I am sure if someone was killed in the accident and someone else was being held accountable and looked at going to jail for it, then, a Jury situation again, the jury wont convict without a straight story…if the facts contradict each other according to the witnesses view points, then that would be a huge complication in getting to the truth of the story to be able to pass accurate judgment…
As you are reading Josephus, that can add support to the four Gospels.
Josephus is a great book and yes, it helps a little…I don’t doubt Jesus and James existed historicly…Josephus is more fond of Jame's it seems…Probably because Jesus was long dead (or raised) before Josephus knew about him… However Josephus does not say that he agrees that Jesus is the Christ he just says that some believe him to be…Christianity was already a well-founded sect/religion when Josephus wrote this…
As far as Pauls' writings, I do believe he did mention the son of perdition.
O.K. but this has nothing to do with Jesus predicting the destruction of the 2nd temple and Jerusalem in 70ad though does it?? What are you saying? Is there to be a 3rd temple built according to bible prophecy? No way mate, I will argue that till the cows come home…How open are you to different views on this:bible:? If it does happen I can guarantee you, it has nothing what so ever to do with Jesus predicting the fall of Herod's temple in his time period…The gospels speak of the destruction of the temple of Herod (it would be ridiculous to suggest that Jesus meant another 3rd temple when the 2nd one was still standing) and the 2nd temple is the one Jesus pointed to when he supposedly said it will all fall (he said something like, “see all this hear, not one stone will be left standing)…It was the 2nd temple that was destroyed that the gospels refer too…There is no doubt about that, They were not speaking of our time and a 3rd temple…you Just have to look at Luke’s version to see it was Rome and Titus who supposedly fulfilled this prediction of The Abomination that causes desolations (only it was written in foresight again)…It helps to know your history...Different people have different views on what they see the scriptures meaning…I have enjoyed reading your views and have even believed some of them myself before, however I do believe that your views of bible future prophecy are in really bad shape and need a full reevaluation…Honestly mate, 3rd temple, mark of the beast, national ID card, Elijah still returning and other things that I find profoundly unbiblical my friend…This is what I mean by making scripture say what ever you please…It sounds like you have read to many Christian fantasies like “late great planet earth” and “the left behind series”…These are pure fantasy mate, I wish you could see that for what it is…I to had my own crazy ideas about bible prophecy once…try this one…Different Christians have different meanings to all these things…This is how I saw and believed 2 Thessalonians 2 for years;2 Thessalonians 2: 1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.Paul’s referring to his last letter, 1st Thessalonians, concerning the coming of Christ… 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,Falling away from the truth of the Christian faith and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.I believed this man of sin was the Pope who sat in Christ’s seat, the temple of god… 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withhold that he might be revealed in his time. Rome withheld until the 10 Germanic tribes destroyed her and then “The little horn” the pope rose among them creating the Holy Roman Empire that ruled for nearly 1000 yrs…These days I believe those 10 kings are Selicide kings of Antiochus time…See how people can interpret scripture to fit what they want to believe…Christians have been doing this from the beginning…There was so many divers Christian sects even in Paul’s time(Only 20 yrs from Jesus crusafixion)…
In history, one may find the account where someone did that in the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70. But, as in Jeremiah 50 and Isaiah 5, they both mirror double prophecies as they cite conditions and the similar judgments that would follow as they do in Revelations. Coincidence? Or that God's judgment is the same for dealing with sin?
No, not coincidence, haven’t you heard, “history repeats”, “there is nothing new under the sun” and like I said, it is easy to fit prophecy to any situation in hindsight…even time and time again, same prophecy different era...that's how easy it is to make them fit...It’s easy to make prophecy come to pass, Jesus clearly did that (remember the Donkey)…You can do it in foresight or hindsight...I can make WW2 look like Bible prophecy (even though I know it isn't) with antichrist (Hitler) persecuting gods people (Jews) 3rd of the world killed in war, another third to starvation...wars famine plagues...In the end, the establishment of israel again...This is way more believable than saying it is taking place now in today's world...I could probably get close to your 8 in 1 statistic with WW2 if i tried harder and it isn't even biblical prophecy
... Your view of Bible prophecy with all this futurist stuff is “Totally” flawed in my opinion… I would be glad to expand on that only I am trying to keep it short…Remember, the N/T was written in the first century about the first century for the first century…That is obvious because it is obvious that both Jesus and Paul believed that the end of the world was in there generation…We can take this further if your interested.
Anyway, may the Lord cause the increase for what was shared here.
Well, I have defiantly increased, I have been at this, reading the bible to check what your saying, all day…Thanks, I couldn’t have spent my time better…hopefully it isn’t to long to read or respond to…
You are not alone in being led astray, brother. Just keep your eyes on Jesus.
I don’t believe I am being lead astray but rather I am being lead away from my faith and into rational, logical conclusions based upon information, knowledge and evidence…I do this so “I don’t get lead astray again” with believing things that are souly based upon faith without evidence…For example, would you class this as evidence; An angel of God could not have revealed to the Apostle John concerning the Apocalypse by a vision while in Patmos, as the book of revelation claims because the book of revelation directly quote TBOE several times, using it as an obvious source… Check comparison scriptures above in my previous posts…that is only a few of them, there are more…So how is it that John received it via a vision if the writer directly quotes another book many times to write it???Keep in mind that Enoch was also taken up in a vision by an angel and shown things to come…Only I think it is safe to say that Enoch didn’t write TBOE because it is typical Jewish apocalyptic writing of the 2nd century BCE and Enoch supposedly lived before the flood (Pre-History)…This is simply how apocalyptic writing is written…we have apocalypses of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Peter, Paul, James and on and on and on and they are all similar in style depending on what time period they fall into between about 200bce to 300ce…Lastly, just a couple of clear cut questions for you or anyone else because this is were I am stuck at the moment;Can you see for your self that the writer of revelations used TBOE as a direct source and if so, then how can we believe that John did receive it from an angel while in Patmos???Also, isn’t Jude making it clear in his book that TBOE is divinely inspired by god???Sorry, that was so long…I have to learn to shorten things…