How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?

[VictoryinJesus]

I didn’t mean to sidetrack the thread.

What did I hope to get out of it? It was this …no matter how much you quote verses on here, and others come against it with their verses. I hoped sharing my story would change the preconceived notions on the topic of “perfect” …assuming I’m just a woman claiming to be perfect by our standards, judged by sight. All the verses that come against the perfecting of His body. It is spit at, immediately the word itself accused as religious. Personally, I still don’t think perfect is what we say it is, but instead an exchange that takes place with others, when it is the hardest for all involved. I wanted to share the fear of losing all things, and what He says is to be gained by putting our trust in Him. How true are His words…

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Higher" introduces a comparison that doesn't exist in the passage.

There is not a "higher walk" and a "lower walk". There is the "upward calling" in Christ.

What is to “walk in the flesh” and to “walk in the Spirit of God”?

You said no where in scripture does it say this. “Come up here?” What about The Revelation of Jesus Christ. John is called to come up higher, and I will show you things in the Spirit…then let’s debate the book of Revelation. Is it revealed by flesh, or by Spirit. Also supportive of “higher walk” and a “lower walk”: where Christ said “I am from above” “you are from beneath”. How He “lowered Himself” that we might be as He is “come down from above, born of God and not men.”

I truly don’t see the schematics of “upward calling” “higher calling” “called heavenward” or “called higher” …either way you choose John was called to “come up here” …the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Another that I just thought of is Paul. The perspective of Saul and what was born out of that. And Paul who said I received it not of men but was taught by the Revelation of Jesus Christ; and what was born out of the Revelation, or called heavenward. Do we truly not see there was a lower walk in Saul, yet a higher walk—called—in Paul “yet not I, but Christ Lives in me”?

Then are the schematics over “good” and “perfect”

 

[Episkopos]

What is to “walk in the flesh” and to “walk in the Spirit of God”?

Good question. But you ask this to a person who can't distinguish between the two. Doing so would hurt religious feelings among those who have only elevated the carnal walk to be more than it is.

You said no where in scripture does it say this. “Come up here?” What about The Revelation of Jesus Christ. John is called to come up higher, and I will show you things…then let’s debate the book of Revelation. Is it revealed by flesh, or by Spirit. Also supportive of “higher walk” and a “lower walk”: where Christ said “I am from above” “you are from beneath”. How He “lowered Himself” that we might be as He is “come down from above, born of God and not men.”

Amen!

I truly don’t see the schematics of “upward calling” “higher calling” “called heavenward” or “called higher” …either way you choose John was called to “come up here” …the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Another that I just thought of is Paul. The perspective of Saul and what was born out of that. And Paul who said I received it not of men but was taught by the Revelation of Jesus Christ; and what was born out of the Revelation, or called heavenward. Do we truly not see there was a lower walk in Saul, yet a higher walk—called—in Paul “yet not I, but Christ Lives in me”?

Then are the schematics over “good” and “perfect”

Very good. Thank you for your post. A rose among many thorns!

 

[Lizbeth]

I didn’t mean to sidetrack the thread.

What did I hope to get out of it? It was this …no matter how much you quote verses on here, and others come against it with their verses. I hoped sharing my story would change the preconceived notions on the topic of “perfect” …assuming I’m just a woman claiming to be perfect by our standards, judged by sight. All the verses that come against the perfecting of His body. It is spit at, immediately the word itself accused as religious. Personally, I still don’t think perfect is what we say it is, but instead an exchange that takes place with others, when it is the hardest for all involved. I wanted to share the fear of losing all things, and what He says is to be gained by putting our trust in Him. How true are His words…

"perfect" means spiritual, to be walking after the spirit, not the flesh, in how we live. Spiritually mature.

I believe God IS working that in the believer who is following Christ, as we are His workmanship.....that simply IS where He is leading each soul to as long as we really are paying the price and counting the cost of following/obeying Him. Following the Lamb, even to the death of our soul-life so that we can be vessels without mixture.

 

[ChristisGod]

"perfect" means spiritual, to be walking after the spirit, not the flesh, in how we live. Spiritually mature.

I believe God IS working that in the believer who is following Christ, as we are His workmanship.....that simply IS where He is leading each soul to as long as we really are paying the price and counting the cost of following/obeying Him. Following the Lamb, even to the death of our soul-life so that we can be vessels without mixture.

Amen ! Jesus call to discipleship and counting the cost to follow Him.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Amen ! Jesus call to discipleship and counting the cost to follow Him.

Someone brought up earlier that the churches now make people too fearful to speak. How condemning they are. Religious. Where others are fearful that they will surely cast them out if they do say anything. So they keep it in. This made me think of what we say in regards to counting the cost. I could be wrong but the blame seems to be on the church buildings that if they were more kind, more welcoming, more accepting …then others too afraid to speak up, would then speak. But it is obvious—just look at the churches—The cost is too high of being cast out? My question then is: is it the church buildings that need to cushion the blow by removing that fear in becoming welcoming, accepting, …or the being too afraid of being put outside? It seems like an excuse (and I’m thinking here of excuses common to us all). If “they” would do this…then “we” wouldn’t be fearful to speak and there wouldn’t be any cost.

 

[ChristisGod]

Someone brought up earlier that the churches now make people too fearful to speak. How condemning they are. Religious. Where others are fearful that they will surely cast them out if they do say anything. So they keep it in. This made me think of what we say in regards to counting the cost. I could be wrong but the blame seems to be on the church buildings that if they were more kind, more welcoming, more accepting …then others too afraid to speak up, would then speak. But it is obvious—just look at the churches—The cost is too high of being cast out? My question then is: is it the church buildings that need to cushion the blow by removing that fear in becoming welcoming, accepting, …or the being too afraid of being put outside? It seems like an excuse (and I’m thinking here of excuses common to us all). If “they” would do this…then we wouldn’t be fearful to speak and there wouldn’t be any cost.

The Bible instructs us to bear one another's burdens ( Galatians 6:2) and to confess our sins to each other and pray for each other. (James 5:16.) And to forgive others as Christ has forgiven you. ( Ephesians 4:32 ). Love does not hold things against someone and keeps no score( 1 Corinthians 13)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I didn’t mean to sidetrack the thread.

What did I hope to get out of it? It was this …no matter how much you quote verses on here, and others come against it with their verses. I hoped sharing my story would change the preconceived notions on the topic of “perfect” …assuming I’m just a woman claiming to be perfect by our standards, judged by sight. All the verses that come against the perfecting of His body. It is spit at, immediately the word itself accused as religious. Personally, I still don’t think perfect is what we say it is, but instead an exchange that takes place with others, when it is the hardest for all involved. I wanted to share the fear of losing all things, and what He says is to be gained by putting our trust in Him. How true are His words…

I think the issue here is HOW one interprets perfect.


Some in here think it means you are sinless..and promote it

Some in here think it means mature, and as we grow in Christ, we should grow more mature (perfect) as we are progressively sanctified

Some think there is no progressive sanctification. and that we are sanctified immediately at birth, and we are perfect (sinless) when we walk in the spirit, or as they call it, walk in Zion.

Then we have of course Gods view of perfection.

For all have sinned and fallen short.
According to the law. Perfection (if we keep the whole law yet stumble in one point we are guilty) was required

Once we are saved, we are perfected forever. while in the process of being sanctified (another argument in this chatroom by the OP)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The Bible instructs us to bear one another's burdens ( Galatians 6:2) and to confess our sins to each other and pray for each other. (James 5:16.) And to forgive others as Christ has forgiven you. ( Ephesians 4:32 ). Love does not hold things against someone and keeps no score( 1 Corinthians 13)

That is the point though. Doesn’t fearfulness suck opportunity for perfecting out of all of the above.

 

[Episkopos]

Someone brought up earlier that the churches now make people too fearful to speak. How condemning they are. Religious. Where others are fearful that they will surely cast them out if they do say anything. So they keep it in. This made me think of what we say in regards to counting the cost. I could be wrong but the blame seems to be on the church buildings that if they were more kind, more welcoming, more accepting …then others too afraid to speak up, would then speak. But it is obvious—just look at the churches—The cost is too high of being cast out? My question then is: is it the church buildings that need to cushion the blow by removing that fear in becoming welcoming, accepting, …or the being too afraid of being put outside? It seems like an excuse (and I’m thinking here of excuses common to us all). If “they” would do this…then “we” wouldn’t be fearful to speak and there wouldn’t be any cost.

A house church setting is the only biblical model we have. Within that "oikos" is a loving family of faith that is there to encourage the inner man and help put the outer man in his place. So there is encouragement but also rebuke when necessary. The fellowship is a place of growth in 1. spiritual understanding, and 2. instruction in righteousness based on the words from God found in the bible. The first is through prophecy and the second through sound teaching and doctrine.

The early church eldership normally consisted of both prophets AND teachers.

Acts 13:1 “Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.”

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What is to “walk in the flesh” and to “walk in the Spirit of God”?

You said no where in scripture does it say this. “Come up here?” What about The Revelation of Jesus Christ. John is called to come up higher, and I will show you things in the Spirit…then let’s debate the book of Revelation. Is it revealed by flesh, or by Spirit. Also supportive of “higher walk” and a “lower walk”: where Christ said “I am from above” “you are from beneath”. How He “lowered Himself” that we might be as He is “come down from above, born of God and not men.”

I truly don’t see the schematics of “upward calling” “higher calling” “called heavenward” or “called higher” …either way you choose John was called to “come up here” …the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Another that I just thought of is Paul. The perspective of Saul and what was born out of that. And Paul who said I received it not of men but was taught by the Revelation of Jesus Christ; and what was born out of the Revelation, or called heavenward. Do we truly not see there was a lower walk in Saul, yet a higher walk—called—in Paul “yet not I, but Christ Lives in me”?

Then are the schematics over “good” and “perfect”

When Jesus told John to come up. He took him up and showed him prophecy of things which would come..

Thats not a higher walk. He just took him up. Like he took paul up.. And paul saw things he could not comprehend..

walking with the spirit is that. You are walking in a way you are being led by the spirit. Seek after the things of the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

its not a higher calling, It is which way we are walking, are we walking in the spirit. or are we walking in the flesh. where our minds are on serving yourself.

 

[marks]

Do we truly not see there was a lower walk in Saul, yet a higher walk—called—in Paul “yet not I, but Christ Lives in me”?

We go on to maturity. Not like you live on one floor, then go to another floor to live. Those who are regenerated are "in Christ", and Christ is in them.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Someone brought up earlier that the churches now make people too fearful to speak. How condemning they are. Religious. Where others are fearful that they will surely cast them out if they do say anything. So they keep it in. This made me think of what we say in regards to counting the cost. I could be wrong but the blame seems to be on the church buildings that if they were more kind, more welcoming, more accepting …then others too afraid to speak up, would then speak. But it is obvious—just look at the churches—The cost is too high of being cast out? My question then is: is it the church buildings that need to cushion the blow by removing that fear in becoming welcoming, accepting, …or the being too afraid of being put outside? It seems like an excuse (and I’m thinking here of excuses common to us all). If “they” would do this…then “we” wouldn’t be fearful to speak and there wouldn’t be any cost.

No church should come to a non believer and judge them, They should be shown love. Far to many churches tell people they need to stop their sin first. THEN come and we can talk about how to be saved.

This is backwards.

Now as far as church discipline? That's a different subject. and scripture has given us directions on how this is to be done.

now if a church is doing as it should, and reading the word and not just doing 20 minute sermonettes. There will be a time where the passages on how we should walk and what we should not do comes up. and they are just preaching the word.. It does not come up as judgmental..

I have been to far to many fire and brimestone churches that are dead. and they wonder why

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is the point though. Doesn’t fearfulness suck opportunity for perfecting out of all of the above.

amen

thats why you come in love, not fear.

To many think if you believe this you are ignoring sin, you are condoning sin. You are licentious or whatever.

Yet that is what the bible says to do.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

A house church setting is the only biblical model we have. Within that "oikos" is a loving family of faith that is there to encourage the inner man and help put the outer man in his place. So there is encouragement but also rebuke. The fellowship is a place of growth in 1. spiritual understanding, and 2. instruction in righteousness based on the words from God found in the bible. The first is through prophecy and the second through sound teaching and doctrine.

The early church eldership normally consisted of both prophets AND teachers.

Acts 13:1 “Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.”

A house church set by itself is not biblical

While yes the early church had teachers. they also had deacons, Apostles. Bishops etc etc.

A church in the city (ie the churches of rome) had many house churhces. all under leaders within the city.

 

[ChristisGod]

That is the point though. Doesn’t fearfulness suck opportunity for perfecting out of all of the above.

Yes but remember perfect love casts out all fear.

 

[ChristisGod]

A house church set by itself is not biblical

While yes the early church had teachers. they also had deacons, Apostles. Bishops etc etc.

A church in the city (ie the churches of rome) had many house churhces. all under leaders within the city.

yes notice he is cherry picking one passage and removing it from the rest of Scripture that teaches an plurality of elders as leaders in the church. Paul set them up in each place where a church met in the N.T. James and John affirms it as does Peter in their epistles

 

[VictoryinJesus]

When Jesus told John to come up. He took him up and showed him prophecy of things which would come..

Thats not a higher walk. He just took him up. Like he took paul up.. And paul saw things he could not comprehend..

walking with the spirit is that. You are walking in a way you are being led by the spirit. Seek after the things of the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

its not a higher calling, It is which way we are walking, are we walking in the spirit. or are we walking in the flesh. where our minds are on serving yourself.

Another I thought of is where Paul mentioned we have all had our conversation in the flesh. Then he goes on elsewhere to talk of a better conversation heavenward. I have to get off here, but I’m only pointing out (to me) there seems to much about a higher calling, called heavenward, in Christ.

 

[marks]

"perfect" means spiritual, to be walking after the spirit, not the flesh, in how we live. Spiritually mature.

I believe God IS working that in the believer who is following Christ, as we are His workmanship.....that simply IS where He is leading each soul to as long as we really are paying the price and counting the cost of following/obeying Him. Following the Lamb, even to the death of our soul-life so that we can be vessels without mixture.

Amen!

 

[Episkopos]

Another I thought of is where Paul mentioned we have all had our conversation in the flesh. Then he goes on elsewhere to talk of a better conversation heavenward. I have to get off here, but I’m only pointing out (to me) there seems to much about a higher calling, called heavenward, in Christ.

Don't let the turkeys gobble you up. Fly with the eagles!