How Can Them with No Sin, have Sin?

[MatthewG]

The soul and spirit is the only mind, will, and emotion of man: the body has nothing of life and spirit for itself.

Without the spirit, the body is just dead flesh.

For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away.

Like grass, the flesh is mortal and nothing else: there is no spirit, nor righteousness, nor sin in grass nor in flesh of any living creature on earth, including all physical seed of man and beast.

Adam's body shaped by God from the dust was mortal, and Jesus' body shaped by the Spirit of Christ in Mary's womb was mortal flesh made of the physical seed of man: David.

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

Ps 139: God creates the soul of man a living spiritual being, and places him in mortal flesh of the mother's womb.

For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

We are souls covered with flesh in the woman's womb.

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

The substance of man is the same as the angels: Spiritual beings perfectly created by the Spirit, but for man secretly in the lowest parts of earth first, and also wrapped in flesh in the womb.

Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

The imperfect substance of the body of flesh and bone is created by the same Spirit through seed of man: Mortal. This is why we are made a little lower than the angels, not spiritually but bodily: we are in mortal flesh rather than immortal spiritual bodies of angels.

The hope of the saints is the resurrection of our mortal bodies into spiritual immortal bodies as the angels in heaven.

How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

Spiritual beings created by God and lightened with the light of Christ is the power to thin, intend, and imagine with the heart and mind: no other living creature earth has this power from Christ, who made them spirit only to inhabit mortal bodies.

Natural man does not believe it, and sinful man uses his power to lust for sin against God, and does so with the flesh: the flesh has nothng to say about it.

The flesh needs to breathe, hungers and thirsts, and need to work and rest for healthy and growth, but only the sinful soul and spirit of man makes the body drunken, gluttoned, and unnecessarily unhealthy and sickly.




The only difference between sinners and saints, is saints no more take unrighteous thought and vain imagination for sinning against God, and so do not fulfill the lust of the world with the flesh: Which of course takes the Spirit of Christ living within our souls with us in mortal bodies.

That is why we are indeed of His flesh and bone, because our bodies are now His mortal body on earth, and if we endure to the end, then we too will be resurrected like His own resurrected spiritual body, which He took up from the grave.

The difference being, out spiritually resurrected bodies will not have the prints of the nails of His cross as He does.

Okay.

 

[Taken]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

How can them in Christ, not have their sins taken away, so there is no sins with them, As well as be in Him in whom there is no sin, yet still have sin? Whether with them or in them?

Does Christ have no sin in Him, and yet has sin in His members?

If the body has sin, then so does the Head.

Unless, of course, the body has no head, and the body is dead.

In which case, there is no sin in a dead body anyway.

We conclude therefore, it is not possible for the Head to have no sin, with a body having sin.

Either the body has no sin and is alive with the Head, wherein is no sin, or the body is dead without a head, and has no sin anyway.

The tradition teaching about 'having no sin', made by confirmed sinners, must obviously be false.

Becoming Saved, does not mean “have no sin”.
Becoming Saved, does not mean “sinless”.

Those claims are made by ONE trying to change the words of AN OTHER, WHO says he sins NO MORE and can not sin.

I am Converted. I sin no more.
Is that me saying, “I have no sin” ? No.
Is that me saying, “I am sinless” ? No.

Any student of Scripture SHOULD know, claiming to be Forgiven their sin...is not claiming to Have no sin!
How can one HAVE NO SIN, if their sin was Forgiven? Oxymoron!

I am Converted. Forgiven sin, of my dead body. (Crucified with Jesus)
How does a Dead Body commit Sin?

Ah, but by flesh still is alive.
THE MYSTERY...
Alive body, yet dead body.
Spiritually dead, And washed, cleansed, set apart, by the Spirit of God.
Physically alive, But with Gods Spirit IN me.
...So what about Gods Spirit IN me?
...What IS Gods Spirit? Power? Yes. Light? Yes
...And What Sin, and Darkness in me, Can God SEE, that His Light does not OVERCOME? Nil.
...God forgave my sin.
...God Himself can not SEE my sin.
...God Himself remembers my sin, no more.

Meantime, Jesus gives me authority to use/live in HIS Risen Body...
UNTIL?
Until my own body physically is raised up in my own glorified body.

So while MEN like to remember, talk about, wonder about, MY FORGIVEN SIN, MY COVERED SIN....
I am pretty confident, what MEN like to DO, has no bearing on MY one on one Relationship WITH God.
What God Himself offered and gave to me, I TRUST supersedes what men wonder or say.

Conversion: in short:
crucifixion of the body with Jesus, ONE required Bodily death satisfied.
includes forgiveness,
includes restoring the soul, ie saved,
includes heart circumcision,
includes quickening of the mans spirit, ie receiving Gods Seed, ie. Born Again
includes Gods Spirit dwelling IN that man,
includes the Promise of God to forever BE WITH that man,
includes the Promise of that man to forever BE WITH God,
includes the Promise God will never send His Wrath upon that man.

Psalms 23:3
Psalms 32:1
Heb 8:12
John 6:58
John 14:16
John 14:17
John 15:4
ROM 8:10

 

[robert derrick]

How can them? or better yet...how can they?

There are 2 levels to being in Christ. There is a temporal Body present on earth among living believers and there is the eternal Body of Christ for those who abide in Him.

In one area that is true, but not exactly as you mean.

Every person on earth is an immortal soul awaiting the death of the body, whether unto everlasting shame or blessedness. (Dan 12)

No soul yet alive and remaining on earth is yet eternally saved, until they are found abiding in Him at the end, whether with death of the body or changed to immortality at His return.

Until the first resurrection of the church, there is not yet the eternal body of Christ, other than Jesus' own body resurrected from His own grave.

Until then, there are the spirits of the justified in Christ still in mortal bodies, or in heaven awaiting their resurrected bodies.

Only the spirits made perfect in death of the body are eternally saved at this time, whether by the faith of God before Christ came in the flesh or after.

QUOTE="Episkopos, post: 1334831, member: 3944"]
What does a temporal Body mean? This world is a simulation of reality. As such the churches can be filled with simulation Christians. Only those who are spiritual in Christ occupy the heavenly place where Jesus is. In Him is no sin. Those who abide in Him (in eternal reality) don't sin. They walk in God's presence and power.[/QUOTE]

Neither creation nor the mortal body is a simulation, but is the very real life or death fight for the soul.

The body is included in not sinning, not just the spirit.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The soul is not sitting in heavenly places, nor walking with Jesus in the Light, if we are sinning in the flesh.

QUOTE="Episkopos, post: 1334831, member: 3944"]
Do we sin? Then we are walking in the simulation...still under the law. Are we walking in a supernatural light, love, peace and joy that doesn't stop???? Then we are living in the eternal reality where Jesus is. We are walking in His resurrection eternal life.

There is a duality to the church. The earthly churches do not usually reflect their heavenly mandate. Saints don't fit into man-made institutions.

The correct order of the Church of God is to let the saints rule. Then the Church can be guided by the Spirit.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't use the word simulation, as though the world were not real, but rather use the terms of Scripture: being yet in mortal flesh.

If we are sinning, we are walking after the flesh and not after the Spirit.

If we are not sinning against Him, then we are walking with Him righteously in spirit first and also bodily on earth.

So long as the spiritual walk with Christ is accompanied with righteous living in the body, then your simulation teaching is not just an unreal spiritualization of being saved from sinning.

Not all walking after the flesh are under the law of God, which is to be doing the law outwardly only, and not with the Spirit. Not all sinners are acknowledging nor doing the law of Christ, For they are still them without law, or under law of another god in man's religion, such as the unbelieving Jew and Islamist.

QUOTE="Episkopos, post: 1334831, member: 3944"]The correct order of the Church of God is to let the saints rule. Then the Church can be guided by the Spirit.[/QUOTE]

They will rule over the earth with Him, after His return and resurrection of His whole body the church.

There is no sin in them that in Him, in whom there is no sin, neither in the spirit nor in the body.

There is never any sin in the flesh, being only mortal as grass, and there is no sin in the souls of them in Christ, that are not sinning against Him in heaven nor on earth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Pauline Theology is not Warped.
Check you own self saving religion, as there is your "twisted", found, and displayed, Ronald Nolette.

Sorry but Jesus is my Savior!

 

[robert derrick]

You laid it all out but have not understood.

This is the sign of John the Baptist having lost his head.

And what did Jesus say, who has He given His body to, saying, "take eat?" He has given it to those who were crucified with Him--so, yes, the body has (past tense) died--and now lives as Christ lives.

And, yes, you were right...there is no sin in that body.

The physical body is neither the natural man nor the old man of sin.

Christians are neither the headless horsemen nor zombies.

Nor are our souls saved in heaven apart from our bodies sinning on earth.

For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

The body we crucify on our own cross is our old sinful life and body of dead works.

The body Christians have is that of Christ, being cleansed from all sinning.

The works and sins of the flesh, are not the flesh's works and sins, but the soul's works and sins with the flesh.

There is neither sin nor righteousness in flesh nor grass.

The spiritual delusion of being spiritually pure while the flesh goes on sinning is delusional.

 

[ScottA]

The physical body is neither the natural man nor the old man of sin.

Christians are neither the headless horsemen nor zombies.

Nor are our souls saved in heaven apart from our bodies sinning on earth.

For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

The body we crucify on our own cross is our old sinful life and body of dead works.

The body Christians have is that of Christ, being cleansed from all sinning.

The works and sins of the flesh, are not the flesh's works and sins, but the soul's works and sins with the flesh.

There is neither sin nor righteousness in flesh nor grass.

The spiritual delusion of being spiritually pure while the flesh goes on sinning is delusional.

You got most of that right. But no, it is rather projection by the Light of Christ and the burden of the sins of the world until the times are fulfilled. This is what Paul recognized but was not given the full revelation, only building his part upon the foundation, just as he said.

 

[robert derrick]

You got most of that right. But no, it is rather projection by the Light of Christ and the burden of the sins of the world until the times are fulfilled. This is what Paul recognized but was not given the full revelation, only building his part upon the foundation, just as he said.

Paul did not receive your projected christ, because Paul had a sound mind from Jesus Christ.

Christian bodies are not dead on the cross of Christ bearing the burden of sinning.

If we are sinning, we are just another sinner of the devil like anyone else, spiritual mysticism aside.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Beware them that teach the depths of Satan for deep things of God.

 

[ScottA]

Paul did not receive your projected christ, because Paul had a sound mind from Jesus Christ.

Christian bodies are not dead on the cross of Christ bearing the burden of sinning.

If we are sinning, we are just another sinner of the devil like anyone else, spiritual mysticism aside.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Beware them that teach the depths of Satan for deep things of God.

The devil is indeed behind the lie that most believe, that lie that is against the Spirit.

 

[Jack]

This is of course a non-answer to the question: how can them in Christ have sin in them, when there is no sin in Christ?

This response is that of those seeking to worship Jesus as God, but only idolize His life as a man, that they would say cannot be lived by any other man on earth, even those naming His name, and claiming to be born of Him.

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

When someone knows God and Jesus Christ within, they then become purified like Him in the soul, and walk like Him in the flesh.

It's called being born again alive and clean to no more sin like sinners that don't know Him, neither lusting to sin within the heart, nor committing the sin with the flesh.

Non answer? Are you saying Jesus was a sinner?

 

[Jack]

To be Scripturally correct, Jesus did no sin as a man, and there is no sin in Him: no Scripture quotes Jesus ever saying, I have no sin. He wouldn't even say I am good.

Why callest thou me good?

There is no sin in them that are in Jesus Christ, even as there is no sin in Jesus Christ: it's not possible for the body of Christ to be sinning against our own Head.

And so, the Scripture of us not saying we have no sin, cannot mean we do have sin and there is lust for sin still in our heart and mind, much less are we command to say we have sin and are sinning.

The first work of Jesus within the believer is to purify the soul of lust for sin, and to cleanse the mind of unrighteous thoughts for sinning.

And the believer is commanded with power to keep ourselves pure in heart.

And so, while we may not say We have no sin, even as Jesus never did on earth, we certainly are not commanded to say We have sin in us, and are all sinners, even as Jesus did not.

That is what the hypocrites demand all Christians to say and do, just like themselves.

I won't obey their commands to either sin or to say I am sinning, because then I would be a liar like themselves, who say they know Him, and yet are sinning against His commandments:

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

It's quite a serious matter saying Jesus wasn't good.

 

[Cristo Rei]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

How can them in Christ, not have their sins taken away, so there is no sins with them, As well as be in Him in whom there is no sin, yet still have sin? Whether with them or in them?

Does Christ have no sin in Him, and yet has sin in His members?

If the body has sin, then so does the Head.

Unless, of course, the body has no head, and the body is dead.

In which case, there is no sin in a dead body anyway.

We conclude therefore, it is not possible for the Head to have no sin, with a body having sin.

Either the body has no sin and is alive with the Head, wherein is no sin, or the body is dead without a head, and has no sin anyway.

The tradition teaching about 'having no sin', made by confirmed sinners, must obviously be false.

I'm sorry but your reasoning makes no sense to me.

Not even Jesus was free from the temptation to sin. The devil tempted him when Christ was weak. That's how he attacks us, when we're weak.

Are we better than Christ? Cos if you claim to be free of temptation then you putting yourself above Christ...

Paul documents his battle against sin very clearly and I understand him well. Spiritual warfare is real

We tend to forget that not only our actions are sins but our thoughts and emotions can be sins. Hate, pride, envy, resentment, lust, anger and the like.

Every human has such emotions which are already sinful in our hearts. We as Christians ought to do our best not to act from such feelings cos they will almost certainly lead to a sinful action

Their my thoughts anyway
God bless

 

[Bob Estey]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

How can them in Christ, not have their sins taken away, so there is no sins with them, As well as be in Him in whom there is no sin, yet still have sin? Whether with them or in them?

Does Christ have no sin in Him, and yet has sin in His members?

If the body has sin, then so does the Head.

Unless, of course, the body has no head, and the body is dead.

In which case, there is no sin in a dead body anyway.

We conclude therefore, it is not possible for the Head to have no sin, with a body having sin.

Either the body has no sin and is alive with the Head, wherein is no sin, or the body is dead without a head, and has no sin anyway.

The tradition teaching about 'having no sin', made by confirmed sinners, must obviously be false.

Some people point out that we've all sinned, without considering, apparently, that we can stop sinning.