How can we be perfect and complete? Is it by Law, or by faith?

[Grailhunter]

Grail,

Not so sure what to say here. Will just let it stand, I don’t understand where you are directing the conversation or what it is you are saying.

Thank you though for sharing your subjective view on what your thoughts are on perfection?

I started out by saying you opened up some good topics and I mean it. Not trying to give you a hard time.....it is a good discussion.
But most of the time people are going to answer this with rhetoric with no substance.....all thing are possible with God does not address or give an answer to the scriptures in post 17. Faith in God does not explain these scriptures.

People pick up a Gideon Bible in a hotel and read these scriptures and they leave them confused and scratching their head.
Are there answers to these scriptures? Are we going to agree that the Bible does not directly address or explain these scriptures? We can say things that sound good.....but can we say something that makes sense....or some might say that God does not make sense....the Bible written to confuse us?.....no.

 

[MatthewG]

When it comes to all things are possible with God I believe that would be that which comes with His promises. What do you think it means?

It’s not always gotta be confusing, the confusing part comes if a person is confused about being perfect, mature or walking in integrity by following Christ allowing God to work in and through them in faith, and by the spirit.

It doesn’t seem confusing to me personally but perhaps it is for others, I don’t know.

If a person would like to share their insights please do, I went through this first post this morning trying to explain some things from scripture and hopefully by the spirit.

People will just have test things people say, some might agree, some might disagree it really is an subjective walk and as Christian’s the important thing to rely on is allowing the spirit to move a person.

 

[MatthewG]

It would be good if people where honest for the most part and say they are confused but it is doubtful anyone will openly admit this here as pretty much everyone has their own ideas about certain subjects they may be moved by the spirit to learn if they decide to grow in that subject whatever it is, and try to get as close to truth as possible which I believe is important, @Grailhunter

 

[MatthewG]

Many people who are babes in Christ still have to learn and grow and God is with them their to help them if they choose his help, he could send people along the way to help in certain fields of knowledge. God is good and the spirit is there to guide us to truth.

 

[Grailhunter]

When it comes to all things are possible with God I believe that would be that which comes with His promises. What do you think it means?

These scriptures are about what Christ said......He made the point, faith is not going to change or correct what He said.

It’s not always gotta be confusing, the confusing part comes if a person is confused about being perfect, mature or walking in integrity by following Christ allowing God to work in and through them in faith, and by the spirit.

Like I said these scriptures are not about maturing in Christ or integrity.....we can be awesome Christians but never close to the perfection of God. So what Christ said still remains unanswered.

 

[MatthewG]

Perhaps the spirit is not enough, for you in my best estimation to just say something’s by Jesus can’t be explained then, that is very strange to me, but hey you believe what you do, perhaps I just don’t understand because of the non credit to the spirit.

 

[MatthewG]

Jesus is the perfecter of faith, in Him a person can be complete and whole in and through faith in Him being made right with God because of Him.

Hebrews 12:1-3
English Standard Version
​

Jesus, Founder and Perfecter of Our Faith​

12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and (A)sin which clings so closely, and (B)let us run (C)with endurance the race that is (D)set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, (E)who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising (F)the shame, and (G)is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Do Not Grow Weary​

3 (H)Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or (I)fainthearted.

Yet people say the answer to the question is not law or faith to be complete in Christ.

 

[Grailhunter]

Perhaps the spirit is not enough, for you in my best estimation to just say something’s by Jesus can’t be explained then, that is very strange to me, but hey you believe what you do, perhaps I just don’t understand because of the non credit to the spirit.

There are times you can help people by being honest.

 

[MatthewG]

People shouldn’t be tried to be put in doubt but to test the scriptures and see if what is being spoken about is true.

It’s indicative for us an individuals to seek for truth, and reasoning via the Bible but primarily by and through the spirit.

Be encouraged those out there!

 

[MatthewG]

There are times you can help people by being honest.

Sure and thank you for commenting some of your own personal concerns dealing with those out there who might just pick up a Bible and read it but not totally understand it, they can get to a point in understanding if they choose to study and deny oneself but how hard is that even for us Christians?

Gods primary view is towards looking to the heart of an individuals soul (mind/will/emotions).

Our flesh hates anything to do with faith.

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus is the perfecter of faith, in Him a person can be complete and whole in and through faith in Him being made right with God because of Him.

Hebrews 12:1-3​

English Standard Version​

​

Jesus, Founder and Perfecter of Our Faith​

12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and (A)sin which clings so closely, and (B)let us run (C)with endurance the race that is (D)set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, (E)who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising (F)the shame, and (G)is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Do Not Grow Weary​

3 (H)Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or (I)fainthearted.

Yet people say the answer to the question is not law or faith to be complete in Christ.

Christ does a lot for our faith but as far as perfect Christians....not going to happen.... No Christian will be able to say to God the Father that they are as perfect as He is.

 

[MatthewG]

Christ does a lot for our faith but as far as perfect Christians....not going to happen.... No Christian will be able to say to God the Father that they are as perfect as He is.

Yes, that I agree with. Christ makes a person perfect in being seen as right with God though.

That is what I mean by perfect - walking in integrity or complete in Christ which is what the word perfect entails but you said that it was not defined that way.

“Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us. Because of our faith, Christ has brought us into this place of undeserved privilege where we now stand, and we confidently and joyfully look forward to sharing God’s glory. We can rejoice, too, when we run into problems and trials, for we know that they help us develop endurance. And endurance develops strength of character, and character strengthens our confident hope of salvation. And this hope will not lead to disappointment. For we know how dearly God loves us, because he has given us the Holy Spirit to fill our hearts with his love. When we were utterly helpless, Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners. Now, most people would not be willing to die for an upright person, though someone might perhaps be willing to die for a person who is especially good. But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners. And since we have been made right in God’s sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God’s condemnation. For since our friendship with God was restored by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be saved through the life of his Son.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭10‬ ‭NLT‬‬

 

[MatthewG]

Again another scripture in Colossians mentions being complete in Christ in verse 10.

“And now, just as you accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord, you must continue to follow him. Let your roots grow down into him, and let your lives be built on him. Then your faith will grow strong in the truth you were taught, and you will overflow with thankfulness. Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ. For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭6‬-‭10‬ ‭NLT‬‬

 

[MatthewG]

Faith is so highly important to God and as Christian’s we even believe the first line of the Bible by faith in which states “in the beginning God”.

 

[Grailhunter]

People shouldn’t be tried to be put in doubt but to test the scriptures and see if what is being spoken about is true.

It’s indicative for us an individuals to seek for truth, and reasoning via the Bible but primarily by and through the spirit.

Be encouraged those out there!

Addressing the truth is not casting doubt on the scriptures. Feeding people rhetoric does not strengthen faith.
Honesty is best.....

 

[Grailhunter]

“And now, just as you accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord, you must continue to follow him. Let your roots grow down into him, and let your lives be built on him. Then your faith will grow strong in the truth you were taught, and you will overflow with thankfulness. Don’t let anyone capture you with empty philosophies and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the spiritual powers of this world, rather than from Christ. For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭6‬-‭10‬ ‭NLT‬‬

I have no doubt that there are good Christians with great faith.....can you name a perfect Christian, as perfect as God the Father.....if so should we be worshipping him?

 

[MatthewG]

No one said that anyone is perfect in their flesh Grailhunter, I believe you have been mistaken upon reading the original post, therefore to continue to keep saying the same thing over is not needed. People are perfect by the spirit which is a life-long process but never completed until death. A life long time of putting God first and loving others, mistakes are going to be made along the way but Jesus like when he saved Peter from the waters when he started to drown is always there to pick us back up, or guide back to the right path when we set our eyes on him. @Grailhunter.

 

[MatthewG]

Addressing the truth is not casting doubt on the scriptures. Feeding people rhetoric does not strengthen faith.
Honesty is best.....

I believe my initial post has a lot of my honest assessments in addressing the things Jesus said, if they are right why wouldn’t it strengthen faith? I could be wrong too, up for people to test it.

Faith is what makes us complete in Christ, we die with Christ and are raised with Christ into newness of life given a new nature to live by which is the spirit putting aside the old man which once was without God and over time people’s lives change having a heart for God and others.

That old man or old woman still comes us from time to time because of the inability to lose this flesh until death, but the spirit is there to help!

“For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God’s Spirit when he adopted you as his own children. Now we call him, “Abba, Father.” For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children. And since we are his children, we are his heirs. In fact, together with Christ we are heirs of God’s glory. But if we are to share his glory, we must also share his suffering.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭13‬-‭17‬ ‭NLT‬‬

 

[Behold]

To be perfect is to be complete - or to have integrity.

There is our discipleship, ... that is our daily walk of faith.
However, this is not our Christianity, as our Christianity....... is something GOD provided as a "GIFT"

= Notice the word.

CHRISTianity.

CHRIST-ianity

See that?
Do you see it?

There is your Christianity, your salvation, your eternal life, your abiding, your redemption, your eternal forgiveness of all your sin. And there is your POWER to liive HOLY, and your prayers answered. THERE is your Light of revelation and your Resurrection......and your Grace of God....Its all found = in CHRIST.

= CHRIST-ianity.

"IN CHIRST".... = your Christianity.
And this is the end result of it.

read carefully.....

New Living Translation
So you also are COMPLETE through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

English Standard Version
and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.

Berean Standard Bible
And you have been made COMPLETE in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

Berean Literal Bible
And you are COMPLETE in Him, who is the head of all rule and authority,

King James Bible
And ye are COMPLETE in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

New King James Version
and you are COMPLETE in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

New American Standard Bible
and in Him you have been made COMPLETE, and He is the head over every ruler and authority;

NASB 1995
and in Him you have been made COMPLETE, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

 

[MatthewG]

There is our discipleship, ... that is our daily walk of faith.
However, this is not our Christianity, as our Christianity....... is something GOD provided as a "GIFT"

= Notice the word.

CHRISTianity.

CHRIST-ianity

See that?
Do you see it?

There is your Christianity, your salvation, your eternal life, your abiding, your redemption, your eternal forgiveness of all your sin. And there is your POWER to liive HOLY, and your prayers answered. THERE is your Light of revelation and your Resurrection......and your Grace of God....Its all found = in CHRIST.

= CHRIST-ianity.

"IN CHIRST".... = your Christianity.
And this is the end result of it.

read carefully.....

New Living Translation
So you also are COMPLETE through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

English Standard Version
and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.

Berean Standard Bible
And you have been made COMPLETE in Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

Berean Literal Bible
And you are COMPLETE in Him, who is the head of all rule and authority,

King James Bible
And ye are COMPLETE in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

New King James Version
and you are COMPLETE in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

New American Standard Bible
and in Him you have been made COMPLETE, and He is the head over every ruler and authority;

NASB 1995
and in Him you have been made COMPLETE, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

Yes behold, it is all about being complete in Him. Which brings forth newness of life!

“Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace? Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it? Or have you forgotten that when we were joined with Christ Jesus in baptism, we joined him in his death? For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives. Since we have been united with him in his death, we will also be raised to life as he was. We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin. And since we died with Christ, we know we will also live with him. We are sure of this because Christ was raised from the dead, and he will never die again. Death no longer has any power over him. When he died, he died once to break the power of sin. But now that he lives, he lives for the glory of God. So you also should consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6‬:‭1‬-‭11‬ ‭NLT‬‬