How did Paganism get into the church?

[Illuminator]

extra ecclesiam nulla salus
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

The historic Church does not have the authority to change what the Apostles taught. The separation of entire communities occured AFTER Unam Sanctum so it is not addressed to Protestants that didn't exist until 3 centuries later.

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

More historical profiling. The SDA do that constantly.

Vatican II: Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Toward unity

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

821 Certain things are required in order to respond adequately to this call:

- a permanent renewal of the Church in greater fidelity to her vocation; such renewal is the driving-force of the movement toward unity;280

- conversion of heart as the faithful "try to live holier lives according to the Gospel";281 for it is the unfaithfulness of the members to Christ's gift which causes divisions;

- prayer in common, because "change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name 'spiritual ecumenism;"'282

- fraternal knowledge of each other;283

- ecumenical formation of the faithful and especially of priests;284

- dialogue among theologians and meetings among Christians of the different churches and communities;285

- collaboration among Christians in various areas of service to mankind.286 "Human service" is the idiomatic phrase.

822 Concern for achieving unity "involves the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike."287 But we must realize "that this holy objective - the reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ - transcends human powers and gifts." That is why we place all our hope "in the prayer of Christ for the Church, in the love of the Father for us, and in the power of the Holy Spirit."288

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

 

[BlessedPeace]

The historic Church does not have the authority to change what the Apostles taught. The separation of entire communities occured AFTER Unam Sanctum so it is not addressed to Protestants that didn't exist until 3 centuries later.


More historical profiling. The SDA do that constantly.

Vatican II: Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Toward unity

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

821 Certain things are required in order to respond adequately to this call:

- a permanent renewal of the Church in greater fidelity to her vocation; such renewal is the driving-force of the movement toward unity;280

- conversion of heart as the faithful "try to live holier lives according to the Gospel";281 for it is the unfaithfulness of the members to Christ's gift which causes divisions;

- prayer in common, because "change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name 'spiritual ecumenism;"'282

- fraternal knowledge of each other;283

- ecumenical formation of the faithful and especially of priests;284

- dialogue among theologians and meetings among Christians of the different churches and communities;285

- collaboration among Christians in various areas of service to mankind.286 "Human service" is the idiomatic phrase.

822 Concern for achieving unity "involves the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike."287 But we must realize "that this holy objective - the reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ - transcends human powers and gifts." That is why we place all our hope "in the prayer of Christ for the Church, in the love of the Father for us, and in the power of the Holy Spirit."288

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3

Thank you for reiterating the information in my post that you cited first. And also for the primacy profile afforded by the RCC literature you shared.

 

[Illuminator]

Development of Doctrine

Development is how Catholics try to explain away their doctrinal novelties

Christian doctrine was given once and for all, completely developed, by Jesus Christ

Initial reply

Development of doctrine is common to all kinds of Christians; it happened in history with regard to doctrines agreed upon by all, and it is also seen in the Bible.

Extensive reply

The Catholic Church holds that there was one apostolic deposit, given by Jesus Christ to the apostles, and that there has been no essential change in that. The Catholic Church preserves this apostolic deposit (Jude 3), and is the Guardian of it. But, on the other hand, there is a growth in clarity of those truths, and men’s understanding increases. One must keep this distinction in mind when discussing development.

Protestants believe in progressive revelation. Reading Genesis is a lot different from reading, say, John or Colossians. It is obvious that great development of the thought and the theology occurs. As an example, one could analyze the idea of faith or salvation. First, the Bible presents the Abrahamic Covenant, which is basically Abraham believing in God, and this being “reckoned unto him righteousness.” A little later on, we see the notion of the chosen people, which is somewhat like election, or enabling grace from God. In other words, it’s unmerited. God chose them and gave them grace for His purposes. The Law and the commandments were given to preserve this people.

Then God reveals the eternal Davidic Covenant to David, and we slowly see in the Bible a notion of the Messiah, and in Isaiah 53, the “suffering servant” – which predicted Jesus’ Passion. This is all development of doctrine: all the way through the Old Testament, to the gospel being announced, with John the Baptist and Jesus Himself, and even then Jesus said that He came not to “abolish” the Law but to “fulfil” it (Matt. 5:17).

In the Christian era, doctrines continue to develop. The Church especially pondered more deeply the doctrine of Christ in response to heretics; for example, at the council of Chalcedon in 451, which decreed the notion of the Two Natures of Christ or Hypostatic Union: Jesus is both God and Man. That was in response to the Monophysite heresy, which held that Jesus had one nature. Other doctrines which clearly developed were the afterlife, the Holy Spirit, the equality of Jews and Gentiles, bodily resurrection, Christ’s sacrifice as a development of the sacrifice of lambs, etc. No doctrine emerges in the Bible complete with no further need of development.

Objection

Granted, some doctrines have developed. But Catholics go beyond the Bible when they develop doctrines, such as Mary and purgatory. There is no biblical check on the development, so that it can go off into false teaching and the traditions of men.

Reply to Objection

There is more evidence for acceptance of the doctrine of purgatory in the Church fathers than for original sin (accepted by all Christians). One cannot have it both ways. If purgatory is unacceptable because it developed “late,” then original sin must be rejected with it. Catholics can give plenty of biblical evidences of purgatory. At the time the Marian doctrines were developing, so were things like the canon of Scripture and Christology and the Trinity. If those things could develop many centuries after Christ, why is it objectionable for the Marian doctrines or eucharistic theology to also do so? The Church decided what was a true development and what wasn’t.

The Bible indicates something like development of doctrine, too (Jn. 14:26, 16:13; 1 Cor. 2:9-16; Gal. 4:4; Eph. 1:10; 4:12-16). The Church is called the “Body of Christ” (e.g., Eph. 1:22-23), and is compared to a seed that grows into a tree (Matt. 13:31-32). Seeds and bodies grow and expand. This is development of doctrine.
source
further reading:

Development Of Doctrine: A Corruption Of Biblical Teaching?

Doctrines agreed upon by all undergo development, too. The Divinity or Godhood of Christ was only finalized in 325; the full doctrine of the Trinity in 381.

www.patheos.com

 

[Keiw]

2 Thessalonians 2:3-9
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

We see that Paul, in his second letter to the Thessalonians, foretold the great apostasy which would result in the establishment of AntiChrist power. He declared that before the return of Christ would, "come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who exalteth himself above all that is called God;" Even at that early date he saw, creeping into the church, errors in belief that would prepare the way for the false teachings to come in, and history confirmed how it happen.

Little by little, and then more openly as it increased in strength and gained control of believers, paganism and idol worship came into the church. Almost imperceptibly the traditions and customs of Pagan Rome found their way into the Christian church from the former center of the Empire and spread. It had been held back by the persecutions by the Roman Emperors, but as persecution ceased, and Christianity was accepted, the true church began to lay aside its humble beginnings and truth of Christ, for the rites, sacraments and pomp of ancient Rome and the practices of pagan priests and ancient heathen worship with its Babylonian/Greek/Roman gods inscribed with Christians names.

It crept in, then really gained momentum with Emperor Constantine, who tried to politically not to leave out or alienate those who practiced paganism after he claim to convert to Christianity. He declared the Bishop of Rome as the enforcer of truth and forced the merger of paganism into the church, and the heathen religion now cloaked with a 'christianized' cover, walked into the church. Paganism, while outwardly looking to like it was overcome by the church, became the one that vanquished. Pagan doctrines, ceremonies, and superstitions were incorporated into the faith and worship of the professed followers of Christ.

This compromise between paganism and Christianity resulted in the development of "the man of sin" foretold in prophecy as opposing and exalting himself above God. In the early church, the bishop of Rome, along with Alexandria and Antioch, was regarded as a Patriarchate, or an autonomous diocese. To this group was added the patriachates of Constantinople and Jerusalem in the fifth century. This group of five was regarded as leading the church as a whole. However, gaining political influence and claiming "historical events" saying the tradition that Peter and Paul had been martyred in Rome, the Bishop of Rome made himself first among equals. To secure worldly gains and honors, the church was led to seek the favor and support of the great men of earth; the church was forced to yield allegiance to the the bishop of Rome.

Many of the ancient people worshiped the sun and other pagan gods as they thought that their sun gods and fertility goddesses died at the winter solstice and regained life again at the spring equinox. Note what it says in Judges..
Judges 2:13
And they forsook the Lord, and served Baal and Ashtaroth.

But history shows that Baal worship is sun worship, and Ashtoreth/Ishtar/Astarte is the queen of heaven. This is why there are so many sunburst images in Catholicism and why Mary is called the 'Queen of Heaven', the church at Rome incorporated them slowly in. It is the apostasy of idol worship of Baal and Ashtaroth that had started to come into the church.

History shows that long before Mary, pagans fashioned Madonna and child icons and placed them in sacred shrines. Many believe that with the rise of Christianity and papal power, the Goddess would slowly disappear from western culture and fade away. But they didnt, the names and the images of the Madonna and child have changed, and spread. For many pagan 'converts', the blending of their ancient goddesses with the Virgin Mary was a major part of what allowed them to keep their pagan gods but get in the church.

The Bible would have quickly shown they had turned away into false beliefs so its truths had to be concealed and suppressed. For hundreds of years the circulation of the Bible was prohibited by the papacy. The people were forbidden to read it or to have it in their houses, and the Bible having been removed, the papacy moved quickly. To afford converts from heathenism a substitute for the worship of idols, and thus to promote their nominal acceptance of Christianity, the adoration of images and relics was gradually introduced into the Christian worship. To hide what they had done, Rome presumed to expunge from the law of God the second commandment in their writings, forbidding image worship, and to divide the tenth commandment, in order to preserve the number.

Then they went after the fourth commandment also, and essayed to set aside the Sabbath, and put in the festival day observed by the heathen as "the venerable day of the sun." With great subtlety the papacy worked to bring about this change. That the attention of the people might be called to the Sunday, it was made a festival in honor of the resurrection of Christ. Religious services were held upon it; yet it was regarded as a day of recreation, the Sabbath being still sacredly observed.

In the early part of the fourth century the emperor Constantine as part his merging of paganism with the church had issued a decree making Sunday a public festival throughout the Roman Empire. It was the emperor's policy to unite the conflicting interests of heathenism and Christianity, and he was urged to do this by the bishops of the church, who perceived that if the same day was observed by both Christians and heathen, it would promote the nominal acceptance of Christianity by pagans and thus advance the power and glory of the church. Thus the minds of the people were turned away from God to fallible, corruptible men who claimed to lead the church, and the Pope who came to regard himself as supreme, with the elevation of false laws and corrupt traditions that always results from setting aside the law of God.

We must read the Bible and cleanse ourselves from any of the paganism and false worship especially the pagan festivals or "Holy Days" that have been spread into many churches beliefs. The Protestant churches that split from and began the Reformation because they saw the truth and fought so hard against the pagan Papal Roman church are now falling one by one to even worse beliefs in secularism and paganism. Slowly but surely they are giving up the true beliefs that were their foundation untlil they become nothing but secular social clubs with pagan traditions and festivals.

Catholicism=2Thess 2:3--that is how it got all screwed up and pagan additives were brought in-no protestant religion fixed it, they are in error as well.

 

[amigo de christo]

Call no man father but your Father in Heaven.
Matthew 23

Yet they even give out titles to men like most holy reverand , most holy father . Yeah , lambs wont sit at that table .
exactly sister . for ye are brethren . We just mere people and not worthy of such titles . ONLY GOD IS .
Yep . Now praise the glorious King my friend .

 

[amigo de christo]

Catholicism=2Thess 2:3--that is how it got all screwed up and pagan additives were brought in-no protestant religion fixed it, they are in error as well.

Let all who name the name of JESUS CHRIST sit not nor partake at her table of adultery and compromise .
Yes indeed me friend . Lambs wont sit at that table .

 

[BlessedPeace]

Yet they even give out titles to men like most holy reverand , most holy father . Yeah , lambs wont sit at that table .
exactly sister . for ye are brethren . We just mere people and not worthy of such titles . ONLY GOD IS .
Yep . Now praise the glorious King my friend .

Don't forget the title of, Eminence. And also, Papal infallibility.

 

[amigo de christo]

Don't forget the title of, Eminence. And also, Papal infallibility.

The lambs wont sit at that table of compromise . Yep . March onwards in the glorious Lord , pearl . onwards in the KING .

 

[The Learner]

Development of Doctrine

Development is how Catholics try to explain away their doctrinal novelties

Christian doctrine was given once and for all, completely developed, by Jesus Christ

Initial reply

Development of doctrine is common to all kinds of Christians; it happened in history with regard to doctrines agreed upon by all, and it is also seen in the Bible.

Extensive reply

The Catholic Church holds that there was one apostolic deposit, given by Jesus Christ to the apostles, and that there has been no essential change in that. The Catholic Church preserves this apostolic deposit (Jude 3), and is the Guardian of it. But, on the other hand, there is a growth in clarity of those truths, and men’s understanding increases. One must keep this distinction in mind when discussing development.

Protestants believe in progressive revelation. Reading Genesis is a lot different from reading, say, John or Colossians. It is obvious that great development of the thought and the theology occurs. As an example, one could analyze the idea of faith or salvation. First, the Bible presents the Abrahamic Covenant, which is basically Abraham believing in God, and this being “reckoned unto him righteousness.” A little later on, we see the notion of the chosen people, which is somewhat like election, or enabling grace from God. In other words, it’s unmerited. God chose them and gave them grace for His purposes. The Law and the commandments were given to preserve this people.

Then God reveals the eternal Davidic Covenant to David, and we slowly see in the Bible a notion of the Messiah, and in Isaiah 53, the “suffering servant” – which predicted Jesus’ Passion. This is all development of doctrine: all the way through the Old Testament, to the gospel being announced, with John the Baptist and Jesus Himself, and even then Jesus said that He came not to “abolish” the Law but to “fulfil” it (Matt. 5:17).

In the Christian era, doctrines continue to develop. The Church especially pondered more deeply the doctrine of Christ in response to heretics; for example, at the council of Chalcedon in 451, which decreed the notion of the Two Natures of Christ or Hypostatic Union: Jesus is both God and Man. That was in response to the Monophysite heresy, which held that Jesus had one nature. Other doctrines which clearly developed were the afterlife, the Holy Spirit, the equality of Jews and Gentiles, bodily resurrection, Christ’s sacrifice as a development of the sacrifice of lambs, etc. No doctrine emerges in the Bible complete with no further need of development.

Objection

Granted, some doctrines have developed. But Catholics go beyond the Bible when they develop doctrines, such as Mary and purgatory. There is no biblical check on the development, so that it can go off into false teaching and the traditions of men.

Reply to Objection

There is more evidence for acceptance of the doctrine of purgatory in the Church fathers than for original sin (accepted by all Christians). One cannot have it both ways. If purgatory is unacceptable because it developed “late,” then original sin must be rejected with it. Catholics can give plenty of biblical evidences of purgatory. At the time the Marian doctrines were developing, so were things like the canon of Scripture and Christology and the Trinity. If those things could develop many centuries after Christ, why is it objectionable for the Marian doctrines or eucharistic theology to also do so? The Church decided what was a true development and what wasn’t.

The Bible indicates something like development of doctrine, too (Jn. 14:26, 16:13; 1 Cor. 2:9-16; Gal. 4:4; Eph. 1:10; 4:12-16). The Church is called the “Body of Christ” (e.g., Eph. 1:22-23), and is compared to a seed that grows into a tree (Matt. 13:31-32). Seeds and bodies grow and expand. This is development of doctrine.
source
further reading:

Development Of Doctrine: A Corruption Of Biblical Teaching?

Doctrines agreed upon by all undergo development, too. The Divinity or Godhood of Christ was only finalized in 325; the full doctrine of the Trinity in 381.

www.patheos.com

https://restorationchristianculture.org/wp-content/uploads/Essay-on-the-Development-of-Christian-Doctrine-An-John-Henry-Newman.pdf

 

[amigo de christo]

https://restorationchristianculture.org/wp-content/uploads/Essay-on-the-Development-of-Christian-Doctrine-An-John-Henry-Newman.pdf

Hit the trenches my friend .

 

[The Learner]

Hit the trenches my friend .

On my knees

Body is still in pain, shoulders.

 

[amigo de christo]

It is not the same God. The Quran says that Jesus wasn't crucified,

1Cor 2:2 "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."
He was crucified to save us. If that is denied, and He merely ascended, then we have no forgiveness of sin.

SPOT ON RIGHT SISTER . they even say GOD HAS NO SON . that JESUS is not THE THE CHRIST .
this is that of anti christ . The lambs point to CHRIST JESUS . Yes indeed . all other paths wont make it .

 

[amigo de christo]

On my knees

Body is still in pain, shoulders.

You will be prayed for my friend . There is something you need to know .
The muslims do not worship the same GOD we do . THE Jesus they follow IS NOT THE JESUS CHRIST .
It is what paul would call another jesus , another gospel .
This is that which cometh to unite all religoins as one under the idea all serve the same GOD . IT IS A LIE .
And more and more they now push against those who do preach BELIEVING IN JESUS CHRIST as a dire must .
THEY coming against the very gopsel now . I knew they would and it will get worse .
SO just beware that abraham accords stuff my friend . JESUS told even the jews who beleived not HE was THE CHRIST
that they were of their father satan . We must preach the only and aboslute only hope one has
WHICH IS JESUS CHRIST .

 

[The Learner]

Articles by Sam Shamoun

Site is known as answering islam

 

[BlessedPeace]

On my knees

Body is still in pain, shoulders.

 

[The Learner]

Resource Links on Islam

Christian Web Sites interacting with Islam​

Most Christian sites on Islam have material explaining the Christian faith, including answers to Muslims misconceptions, as well as articles stating why they do not believe that Islam is truth. As a navigational help the below sites are sorted in two categories depending on their main focus.

What Christians Believe		Critique of Islam from a Christian Perspective
Al-Injil: Good News For You The Abraham Connection God's Unchanging Word Al Nour The Good Way Biblical Christianity Explained to Muslims Bible and Quran IsaalMasih.net Gospel for Muslims .org The Tandoor Good News for the Crescent World Into the Light Spotlight on Muslim Misconceptions Path of Peace Waters of Life What every Muslim needs to know Bible Study courses: Al-Kitab, Word of Life		Answering Islam Answering Muslims The Debate Site Muhammadanism Answering Infidels (focusses on atheists, but also has an Islam section) Father Zakaria Butros (a courageous Egyptian priest) Religion Research Institute Institute for Islamic Studies (jounal articles in German and English) Light of Life Islam: The Way, The Truth and The Light? Islam Unveiled The Spirit of Islam Middle East Resources MuslimHope.com Truthnet: Islam The Koran, The Torah and The Gospel TheQuran.com IslamReview by The Pen vs. the Sword Grace and Truth Islameyat Sons of Ishmael An answer to the claims of Islam Islam Examined Islam is not what you think Islam and Christianity (blog with some interesting thoughts) Alternative Views on Islam and Internet Toolbox for Islam-critics (lots of links, not necessarily Christian)

Christian Web Pages interacting with Islam

 

[laBonhomme]

Wow. That was really deep and had a lot of cut and paste text blocks in it. I'm not going to complain about the cut and paste text blocks, because I hadn't read all the works quoted in them, but I think the answer is a little bit simpler than you cats are letting on. How did paganism "get into the church"? Well, what I gather from reading around the city blocks and meeting professed non-Christians face to face in daily life is that "paganism" is part of the Bible narrative. I'm not kidding, especially older aged (meaning over forty) and extroverted art world (I know quite a few musicians) have told me socially in business contexts that they know what they're doing specifically because they read about it in the Bible.

I'm probably off topic, I don't know where you go to church, and my church is not pagan at all. Also, the people I'm telling you about having met who said that they personally found out about other than Judeo-Christin practices in church as kids or from the Bible don't attend religious services at all, they've left.

Still, you over thought that. People who are spiritual know about Satanism because Satan is a spiritual fallen angel and very prominent character in the Bible.

 

[The Learner]

Wow. That was really deep and had a lot of cut and paste text blocks in it. I'm not going to complain about the cut and paste text blocks, because I hadn't read all the works quoted in them, but I think the answer is a little bit simpler than you cats are letting on. How did paganism "get into the church"? Well, what I gather from reading around the city blocks and meeting professed non-Christians face to face in daily life is that "paganism" is part of the Bible narrative. I'm not kidding, especially older aged (meaning over forty) and extroverted art world (I know quite a few musicians) have told me socially in business contexts that they know what they're doing specifically because they read about it in the Bible.

I'm probably off topic, I don't know where you go to church, and my church is not pagan at all. Also, the people I'm telling you about having met who said that they personally found out about other than Judeo-Christin practices in church as kids or from the Bible don't attend religious services at all, they've left.

Still, you over thought that. People who are spiritual know about Satanism because Satan is a spiritual fallen angel and very prominent character in the Bible.

check out Hellenistic commentary to the New Testament --- it may blow their minds. Hellenistic commentary to the New Testament : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[laBonhomme]

check out Hellenistic commentary to the New Testament --- it may blow their minds. Hellenistic commentary to the New Testament : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Yeah, I'll get there in a minute. I already have an original hard copy of Marcus Arielis in Greek, but I've seen classics online that were good too. Internet Christian sites are just funny, alright? Most of the small time S.Y.S.O.P.S I meet on the net will never understand that. A Christian chat club on Proboards is a discrete instance of an account on a mainframe server that has thousands of bulletin boards, I know everyone is trying to present themselves as all serious and scholarly-spiritual on here but think logically like an electrical engineer for five minutes. I'm sure you also have a real church that you attend, but people come in rooms like this and pretend like they're "in" church. This is the internet, it's all connected one typewriter screen to the next, that's the point of the Internet by definition. Someone who thinks that a thread about how paganism got into an internet "church" is serious is drunk, broskii.

How did paganism get into the Church of the Amateur Netizen in Dyson's Cathedral Who is too Cheap Even to pay to Block the Advertising on Proboards.com? Obviously, someone filed it in a database and put it online. It's as simple as barking at the moon, you use Windows? Well, you can have more than one open at the same time, and toggle back and forth between your virtual corkboard church clubhouse and hundreds of salacious pagan URLs, typing away about how much witchy, mysterious and foreboding prognostication you know.

People think they look well traveled, well meditated, and wise, they think I mistake them for initiates into and experts on mystery cults. I don't. I have the whole entire Internet in from of my face too.

 

[Hobie]

Development of Doctrine

Development is how Catholics try to explain away their doctrinal novelties

Christian doctrine was given once and for all, completely developed, by Jesus Christ

Initial reply

Development of doctrine is common to all kinds of Christians; it happened in history with regard to doctrines agreed upon by all, and it is also seen in the Bible.

Extensive reply

The Catholic Church holds that there was one apostolic deposit, given by Jesus Christ to the apostles, and that there has been no essential change in that. The Catholic Church preserves this apostolic deposit (Jude 3), and is the Guardian of it. But, on the other hand, there is a growth in clarity of those truths, and men’s understanding increases. One must keep this distinction in mind when discussing development.

Protestants believe in progressive revelation. Reading Genesis is a lot different from reading, say, John or Colossians. It is obvious that great development of the thought and the theology occurs. As an example, one could analyze the idea of faith or salvation. First, the Bible presents the Abrahamic Covenant, which is basically Abraham believing in God, and this being “reckoned unto him righteousness.” A little later on, we see the notion of the chosen people, which is somewhat like election, or enabling grace from God. In other words, it’s unmerited. God chose them and gave them grace for His purposes. The Law and the commandments were given to preserve this people.

Then God reveals the eternal Davidic Covenant to David, and we slowly see in the Bible a notion of the Messiah, and in Isaiah 53, the “suffering servant” – which predicted Jesus’ Passion. This is all development of doctrine: all the way through the Old Testament, to the gospel being announced, with John the Baptist and Jesus Himself, and even then Jesus said that He came not to “abolish” the Law but to “fulfil” it (Matt. 5:17).

In the Christian era, doctrines continue to develop. The Church especially pondered more deeply the doctrine of Christ in response to heretics; for example, at the council of Chalcedon in 451, which decreed the notion of the Two Natures of Christ or Hypostatic Union: Jesus is both God and Man. That was in response to the Monophysite heresy, which held that Jesus had one nature. Other doctrines which clearly developed were the afterlife, the Holy Spirit, the equality of Jews and Gentiles, bodily resurrection, Christ’s sacrifice as a development of the sacrifice of lambs, etc. No doctrine emerges in the Bible complete with no further need of development.

Objection

Granted, some doctrines have developed. But Catholics go beyond the Bible when they develop doctrines, such as Mary and purgatory. There is no biblical check on the development, so that it can go off into false teaching and the traditions of men.

Reply to Objection

There is more evidence for acceptance of the doctrine of purgatory in the Church fathers than for original sin (accepted by all Christians). One cannot have it both ways. If purgatory is unacceptable because it developed “late,” then original sin must be rejected with it. Catholics can give plenty of biblical evidences of purgatory. At the time the Marian doctrines were developing, so were things like the canon of Scripture and Christology and the Trinity. If those things could develop many centuries after Christ, why is it objectionable for the Marian doctrines or eucharistic theology to also do so? The Church decided what was a true development and what wasn’t.

The Bible indicates something like development of doctrine, too (Jn. 14:26, 16:13; 1 Cor. 2:9-16; Gal. 4:4; Eph. 1:10; 4:12-16). The Church is called the “Body of Christ” (e.g., Eph. 1:22-23), and is compared to a seed that grows into a tree (Matt. 13:31-32). Seeds and bodies grow and expand. This is development of doctrine.
source
further reading:

Development Of Doctrine: A Corruption Of Biblical Teaching?

Doctrines agreed upon by all undergo development, too. The Divinity or Godhood of Christ was only finalized in 325; the full doctrine of the Trinity in 381.

www.patheos.com

That is the issue, they go beyond and against what Christ taught, and declare they have the 'authority' from 'tradition', but it is not what we have in Gods Word.