How did Paganism get into the church?

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Illuminator

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That is the issue, they go beyond and against what Christ taught, and declare they have the 'authority' from 'tradition', but it is not what we have in Gods Word.
God's Word mandates Tradition. Your problem is changing the meaning of "Tradition" into a dirty word. The Bible doesn't do that. Tradition, properly understood, (which it never is with Hislopites like you), comes from the same divine wellspring as Scripture, it's not an add on. God is not limited to ONE means of transmitting His Word. It's all the same WORD.

Many Protestants (especially anti-Catholic ones) hold, by and large, the view that Scripture and sacred, apostolic tradition are somehow unalterably opposed to each other and, for all practical purposes, mutually exclusive. This is yet another example of a false dichotomy which Protestantism often (unfortunately) tends to create (e.g., faith vs. works, matter vs. spirit). The Bible, however, presupposes tradition as an entity prior to and larger than itself, from which it is derived, not as some sort of “dirty word.”

It is one thing to wrongly assert that Catholic tradition (the beliefs and dogmas which the Church claims to have preserved intact passed down from Christ and the apostles) is corrupt, excessive and unbiblical. It is quite another to think that the very concept of tradition is contrary to the outlook of the Bible and pure, essential Christianity. This is, broadly speaking, a popular and widespread variant of the distinctive Protestant viewpoint of sola Scriptura, or “Scripture Alone,” which was one of the rallying cries of the Protestant Revolt in the 16th century. It remains the supreme principle of authority, or “rule of faith” for evangelical Protestants today. Sola Scriptura by its very nature tends to pit tradition against the Bible.

First of all, one might also loosely define tradition as the authoritative and authentic Christian history of theological doctrines and devotional practices. Christianity, like Judaism before it, is fundamentally grounded in history: in the earth-shattering historical events in the life of Jesus Christ (the incarnation, miracles, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, etc.). Eyewitnesses (Lk 1:1-2, Acts 1:1-3, 2 Pet 1:16-18) communicated these true stories to the first Christians, who in turn passed them on to other Christians (under the guidance of the Church’s authority) down through the ages. Therefore, Christian tradition, defined as authentic Church history, is unavoidable.

Many Protestants read the accounts of Jesus’ conflicts with the Pharisees and get the idea that He was utterly opposed to all tradition whatsoever. This is false. A close reading of passages such as Matthew 15:3-9 and Mark 7: 8-13 will reveal that He only condemned corrupt traditions of men, not tradition per se. He uses qualifying phrases like “your tradition,” “commandments of men,” “tradition of men,” as opposed to “the commandment of God.” St. Paul draws precisely the same contrast in Colossians 2:8: “See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.”

The New Testament explicitly teaches that traditions can be either good (from God) or bad (from men, when against God’s true traditions). Corrupt pharisaic teachings were a bad tradition (but many of their legitimate teachings were recognized by Jesus; see, e.g., Matthew 23:3). The spoken gospel and the apostolic writings which eventually were formulated as Holy Scripture (authoritatively recognized by the Church in 397 A. D. at the council of Carthage) were altogether good: the authentic Christian tradition as revealed by the incarnate God to the apostles.

The Greek word for “tradition” in the New Testament is paradosis. It occurs in Colossians 2:8, and in the following three passages:

1 Corinthians 11:2 (RSV) . . . maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. (NRSV, NEB, REB, NKJV, NASB all use “tradition".

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Thessalonians 3:6: Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

Note that St. Paul draws no qualitative distinction between written and oral tradition. He doesn’t regard oral Christian tradition as bad and undesirable. Rather, this false belief is, ironically, itself an unbiblical “tradition of men.”
 

The Learner

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God's Word mandates Tradition. Your problem is changing the meaning of "Tradition" into a dirty word. The Bible doesn't do that. Tradition, properly understood, (which it never is with Hislopites like you), comes from the same divine wellspring as Scripture, it's not an add on. God is not limited to ONE means of transmitting His Word. It's all the same WORD.

Many Protestants (especially anti-Catholic ones) hold, by and large, the view that Scripture and sacred, apostolic tradition are somehow unalterably opposed to each other and, for all practical purposes, mutually exclusive. This is yet another example of a false dichotomy which Protestantism often (unfortunately) tends to create (e.g., faith vs. works, matter vs. spirit). The Bible, however, presupposes tradition as an entity prior to and larger than itself, from which it is derived, not as some sort of “dirty word.”

It is one thing to wrongly assert that Catholic tradition (the beliefs and dogmas which the Church claims to have preserved intact passed down from Christ and the apostles) is corrupt, excessive and unbiblical. It is quite another to think that the very concept of tradition is contrary to the outlook of the Bible and pure, essential Christianity. This is, broadly speaking, a popular and widespread variant of the distinctive Protestant viewpoint of sola Scriptura, or “Scripture Alone,” which was one of the rallying cries of the Protestant Revolt in the 16th century. It remains the supreme principle of authority, or “rule of faith” for evangelical Protestants today. Sola Scriptura by its very nature tends to pit tradition against the Bible.

First of all, one might also loosely define tradition as the authoritative and authentic Christian history of theological doctrines and devotional practices. Christianity, like Judaism before it, is fundamentally grounded in history: in the earth-shattering historical events in the life of Jesus Christ (the incarnation, miracles, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, etc.). Eyewitnesses (Lk 1:1-2, Acts 1:1-3, 2 Pet 1:16-18) communicated these true stories to the first Christians, who in turn passed them on to other Christians (under the guidance of the Church’s authority) down through the ages. Therefore, Christian tradition, defined as authentic Church history, is unavoidable.

Many Protestants read the accounts of Jesus’ conflicts with the Pharisees and get the idea that He was utterly opposed to all tradition whatsoever. This is false. A close reading of passages such as Matthew 15:3-9 and Mark 7: 8-13 will reveal that He only condemned corrupt traditions of men, not tradition per se. He uses qualifying phrases like “your tradition,” “commandments of men,” “tradition of men,” as opposed to “the commandment of God.” St. Paul draws precisely the same contrast in Colossians 2:8: “See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.”

The New Testament explicitly teaches that traditions can be either good (from God) or bad (from men, when against God’s true traditions). Corrupt pharisaic teachings were a bad tradition (but many of their legitimate teachings were recognized by Jesus; see, e.g., Matthew 23:3). The spoken gospel and the apostolic writings which eventually were formulated as Holy Scripture (authoritatively recognized by the Church in 397 A. D. at the council of Carthage) were altogether good: the authentic Christian tradition as revealed by the incarnate God to the apostles.

The Greek word for “tradition” in the New Testament is paradosis. It occurs in Colossians 2:8, and in the following three passages:



Note that St. Paul draws no qualitative distinction between written and oral tradition. He doesn’t regard oral Christian tradition as bad and undesirable. Rather, this false belief is, ironically, itself an unbiblical “tradition of men.”
I think we agree it is Apostolic Traditons.
 

The Learner

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Can you show where these 'Apostolic Traditions' come from is the real question..
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

NT writings are in the Apostolic Fathers AKA Ante-Nicene Fathers whom the Apostles taught.
 

Illuminator

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2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

NT writings are in the Apostolic Fathers AKA Ante-Nicene Fathers whom the Apostles taught.

How did Paganism get into the church? A similar question would be: Why Does Hobie Worship the Cookie Monster?

 
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Illuminator

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Can you show where these 'Apostolic Traditions' come from is the real question..
Apostolic Tradition comes from the same divine wellspring as Sacred Scripture, it's not an add-on. God is not limited to ONE means of transmitting the divine message. What Jesus and the Apostles SPOKE is just as important as what was written.
 
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Illuminator

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Yes, but it was also used by the church of Rome to allow them to continue pagan worship they were familiar with.. Paganism In Christianity
There you go again with the pagan influence fallacy. Nobody allowed pagan worship, it was so disgusting the Hebrew Christians kept there distance.
Your link regurgitates many lies of Alexander Hislop. It's false claims are exposed here:

Opponents of the Church often attempt to discredit Catholicism by attempting to show similarities between it and the beliefs or practices of ancient paganism. This fallacy is frequently committed by Fundamentalists against Catholics; by Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and others against both Protestants and Catholics; and by atheists and skeptics against both Christians and Jews.
read more here
 
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The Learner

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Yes, but it was also used by the church of Rome to allow them to continue pagan worship they were familiar with.. Paganism In Christianity
There is lots of trash on that site. Sir James Frazer, The Golden Bough is Garbage.

" Frazer recounted many accounts of different tribal and historical religions, doing his best to demonstrate that the idea of a god-man, who died and came back to life again, was extremely common throughout history, typically as a ‘corn god’ myth, and that this was of course a product of the evolution of human society. Christianity, he claimed, was simply one more version of this story, to be filed along with Adonis, Atys, Dionysus, Isis and Osiris, John Barleycorn and various others.
...
was careful not to quite explicitly state, safely disregard the idea that Jesus of Nazareth was actually God’s Son. Science was on our side! Science is win!! Religion is fairy tale!!!
...
(3) In Lewis’s classic trilemma, set out in Mere Christianity, he asserts that nobody who made the claims about himself that Jesus of Nazareth made could have been a great moral teacher. Jesus claimed to be God, to have seen Abraham, to be able to forgive sins, to be the one who would preside over the final judgment of the entire human race. Jesus claimed that ‘all authority in heaven and earth has been given to me’ (Mathew 28:18). Anyone who said these things would either be a raving lunatic ‘on the level of a man who believed he is a poached egg’, or a wicked deceiver, or else the claims were true. Hence Lewis’ classic trilemma, ‘mad, bad or God.’"

My Boss, Wife is kicking me off bye
 
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Illuminator

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Amazon gave no info on the book so I went to the author's web page. I found this:

Institutional Church
This term refers to a religious system (not a particular group of people). An institutional church is one that operates primarily as an organization that exists above, beyond, and independent of the members who populate it. It is constructed more on programs and rituals than on relationships. It is led by set-apart professionals (“ministers” or “clergy”) who are aided by volunteers (“laity”). We also use the terms contemporary church, traditional church, present-day church, and modern church to refer to the institutional church of our day.​

"An institutional church is one that operates primarily as an organization that exists above, beyond, and independent of the members who populate it." describes Freemasonry, and tries to impose his agenda laden definition on what an institution is. But you have to buy his book to find out who and what pagan practices are going on, if any.

Wedding rings are of pagan origin. Does that prove anyone wearing a wedding ring is conceding to paganism?
 
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quietthinker

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How did Paganism get into the church?​

The love of our doing!
 

Hobie

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There is lots of trash on that site. Sir James Frazer, The Golden Bough is Garbage.

" Frazer recounted many accounts of different tribal and historical religions, doing his best to demonstrate that the idea of a god-man, who died and came back to life again, was extremely common throughout history, typically as a ‘corn god’ myth, and that this was of course a product of the evolution of human society. Christianity, he claimed, was simply one more version of this story, to be filed along with Adonis, Atys, Dionysus, Isis and Osiris, John Barleycorn and various others.
...
was careful not to quite explicitly state, safely disregard the idea that Jesus of Nazareth was actually God’s Son. Science was on our side! Science is win!! Religion is fairy tale!!!
...
(3) In Lewis’s classic trilemma, set out in Mere Christianity, he asserts that nobody who made the claims about himself that Jesus of Nazareth made could have been a great moral teacher. Jesus claimed to be God, to have seen Abraham, to be able to forgive sins, to be the one who would preside over the final judgment of the entire human race. Jesus claimed that ‘all authority in heaven and earth has been given to me’ (Mathew 28:18). Anyone who said these things would either be a raving lunatic ‘on the level of a man who believed he is a poached egg’, or a wicked deceiver, or else the claims were true. Hence Lewis’ classic trilemma, ‘mad, bad or God.’"

My Boss, Wife is kicking me off bye
So throw out the baby with the bath water...hmm, there is much truth in there..
 
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Hobie

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Amazon gave no info on the book so I went to the author's web page. I found this:

Institutional Church
This term refers to a religious system (not a particular group of people). An institutional church is one that operates primarily as an organization that exists above, beyond, and independent of the members who populate it. It is constructed more on programs and rituals than on relationships. It is led by set-apart professionals (“ministers” or “clergy”) who are aided by volunteers (“laity”). We also use the terms contemporary church, traditional church, present-day church, and modern church to refer to the institutional church of our day.​

"An institutional church is one that operates primarily as an organization that exists above, beyond, and independent of the members who populate it." describes Freemasonry, and tries to impose his agenda laden definition on what an institution is. But you have to buy his book to find out who and what pagan practices are going on, if any.

Wedding rings are of pagan origin. Does that prove anyone wearing a wedding ring is conceding to paganism?
Yes, 'Freemasonry', thats the problem. Hmmm....
 
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The Learner

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Amazon gave no info on the book so I went to the author's web page. I found this:

Institutional Church
This term refers to a religious system (not a particular group of people). An institutional church is one that operates primarily as an organization that exists above, beyond, and independent of the members who populate it. It is constructed more on programs and rituals than on relationships. It is led by set-apart professionals (“ministers” or “clergy”) who are aided by volunteers (“laity”). We also use the terms contemporary church, traditional church, present-day church, and modern church to refer to the institutional church of our day.​

"An institutional church is one that operates primarily as an organization that exists above, beyond, and independent of the members who populate it." describes Freemasonry, and tries to impose his agenda laden definition on what an institution is. But you have to buy his book to find out who and what pagan practices are going on, if any.

Wedding rings are of pagan origin. Does that prove anyone wearing a wedding ring is conceding to paganism?
Amazon reviews shows that the author is not orthodox. "If it isn't in the NT it is unscriptural." to forbid music in the church.

"
Frank Viola likes house church. Using the flawed proof texting method that he so vehemently criticizes in the book, he proves that it is the "only" New Testament way to do church. If he cites 1 Corinthians 14:26 one time he cites it 100.

Then in other places he sounds so much like Alexandar Cambell I wonder if he came from the Cambellite movement. Cambellites like to say, "If it isn't in the NT it is unscriptural." (Which is why the strict ones still don't use pianos in their meetings)"

"This book had the potential to be a lot of things: historical, religious, inspirational, and so on, but in trying to be all of them, it was none of them. It had a few good points (chapter 11, about how modern day Christians tend to approach the bible out of context and as a jigsaw puzzle, was rather interesting), but overall I'd have to say that the constant tone of "contemporary christianity sucks because of x, y, and z and our way is better because we get back to the original meaning" got to be irritating as I progressed through the book."

"
Did I learn a lot about the church history and it's practices? Yes. However, the historical analysis from someone who (as far as I know) is not trained in such practices makes the authority of the book suspect. In addition, the author was quite "unsanitary" when it came to making his arguments - he would be making a valid historical point, and then in the next sentence, attach religious-toned language about how following God/Christ was supposed to be this way. In certain ways, it feels (now that I think about it) that he was guilty of committing his own sin - of using historical analysis in a "jigsaw" puzzle method in order to make his point. It's either one way or the other, but it can't be both, especially when you are trying to trace the historical development of something objectively to prove a point.

Another issue I had with the book was the issue of citation. I got the impression that the author felt that if he just cited sources to support his point, then he'd done all his homework regarding how to "prove" his point, and then he would just go on to the next point. It was frustrating because there was no causal analysis that I'm used to having when I read historical texts."

"
I couldn't finish it. The authors talk a lot about facts, but give very little proof - or take things out of context to prove their point. Neither author is a Church historian by training and it shows in this book.

quote:
"[Until the year 300]Neither did they have a special priestly caste that was set apart to serve God." pg 12

First off I doubt either the Catholic or Orthodox church would call the priestly function a "caste" - perhaps "calling" would have been a bit less abrasive. But, more importantly, where is their documentation to make such a statement? Did they forget about Polycarp?? Ignatius? Did the church come up with the office of Bishops and Presbyters just in time for the Council of Nicea?

Then I found this review. This pretty much sums it up for me.

If you want to learn about Early Church first read the Apostolic Father's themselves: The Apostolic Fathers"
 
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The Learner

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"This book attempts to shockingly explain why everything you are familiar with in the Christian church is actually rooted in paganism, and is therefore harmful to the believer, but fails in its logical conclusions, that are at best results of ignorant mistakes in data it presents with objective knowledge, or at worst, deceptive omissions. I wasn’t expecting how much I would dislike this book. It came highly recommended, so I hope the time I’m spending here will help anyone else considering reading it, or maybe even mislead by its conclusions.
In just the intro, I found myself onboard with many of the complaints of the modern churches’ characteristics, but was a little concerned with what I could predict would be what the book would show as a conclusion. I was right in those concerns, but I wasn’t prepared for how bad it was going to get.

The book follows a trail of common Christian church generalizations and various liturgical practices, and with each example, the authors’ declaring the pagan origin, and the objectively harmful consequences of its participation.
Sometimes deeper theological points are admittedly excluded in an attempt to speak only of proposed unsuspecting origin and misuse, but the blanket statements are not void of their personal animosity, as exemplified in the claim that early church communion was not ceremonial and later became “magical”.
There is some historical research on church traditions. Unfortunately anything the authors can show that are remotely similar to, or dating back to, Greek/Roman pagan practices is necessarily bad and harmful to Christian’s: ie; expository sermons, meeting in a building other than a house, having any sort of clergy/pastor/etc. The primary charges against modern Christianity from the authors, and my criticisms of those charges, are as follows:
-Tradition: There are plenty of problems in various church traditions but this book makes “tradition” necessarily a bad word. Personally, I am not a fan of many specific traditions found throughout Christendom (from “high church” to “contemporary services), nor am I a fan of evangelical celebrities then and now, but the authors are creating a tradition, or harkening back to proposed early church traditions, while arguing against them. Anything deemed “tradition” (ie, the traditions the authors don’t like) is necessarily pagan and bad. They fail to see how traditions inevitably change when people are allowed to bring their various cultural practices into the global body of the church, especially once legalization of being an open Christian becomes a possibility. This is historically the case from 400AD churches and the Reformation, to churches today in China, Africa, and the Middle East.
-Church buildings: To the authors, a church building is necessarily bad. Their objective prescription is a home church environment, because that’s where the early church met. What they fail to mention throughout the book, is that the early church was persecuted, so the hidden element of their actions aren’t taken into account when considering the use of distinct and advertised Christian buildings.
-Sermons: Every sense of preaching is condemned, in preference to an open group exchange. According to the authors, sermons are “not found in the Bible.” This completely ignores where, recoded in the Book of Acts, Paul makes an apologetic sermon referencing pagan beliefs of the culture, and Peter preaching to the crowd at Pentecost referencing and teaching directly from Old Testament prophecy. Most especially it ignores our greatest example of Jesus and The Sermon on the Mount. Expository preaching is said to come exclusively from Greek tradition, and therefore bad, yet missed the end of Luke when Jesus teaches on the road to Emmaus how the Old Testament is all about Him. In attempt to show a way out of relying on sermons, the reader is told to (Vaguely) “encounter Jesus.” There isn’t anything necessarily wrong with a home church, but the authors use any perceived benefits, and use in history, to eradicate anything like sermons, and even call them objectively wrong.
-Liturgy: the book is insulting to all liturgy, insisting that all of it comes from pagan origin (therefore bad) and could not have come from within the early church, including the aforementioned preaching and communion as a sacrament.
-Denominations: There is a significant criticism of denominations as if they are only a result of later church creations. While there are ample reasons to criticize certain denominations and reasons for divisions, the authors act as if the early church was never divided. It isn’t accurate as the New Testament is full of divisions that could be called different denominations. For example, splits where different churches were following different apostles (ie, “I am of apollos,”etc.). Also the fights against the Judaizers/circumcision party in the New Testament, and the vast amounts of early church writing against heresy, stand as examples that these divisions are nothing new and not a necessary result of “pagans”.
-Preachers: The authors state that no one in the early church would have imagined a “pastor” for the church, as if Rabbis (because of their additional religious knowledge, were always sought after and looked to) weren’t a thing, that Jesus’ *sermons* didn’t exist (along with Peter and Paul’s sermons in Acts), and the early church wasn’t persecuted (keeping them hidden in homes rather than having a public display of their faith). What the authors fail to mention throughout the book, is that the early church was persecuted, so the hidden element isn’t taken into account when being against certain clothing to distinguish Christianity from other groups, or clergy from parishioners, or the use of distinct buildings.

I also have general issues with the presentation of the information. There are a handful of quotes without references, and Atheist Historian Will Durant’s words on the church seems quoted more than any other individual person. Religious history doesn’t need agreement to be conveyed accurately, but in many cases, this one included, the data is tainted by personal feelings. The authors call out theologians for quoting pagan philosophers, and uses it to make the statement, “regardless of how much we wish to deny it, contemporary theology is a blending of Christian thought and Pagan philosophy.” Following this logical conclusion, we could make the statement that “this book’s theology is a blending of Christian history and atheistic misconception.”
There is also several moments used to insult Martin Luther and the Reformation.
As well, they state that Jesus’ teaching is “sporadic and spontaneous,” which removes eternal purpose and intent to everything Jesus did.

In conclusion:
Don’t get me wrong, there is a lot wrong with church trends and associated costs, but I don’t agree that a set aside place of worship is necessarily; wrong, of pagan origins, nor should be necessarily considered Constantinian. A lot of the complaints about general evangelical issues are correct, and somethings mentioned need to be criticized (teachings on tithing today, believer’s baptisms, sinner’s prayer, problems in Sunday schools and youth pastors, and Darby proof texting), but the objective conclusions that nothing good comes from listening to a pastor or participating in a liturgy outside of a home church without a central preacher, or that they are harmful and detracting from faith, is absolutely false and baseless.
In the author’s logic, all possible abuses in the church are necessary consequences to having a church building or a pastor, but again ignores any issues the early church had and dealt with.
Sweeping statements like “Jesus and His disciples knew nothing of special clothing.. (ie) wearing special garb for religious purposes,” show that the authors have no fundamental understanding of God’s people under the mosaic covenant, even if littered with qualifying loaded terms.
All in all, this book is as full of cherry picking and proof texting history, as the author’s accuse institutional churches."
 
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