That would all depend on who the "elect" are referring to. "Elect" is a general term that has been referred to Israel, believers both living and dead, and even angels at one point (1 Timothy 5:21). Considering that Matt 24:29–31 is nestled in between Jesus talking about the Great Tribulation (i.e., Jacob's Trouble) (Matt 24:15–26) and The Parable of the Fig Tree (the fig tree is symbolic of Israel) (Matt 24:32–35), it's not a stretch to conclude the "elect" refers to Israel. The church is not mentioned again after Revelation 3. Instead, more general terms like "elect" and "saints" are used. Preaching is done by the sealed 144,000 tribes of Israel and even angels (Rev 14:6), but the church is nowhere to be found.
How Did the False Pre-trib Rapture Get Started?
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That would all depend on who the "elect" are referring to. "Elect" is a general term that has been referred to Israel, believers both living and dead, and even angels at one point (1 Timothy 5:21). Considering that Matt 24:29–31 is nestled in between Jesus talking about the Great Tribulation (i.e., Jacob's Trouble) (Matt 24:15–26) and The Parable of the Fig Tree (the fig tree is symbolic of Israel) (Matt 24:32–35), it's not a stretch to conclude the "elect" refers to Israel. The church is not mentioned again after Revelation 3. Instead, more general terms like "elect" and "saints" are used. Preaching is done by the sealed 144,000 tribes of Israel and even angels (Rev 14:6), but the church is nowhere to be found.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
And yet teh rapture is not HIs coming and His coming will be visible when He returns to earth, that is clearly established in HIs Word.
Well I will not be boastful enough to speak for all pretribbers, but I do know that the rapture is not any part of His Second coming. It is simply Jesus descending for HIs church to bring us to heaven, have us stand before teh bema judgment, get our robes, get our crowns and then before Jesus physically returns, we as the church marry Him in heaven.
Well in Revelation Jesus physically returns to earth! Every eye will see HIm as is written! the rapture is not so.
Well Jeremiah 31 is the text of teh New Covenant! none of it has been fulfilled yet! It is an Israeli covenant as said in the passage and we gentiles are partakers in the covenant as Paul said in romans 11.
Yes symbolic language does use symbols. But that has given many believers an unhole license to take things that should be understood as literal and make them symbolic.
One will never go wrong if they use this rule in seeking to understand SCripture:
The common sense Golden Rule of Interpretation
Posted on March 30, 2014YOu allegorized for you said teh 490 years was complete in Jesus day. It could not possibly be and yo0u have to allegorize to make the Scriptures fit your timeline instead of making you rtimeline fit within the clear written woprd of God.
When spoken of in the aggregate yes they would be called plural. when spoken of individually, they would be in teh singular! the eleventh horn is singular therefore we must conclude He is not a series of rulers as you allege but an indiividual ruler as is written. It is not that hard. Just read what is written and accept what is written according to teh rule I cited above.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Good find.
It is a chore keeping postribbers honest.
They pull " mcDonald" , Lahaye, Darby, Schofield, and dead ancient men like gunslingers.
All extra biblical nothing burgers.
But those side shows are ACTUALLY PILLARS of their doctrine.
I read McDonald vision/ dream, or whatever it is called.
Her "vision" was a pretrib rapture.
Her DOCTRINE was that the church must go through the trib for "cleansing".
( you must can not make this stuff up that postribbers ,in such folly, make as their pillars)
As I remember there 2 versions of her dream/ vision.
I think the one postribbers prefer has omission/ additives.
SMH
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
.see this is what I am talking about..
Thank you.
The church ancients were frequently SPECULATING.
Iraneaos sp? Wrote the book on the heretics of his day.
Tons of error in those ancient dead men that postribbers have built HALF THEIR DOCTRINE ON.
We can say clearly that postribbers , find some ancient agreeing with their doctrine of omissions, and think they actually proved something.
It is nothing short of appalling to cherry pick some ancient dead men, that base an idea on speculation , and OMISSIONS, and actually take that nothing burger to the bank.
It's not unreasonable to me to think that the understanding of the things concerning the end of the age could increase as we near the end of the age.
Much love!
Which is exactly the error I was pointing to in your belief on men's false Preterist doctrines. The Luke 21:20 description is NOT about the "abomination of desolation" event which happen prior... to that "days of vengeance" which is about the 'last day' of this present world when Jesus returns.
Thus your view hasn't figured out yet that the time of the "abomination of desolation" is at the start... of the "great tribulation" as written, and the "days of vengeance" is after... the "great tribulation", also as written in Isaiah 61.
For Those In Christ (not for Randy since he defaults to men's doctrines of Preterism instead):
In Luke 4, Lord Jesus at the start of His Ministry, went into the temple at Jerusalem and read a prophecy about His 1st coming from the Book of Isaiah.
Luke 4:16-21
16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up: and, as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto Him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written,
18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."
20 And He closed the book, and He gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on Him.
21 And He began to say unto them, "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."
KJV
Here is what He quoted from Isaiah 61, but ONLY the portion in 'blue'. Jesus closed the Book before He got to the portion in 'red'...
Isa 61:1-2
61 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
KJV
All that above in 'blue' is what He quoted at the start of His Ministry for His 1st coming.
But that above in 'red', He closed the book and did not read it, why?? Because that part in 'red' is for His 2nd coming, which still today has not happened yet.
Thus looking at Luke 21:20-22 verses, that is NOT about the "abomination of desolation" event that happens to start... the time of "great tribulation" (3.5 years). Those Luke 21:20-22 verses are pointing to that Isaiah 61:2 verse section in 'red' above.
Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
KJV
Even that phrase above in 'orange' is easy to know that it is pointing to the very 'last day' of this present world when Jesus returns per the "day of vengeance" part in Isaiah 61:2 that He did not... read at His 1st coming.
This is actually very simple, with allowing God's Word to interpret God's Word.
At the time Jesus spoke these things, I can't imagine an Israelite applying "the chosen" to Gentiles. There was the chosen nation, Israel, and all the others, the Gentiles.
Jesus prophesied the gathering of the chosen in Matthew 24, and the gathering of the nations in Matthew 25.
The term "elect" would not be applied to the church until Paul's writings, a number of years later.
Much love!
That's nonsense, and only an excuse to allow men's false doctrines to enter into that Scripture.
What Jesus said there in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 is perfectly in line with what Apostle Paul taught about Christ's coming to gather His Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. So are you gonna' try and say Paul wasn't speaking to Christ's Church either??
Brethren in Christ, ask yourself about this... when did what Jesus revealed in His Olivet discourse vs. Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.4 come first? What Jesus said was first. Does that mean that Apostle Paul got his teaching of the event of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church from Lord Jesus? You bet it does!!!
And for the doubters that are still hard-headed:
1. the dead in Christ shall rise first -- Jesus brings the asleep saints with Him from heaven when He descends...
1 Thess 4:13-16
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV
Jesus' Olivet Discourse Parallel:
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
Note where they are gathered FROM above. That's about the asleep saints that Paul said Jesus will bring with Him from heaven when He descends, per the above 1 Thess.4:13-16 Scripture.
2. What About the Saints Still Alive On Earth On That Day?:
1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
Jesus' Olivet Discourse Parallel:
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV
As can be seen, one version of Christ's Olivet discourse reveals His coming to gather HIS CHURCH from one end of heaven to the other (asleep saints He brings with Him), and the other version of Christ's Olivet discourse reveals His coming to gather HIS CHURCH that's still alive on earth, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. And that is EXACTLY the same idea that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
On the contrary, my view is precisely that the AoD is at the start of the Great Tribulation! Why are you misrepresenting my view??
But I would dispute your claim that Luke 21:20 is not about the AoD event. The words "abomination of desolation" is not used there, but what is there is representative of the same part of the conversation as that Matthew and Mark uses to describe the "abomination of desolation." Compare for yourself:
Luke 21.19 Stand firm, and you will win life.
20 When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Can you see where Luke puts his description of what is being said? It is right between "stand firm" and "flee." Jesus was talking about an event where Luke, Matthew, and Mark heard Jesus describe an "abomination of desolation" described as "Jerusalem surrounded by armies."
Jesus said both things. Luke mentioned the "armies," and both Matthew and Mark indicated that these armies were an "abomination of desolation." Luke simply went into more detail about what the "abomination of desolation" meant, so that there would be no question about what it is.
Here is how Matthew and Mark place this part of the conversation, also between "stand firm" and "flee."
Matt 24.13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Mark 13.13 the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee.
"Stand firm" and "flee" are bookends enclosing the main subject for Luke, Matthew, and Mark. And that main subject is described by Luke as "armies," while Matthew and Mark describe it as the "abomination of desolation." It is the *same subject!* A reasonable person would at the very least consider the possibility that these two different descriptions are describing the same subject. I hope you are a reasonable person?
I'm not a Preterist except by your own faulty definition. I do not adhere to the school of Preterism. I do share with Preterism their belief that the Olivet Discourse is focused upon the Roman armies in 66-70 AD.
If you agreed with me you would not necessarily be called a "Preterist," nor would the early Church Fathers be called "Preterists," since the school of Preterism did not yet exist yet. Preterists went much farther with their beliefs about what biblical prophecies have actually been fulfilled, including much of the book of Revelation.
I do not agree with that. I believe much of the book of Revelation is still to be fulfilled *in the future.*
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Not in Luke 21 it isn't, simply because you claim verse 20 is the AoD when it has NO mention of it, but instead gives a summary of the events leading up to the "days of vengeance" which only comes AFTER the great tribulation. So quit acting like you've not pushing a fabrication that is 'outside' that actual Scripture.
Dispute all you want, but the "abomination of desolation" phrase is NOT in the Luke 21 chapter at all.
Now once you ADMIT... that "abomination of desolation" phrase is NOT in Luke 21, then I'd be willing to continue this conversation.
Until then, you can keep the false Preterist doctrines that taught you to believe something 'outside' the actual written Bible Scripture, and that whether or not you want to recognize that what you are saying is a doctrine from men's Preterist theories. (And I believe the Historicists also have that theory about Luke 21. So wherever it originated, that's where they both got it.)
How Preterism Surmised To ADD The AOD Phrase Into Luke 21:
Look at the relevant Scripture...
Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
The "abomination of desolation" phrase that Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel in the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 versions of His Olivet discourse is not written here in Luke 21. In both Matt.24 and Mark 12 versions, Jesus gave that above command that when they 'see' the "abomination of desolation" in the "holy place", for those in Judea to flee to the mountains.
Thus what some deceived soul in the seminaries did was wrongly ASSUME... that Jesus was also speaking of the "abomination of desolation" event with that word "desolation" in the above Luke 21:20 verse about the destruction by armies. That deceived person obviously lacks the ability of reading comprehension, and did not grasp the importance of catching how even different versions of an event written in God's Word can have varying amounts of information.
Think about it, those who just skim... over a topic in God's Word in a later Book may simply pass off a later version of the same topic, thinking they already know about it because they read about it before in an earlier Book of The Bible. That means they will MISS any pertinent information that The LORD gave in the later Book. Many brethren actually do this between The Gospel Books and Christ's Book of Revelation, and even skip later info in Revelation in favor of how Jesus revealed or didn't reveal it earlier in The Gospel.
An example is with the destruction of the "tares" in Matthew 13. In Jesus' explanation in Matthew 13, He didn't mention anything about His future reign of "a thousand years" that will happen first prior to the destruction of the "tares". So Preterists choose to believe what Jesus said in the Matthew 13 destruction, but not the Revelation 20 "thousand years" reign. "Ah, we'll just leave that "thousand years" reign period out of our theology, since Jesus failed to mention it back in Matthew 13," is how they actually think.
That is also their error in their thinking about this Luke 21:20-22 Scripture. Just because Jesus' warning for those in Judea to flee to the mountains is there, they automatically assume Jesus was pointing to the "abomination of desolation" IDOL being setup in the holy place in Jerusalem, when that event is not what that "desolation" by armies on the last day is about, which IS... there in Luke 21 verses 20 and 22.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
KJV
I mean, just how... can someone be so deceived to not recognize that Luke 21:22 event only happens on the very LAST DAY of this world?
I think Mark S. made a good point. Jesus was speaking to a Jewish audience. They would have understood the elect to mean Israel. When Paul was speaking, he was speaking to a Christian audience. Jesus was speaking of the Second Coming, while Paul was speaking of the rapture. The issue here is that you are conflating the rapture and the Second Coming, but I would make a distinction between the two.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I'm not acting at all. On the other hand, you've not corrected your mistake. You falsely suggested this:
"Which is exactly the error I was pointing to in your belief on men's false Preterist doctrines. The Luke 21:20 description is NOT about the "abomination of desolation" event which happen prior... to that "days of vengeance" which is about the 'last day' of this present world when Jesus returns."
You here suggest my "error" which is "my belief" in "Preterist doctrines." I agree with *some* Preterist beliefs, but I do not hold to Preterism as a school of theology.
You here suggest my "error" which is "my belief" in the "abomination event which you claim happens prior to the "days of vengeance" which is "about the 'last day' of this present world." You here assume that I do *not* believe in an AoD that happens prior to the the "days of vengeance" at the end of the age.
As I told you, I firmly believe that the AoD in 70 AD was the start of the time of Jewish Punishment, ie the "Great Tribulation," which leads to the end of the age. My view of the AoD is not at the end of the age, but it certainly precedes it and leads up to it, beginning a long period of Jewish tribulation or punishment. We have different meanings of these things, just as the early Church Fathers did. And it was *not* called Preterism, nor did they call their beliefs an "error!"
I didn't dispute it at all. I pointed out that in the same place Matthew and Mark used "abomination of desolation" Luke described armies surrounding Jerusalem. They are obviously describing the same event.
Luke chose to use a more detailed description to explain Jesus' use of the term "abomination of desolation." Matthew and Mark assumed readers would know the reference to Dan 9.27. Dan 9.26 explained what the "abomination of desolation" was in Dan 9.27--they were the "people of the ruler to come," ie armies.
I said so in the last post. Don't be ridiculous. Do you even read what I wrote? Here's what I said:
The words "abomination of desolation" is not used there, but what is there is representative of the same part of the conversation as that Matthew and Mark uses to describe the "abomination of desolation." Compare for yourself:
Get back with me when you've actually read what I wrote....
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Why are you arguing this with me? I'm not a Preterist. I'm not an Amillennial.
It seems to me that if Jesus was talking about "days" of vengeance, plural, then he can't be speaking of the last "day," singular, of the world?
You rejected answering my question, so I'll ask you again...
What Jesus said there in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 is perfectly in line with what Apostle Paul taught about Christ's coming to gather His Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. So are you gonna' try and say Paul wasn't speaking to Christ's Church either??
I don't have time for your Preterist doctrines of men, nor your continued denial that the "abomination of desolation" phrase is NOT in the Luke 21 Chapter, while you instead try to ADD it, which is a doctrine of Preterism, which your denial of being a Preterist is also a show that what you say is not to be trusted.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Anybody can read your false claims. You continue to claim I'm a Preterist, when I say I reject that school of eschatology. I've explained it in full, where I agree with Preterism and where I disagree with Preterism.
You continue to say I've denied that the Abomination of Desolation is in Luke 21, when I quoted to you exactly where I've admitted that. Nevertheless, you pretend you haven't read this, and just continue to claim the same thing.
Finally, you refuse to apologize for claiming I don't put the AoD before the "Great Tribulation." If you don't mean to say that you certainly have made no effort to clarify. Your sense of the "days of vengeance" may or may not be synonymous with the "Great Tribulation?"
At any rate, my sense of the "Great Tribulation," or "Days of Vengeance" has to do with the entire age, which *includes* the endtimes. So my sense of the AoD does in fact precede the Days of Vengeance.
You suggest that people are ludicrous for not admitting that the "days," plural, of vengeance are synonymous with the last "day," singular, of the age. A period of "days" cannot be synonymous with a single "day!"
I put no credence in your posts with respect to this matter. On other things we may very well agree.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
You should be ok with omissions of verses since you omit rev14. Jesus sitting on a cloud and matt24 examples of prejudgement.
You literally can not go there
One more time... I'll ask you...
What Jesus said there in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 is perfectly in line with what Apostle Paul taught about Christ's coming to gather His Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. So are you gonna' try and say Paul wasn't speaking to Christ's Church either??
For brethren who keep wondering why these type of debates and arguments must occur...
See what God said to the children of Israel in Judges 2 & 3 when they fell away from Him, and they allowed influence of the pagans around them to creep in, which God had warned them about. God finally said to them...
Judg 2:20-22
20 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and He said, "Because that this people hath transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto My voice;
21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:
22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not."
KJV
The reason why divisions among the brethren exists, and even cults that claim to represent the Christian Church exists, is as a test, to see 'who' we will listen to, either man, or God in His Word.
That Judges 2 prophecy by God still exists today, even among Christ's Church. The New Testament version of it is about Jesus' warning about wolves in sheep's clothing, and the hireling. Jude 4 about the unawares crept in that were 'ordained' to the condemnation of being against Christ, is another reference to this. Apostles Paul and Peter also warned about this matter involving Christ's Church (Acts 20:25-31; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 2:19; 2 John 7). In Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 Lord Jesus revealed about the false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan", those who say they are Jews, but are not.
That... is why these tests upon Christ's Faithful by Satan's workers, what Apostle Paul called the "mystery of iniquity", has to exist, to test us, to see if we will listen to our Heavenly Father and His Son in HIS Word, or not. Christianity is not a religion, it is about spiritual war, and if you believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior, then you are right in the heat of this battle, where you realize it or not.
See what God said to the children of Israel in Judges 2 & 3 when they fell away from Him, and they allowed influence of the pagans around them to creep in, which God had warned them about. God finally said to them...
Judg 2:20-22
20 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and He said, "Because that this people hath transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto My voice;
21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:
22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not."
KJV
The reason why divisions among the brethren exists, and even cults that claim to represent the Christian Church exists, is as a test, to see 'who' we will listen to, either man, or God in His Word.
That Judges 2 prophecy by God still exists today, even among Christ's Church. The New Testament version of it is about Jesus' warning about wolves in sheep's clothing, and the hireling. Jude 4 about the unawares crept in that were 'ordained' to the condemnation of being against Christ, is another reference to this. Apostles Paul and Peter also warned about this matter involving Christ's Church (Acts 20:25-31; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 2:19; 2 John 7). In Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 Lord Jesus revealed about the false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan", those who say they are Jews, but are not.
That... is why these tests upon Christ's Faithful by Satan's workers, what Apostle Paul called the "mystery of iniquity", has to exist, to test us, to see if we will listen to our Heavenly Father and His Son in HIS Word, or not. Christianity is not a religion, it is about spiritual war, and if you believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior, then you are right in the heat of this battle, where you realize it or not.
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