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How do you magically go from 2,500 to 200,000?

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality Forum' started by Enoch111, Mar 30, 2020.

  1. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    You know all this how? Does God tell you all these things? Surely you haven't gone across the US, looking at each death to see if it was properly reported.

    First you say we would need a "a totally independent investigation" if we want the truth; and then you pretend to know who's lying and about what. You're not making sense.

    You're the one who still doesn't get it. You scoffed at the 100,000 number. We're already past that. You were wrong. We're closing in on the 200,000 number; and all you have to say is, "It's all lies and more lies." That is wearing a little thin.

    Some people live with their heads in the sand. They won't learn until something hits them or people they know. Right now, churches are a major source of causing new cases of coronavirus. When a church gets hit, the people wake up and start to admit they were wrong. It is tragic that some people want to live in a world of their own imagination instead of the real world -- tragic that they need clobbered over the head before they come back to reality. Here's a story about churches; it's a rather long article, so I'll not quote it but only provide a link:

    Churches Were Eager to Reopen. Now They Are a Major Source of Coronavirus Cases.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
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  2. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the Bible tells us who is lying, and why.
    You don't have to go question anyone,
    just don't trust anyone.

    Jesus knew what is in man, and gave Himself over to no man...

    What is in man that Jesus Knew? - Ask Me Help Desk
    [​IMG]What is in man that Jesus Knew?
    Today's gospel lesson. Jaoh 2: 13. 24. but Jesus did not trust himself to them, 25. because he knew all men and needed no one to bear witness of man; for he himself knew what was in man.
     
  3. Cristo Rei

    Cristo Rei Well-Known Member

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    We know that people who are dying with covid are being marked as dying from covid because many doctors have said so.
    Even Dr Birx said this and the CDC says this... Look

     
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  4. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    As broadcast frequently also , many of the numbers , i.e. people dying of other causes, from medicine rx, to pneumonia, etc ,
    are being called dying of covid, when it is convenient or mandated by whatever authority is doing it, usually for power and for money, in deception every day.
     
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  5. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    I didn't need to watch it. I know there will always be a question about the causes of death. It's not a precise science. In Russia, doctors were basically told to keep fatalities from coronavirus to a minimum. That way, it would make Putin look as if he really knew how to handle the pandemic. If someone died (often without being tested), why bother testing the corpse? Just say he died from the flu or something else.

    The point is no one knows the numbers with complete certainty. I cannot agree with Enoch when he seems so sure he knows and that other people are lying.
     
  6. Cristo Rei

    Cristo Rei Well-Known Member

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    Well from what ive seen, heard and experienced iv reached a point were i no longer trust what the left has to say including the mainstream.
    From BLM to impeachments, covid and even the weather, they hype it up so much that nothing else matters.
    Worse thing is that no debate is allowed, if you don't agree your a bigot, a denier or a somethingphobe and you get censored, shamed or doxed.

    Debate is encouraged in science and forms the basis of politics. So unless debate is allowed i will simply reject that noise from the left
     
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  7. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    So you are viewing certain groups with suspicion. Are you justified in that, or has someone planted seeds of doubt in your mind?


    What about noise from the right? The OP was an attack on Dr. Fauci and others. I honestly don't get it. Why call him a "fear-monger" as Enoch called him? Because he doesn't agree with everything Trump says?

    Post #10 was more extravagant.

    I don't think anyone proved bias from the people reporting the numbers. I also doubt some "group of medical examiners" could investigate every death in the US. I suppose -- really I do -- that there's going to be some inaccuracy no matter who does the investigating. I think there were probably deaths that got attributed to coronavirus when people were never tested. If a hospital is overwhelmed and tests are in short supply, why test dead people? It might help to know if a dead person had it so the people who had been in contact with him could be told; but when conditions are overwhelming hospital staff, I think it's reasonable if some people's deaths got attributed to coronavirus even without tests. I can't see some "totally unbiased group" doing a better job.

    I also suspect some people died of it without going to a doctor. Especially early on when the symptoms weren't that well known, I think some people may have thought they had a cold or something, didn't consult with a doctor -- or if they did, they weren't diagnosed as having the coronavirus. That seems reasonable to me, especially in places where there were no known cases. If you lived in a town with no cases out in a rural area where not much contact existed with the rest of the country, who would suspect they had coronavirus?

    Some of the earliest cases did get investigated; and some deaths had been attributed to other causes. Doctors had no reason to suspect the deaths were the result of coronavirus. When Trump was saying it didn't pose a danger, now we know there were deaths from it that had been attributed to other causes. So far as Trump, doctors and the media knew, the coronavirus wasn't in those places. I don't see a conspiracy behind any of that. I don't blame Trump for not knowing. How could he? I also don't blame the doctors or media. How can we blame doctors that much when there wasn't even good tests for it yet?

    This shows how Enoch often exaggerates things. While we might like to believe the number of deaths was on a decline, that didn't make it so. On the contrary, this belief may have made things worse by leading people to abandoning caution. Some people said it was mostly over, everything could return to normal and there was no way they could be infected.

    Initially Democratic states (perhaps because of their cities) were hit the hardest. There was a learning curve involved. Yes, the Democrats made mistakes like Mayor De Blasio not shutting down schools early enough. What is sad is that Republican states didn't seem to learn from what happened in Democratic states. Now the rise in the number of cases is in Republican states. Governor Abbott (R) of Texas finally realized it would help to have people wear masks in certain situations. A large number of sheriffs rebelled and said they would not enforce the new regulations. It doesn't help that Trump has been seen only once wearing a mask. Refusing to wear masks is now a political statement, it seems. People are getting into fights over it.

    What Enoch also theorizes is that just because some people can have coronavirus without having symptoms is that it's a largely harmless thing.
    At the moment, young people are catching it now. That's probably from going to bars or the beach and so on. Over time however, they'll pass it on to older people.

    And too here we go again now the road of "cause of death." Some people get damage to internal organs, making them more vulnerable to other diseases later. So if they die later because of damage to lungs, heart or liver, do those cases get reported as deaths from coronavirus or from a respiritory problem, etc. It's a combination of factors that caused death, but someone makes a decision about what to write on the death certificate.

    https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/07/0...rt-damage-covid-19-may-leave-lingering-marks/

    John Swartzberg: One thing we didn’t anticipate was that the virus seems to accelerate a great deal of scarring in the lungs. And if lung tissue is replaced with scar tissue, it is no longer functional as regular pulmonary tissue, which translates to poor gas exchange. What we really fear is long-term shortness of breath that could extend anywhere from being very mild to severely limiting. There is also a disturbing report looking at computerized tomography (CT) scans of asymptomatic people that found they were left with some scar tissue. So, this could even be happening on a subclinical level.

    Another area is the heart. There is evidence now that the virus can directly attack heart muscle cells, and there’s also evidence that the cytokine storm that the virus triggers in the body not only damages the lungs, but can damage the heart. We don’t know what the long-term effects of that may be, but it could be that we will have a population of people who survive COVID-19 only to go on and have chronic cardiac problems.

    The third organ system that we’re now pretty clear about is the central nervous system. There is evidence of direct involvement of the virus with neurons, and also the cytokine storm and inflammatory mediators can cause damage to the central nervous system. This is manifesting itself not only in neurologic clinical findings, but also psychological findings. We’re seeing patients post-discharge struggling with psychological challenges, almost like PTSD. And, we’re also seeing some cognitive defects in some people that are very disturbing.

    We’ve also seen damage to the kidneys from the cytokines, and there is also evidence that the virus can bind to receptors in the liver, though we haven’t seen significant liver disease yet in patients. Finally, the gastrointestinal tract itself has virus receptors, and about 15% of people, especially children, present with gastrointestinal symptoms. But, so far, there is no evidence that this will cause persistent symptoms.


    No real evidence is given here. These are wild accusations based on what? It looks like paranoia to me. At first, Trump was complimenting the Chinese on their handling of the virus. Remember that? Was he wrong to compliment them? Maybe. On the other hand, maybe the Chinese (as well as the rest) were doing what they thought best. Maybe they made mistakes. Who's omniscient, especially about a new virus? When things got out of control in the US, then Trump started to attack the Chinese over it. My guess is he though he might get blamed for it, so he'd say everyone else was to blame and everyone else lied.

    Notice too how Enoch says "nothing should be trusted." He is trying to undermine confidence in others. That's also in line with how Trump has tried to undermine trust in the FBI, CIA, military intelligence, the courts, Congress and the media. If we say we can't trust anyone, where does that leave us? Trusting Trump and Trump alone?

    I think Trump's strategy to make Americans lack confidence in everyone except him has backfired. He got a lot of people suspicious of government, media and everyone else; but he managed to alienate a lot of people by those attacks. He's even alienated some of the people who voted for him in 2016. They trusted him in 2016 but found out he didn't keep his promises to them.

    While I am no fan of the leadership of BLM, I would not say some of the things Trump has said about them. There are people of all races who agree in part with BLM, who want racial equality. They don't agree with the socialist or Marxist ideas of the people who started BLM. They are going to find it hard to vote for Trump because of how he has attacked BLM as if anyone connected with it is a devil.
     
  8. Josho

    Josho Millennial Christian Staff Member

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    I think many are being silly, a lot of people still think the virus is a hoax or they are treating it just like a little cold or flu.

    There is also the other case of "we won't get the virus because God will protect us," but then many step over the line by doing something silly on purpose.

    If you are going to do something silly like throwing an aerosol can in a fire on purpose, you just may get hurt or end up hurting someone else.

    We still got to be sensible.


    It can also be said, medical experts aren't just medical experts for no reason, these are trained qualified professionals. Some politicians may voice their opinions who aren't trained qualified medical professionals. If people want to ignore the medical advice given by the professionals, they are doing it at their own risk.
     
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  9. historyb

    historyb Well-Known Member

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    The problem here in the States is that our experts routinely lie, hold back information, and have their own agendas. The "experts" here are not objective and tell selective information keeping fear here at the highest levels. So we really can trust absolutely no one.
     
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  10. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    The OP said Birx and Fauci were wrong about saying the number of deaths could be 200,000 by the end of this year. Were they right or wrong? Never mind trying to read their minds or figure out their "agendas." Were they right or wrong? I'd say Enoch was wrong to think they had to be wrong. What was Enoch's qualifications in the first place? What makes him think he's an expert on viruses? Why would I trust him more than what our top doctors say?
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
  11. Cristo Rei

    Cristo Rei Well-Known Member

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    By "certain groups" u mean the far left but im a skeptical person to begin with. I hope for the best but am ready for the worse.
    Sure i have seeds of doubt in my mind, planted there by people who have let me down in the past, people who have abused me, harassed me, lied to me, betray me, used me... Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me...

    Am i justified in not trusting the far left... Well let's see, they don't accept any opposing opinions, they refuse to discuss anything, they call me things like bigot, xenophobe and other outrageous things, they push Marxist ideas, they are anti-Christian, etc.
    I used to vote for the left but I don't see why i should believe them anymore when they continue down this path...

    U mite be ok with experts being shut down and silenced for giving their opinions.
    Not me. That only proves that they are hiding something.

    Im sorry but after our state coroner told us that my cuz didn't die with covid, that only 50 people were allowed at the church, 10 at the cemetery and even less at their home i don't care about the covid propaganda anymore.

    Did the lockdowns cause my cousins suicide? Did they contribute? I will never know for sure but i suspect they did

    What about all the experts who have differing opinions? Are they just silly quacks? Why are they being shut down?
    What about the fact that more people are dying from lockdowns than from covid? Do their lives matter?
    Should we sacrifice 5 young lives for 1 old covid life? How about 20 young lives for one old one?

    Covid kills an old person who had only 1 year left to live...
    Lockdowns kill young people who have up to 60 years left to live...

    Everyone i know has been hurt by these lockdowns yet i don't even know one person who has had this phantom virus.

    This scientist breaks down the facts that they don't want you to hear


    Calling people silly for getting a second opinion is in itself very silly i would say.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2020
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  12. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    When I see someone using certain phrases, it suggests to me they're listening to sources that use those phrases. For example, people on the left starting using the phrase "alt-right" a while ago; and I don't know who started it, but I started hearing several liberals use it. I can't I know exactly what it means. People on the right pick up jargon from their surroundings too. If I hear "main-stream media," it tells me more about the person using the phrase than what they mean.


    So what's the solution if there is one? I have different levels of trust versus doubt. When I first meet one, my attitude towards him is completely positive and remains positive unless he proves the opposite to me. That doesn't mean, however, I trust him with the key to my house or my bank account information.

    Don't you see similar things on the far right? They just have different insults to use if you dare disagree. I don't trust anyone who can't discuss something without using insults. I don't even care if he agrees with me -- because I can see how he is when people do disagree. That means he'd attack me if I dared disagree.

    Being nasty is a way some people have learned they can control others. It's like the husband who hits his wife if she doesn't agree. "I'll be nice if you agree, and I'll hit you if you don't." People like that don't care about you or anybody else. They're trying to control other people.

    I think it turned out that Birx and Fauci -- the experts -- were more accurate in their predictions than overly optimistic politicians and overly pessimistic ones.

    The people in Texas are now learning a lesson harder than it needed to be. The governor and politicians there, as well as many citizens, seemed to think they could ignore facts. If they said something, that would make it true. People in churches are learning a hard lesson too. Churches are now one of the leading sources of spreading coronavirus.

    Extreme views have a way of killing themselves off. Look how long Communism lasted in Russia. China may call itself Communist, but they're not Marxists. Marxism has failed dreadfully. The people who started BLM say they're Marxists. Good for them, but not very many people are going to become Marxists. The idea of "defunding the police" suggestnig all police forces be abolished is also too extreme to be taken seriously. Then there are extreme views on the right. There are people who think Trump should arrest everyone who disagrees with him. Others think maybe they can create a race war.

    I don't take any of those extreme views seriously. There have been extremists trying to push the same agendas for a long time. Most people find them too extreme, so the movements go nowhere.
     
  13. Cristo Rei

    Cristo Rei Well-Known Member

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    Ye all good.
    Past 20 years the progressive parties have adopted extreme policies; transgenders, homosexuals, lesbians, abortions, political correctness, cancel culture, feminism, social justice, and the like. So to me the left is far left, no distinction. They even support the mob looting and tearing down statues.

    The conservative parties haven't adopted an extreme policies. They don't listen to few who are alt right.

    As far as the coronaphobia goes over here, im over it. We've just been fed one lie after another.
    The whole point of these lockdowns was to "flatten the curve" so our hospitals wouldn't fill up...
    There is something nefarious going on.
     
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  14. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    That's only because you have been THOROUGHLY DECEIVED by the mainstream media.

    Have you ever challenged their lies and total nonsense? When they attacked HCQ did you expose them for the liars that they are? When they promoted the Russian Collusion Hoax day after day after day for three years, did you to tell people to stop listening to their garbage?

    No, you would sooner see them destroy America than stand up for the truth. And Christians are supposed to stand up for the truth, not be in cahoots with liars. If Trump had more guts he would charge all the MSM with insurrection, sedition, and treason, and have them all locked up. They have been aiding and abetting the enemies of America for years, yet nobody has charged them with a criminal conspiracy.
     
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  15. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    It is not possible to lock up all the liars.

    There's be no one left....
     
  16. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    This is an empty assertion. You provide zero evidence. What do you think you are, a right-wing talk-show host? That kind of talk may get applause from the right-wing listeners but it's nothing substantial.
    I'm not a doctor. Are you? Have you conducted your own study on hydroxychloroquine? If it is such a magical cure-all, why haven't studies shown that? There are places where it's been used. Have they used to to cure coronavirus cases? It does not reduce the mortality rate. Produce the scientific studies to show it does from credible research instititutions. I'll take the FDA's word on it.

    FDA cautions use of hydroxychloroquine/chloroquine for COVID-19

    July 1, 2020 Update: A summary of the FDA review of safety issues with the use of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine to treat hospitalized patients with COVID-19 is now available. This includes reports of serious heart rhythm problems and other safety issues, including blood and lymph system disorders, kidney injuries, and liver problems and failure.

    Why aren't Texas, Mississippi and Florida using it if it's such a miracle drug? I have to laugh about what Utah did. Ohio did it too. Trump talked about it so some states bought it.

    Ohio bought millions of hydroxychloroquine to combat coronavirus. It’s now a banned treatment

    The Ohio Department of Health spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to stockpile millions of doses of a now-defunct coronavirus treatment that had been touted by President Donald Trump for months.

    The state purchased more than 2 million hydroxychloroquine pills for $602,629 on April 9, spokeswoman Melanie Amato said via email. That translates to about 34 cents per pill, the expected rate for the drug in April, according to the National Average Drug Acquisition Cost index.

    On April 20, Capital Wholesale Drug in Columbus, donated 2 million hydroxychloroquine — worth about $680,000 — from Mason-based drugmaker Prasco.

    The amount of pills stockpiled by the state is equivalent to nearly two years-worth of prescriptions the state typically uses in its managed care programs, according to data provided by the federal Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. . . .

    But, hydroxychloroquine can no longer be used to treat COVID-19 after the U.S. Food and Drug Administration revoked an “emergency use authorization” for the drug this week. The FDA authorization allowed hydroxychloroquine to be used to treat virus patients, even though its effectiveness was unknown.

    In a Monday announcement, the FDA said the drug appears “unlikely to be effective in treating COVID-19” and that serious cardiac side effects mean the known benefits of using hydroxychloroquine to treat the virus “no longer outweigh the known and potential risks.” The modification comes after Trump pushed the drug as a possible COVID-19 treatment and said he had taken it for a while as a preventative measure.

    Why don't you know these things? Don't the right wing talk shows and right wing websites discuss this kind of thing? Or do they want to talk only about things that make Trump look good?

    Next you may say the FDA hates Trump and wanted to restrict the use of this drug just so more people die to make him look bad.

    President Bolsonaro of Brazil also touted this drug. How has that worked out for him in Brazil? How's it working out in India?

    What we found out was that Donald Trump Junior wanted to collude with the Russians but was apparently unable to. We have also seen people go to jail as the result of that investigation. It was never really about Russian collusion howeer. Mueller's job to look into things to see if any foreign governments had tried to interfere in the election. We know now they did.

    Of course, Trump made things worse for himself by acting as if he had things to hide. Oh, what can I say? The people who committed crimes trying to help Trump get elected had better hope they get tried and convicted before he leaves office so he can pardon them the way he pardoned Roger Stone. It's okay to lie to Congress if Trump is your pal and will pardon you. What's that say about Trump?

    I see American coming apart now under Trump in a way thought impossible under Obama. Trump has sown division and hate. He has not made American stronger.

    According to you, the "truth" apparently has to be whatever Trump is saying at the moment. Anyone who dares hold a different opinion should be prosecuted and locked up. Face it: You want a one party system the way Nazis and Communists had. You sling words around as if you've established "truth" and that everyone who disagrees with Trump must be a liar.

    What you need to come to grips with is how far you missed the mark in the opening post. You may enjoy attacking people like Birx and Fauci; but time has shown they were right and you were wrong. How the US has handled the coronavirus has been a disaster. Trump did not provide leadership or inspiration. He made silly comments about disinfectants, said the virus would likely disappear by April. He has no idea what he's talking about. It would have been better for him to admit he's not a doctor and then let the best doctors handle things.

    If you think Christians should stand up for the truth, let's hear you admit Birx and Fauci was right to say the numbers could reach 200,000 by the end of the year. Stop being political about it, stop thinking everyone who disagress with Trump is part of some conspiracy to harm him. Trump may be paranoid imagining people are his enemies; but you don't need to take his paranoia seriously. Birx and Fauci are doctors. Their goal in life is to try to keep people healthy. That's what I see. It doesn't mean science is going to be right 100% of the time, especially when a new virus shows up and we still need more research to understand it better.

    You accused Fauci falsely saying he was trying to scare people by predicting "100,000 to 200,000 cases." No, he was stating what he believed was the best scientific opinion; and it turns out he was right. We'll see what kind of Christian you are now -- see if you stand on the side of facts and truth or the side of poltical partisanship with its lies.

    Now the so-called experts have decided to promote fear and panic in the US population. Instead of telling people that with the quarantines, social distancing and effective drugs now available, they should expect a decline in COVID-19 deaths, they are unnecessarily scaring people with numbers like 100,000 to 200,000! (Note: Current count for deaths in the USA is about 2,500)

    You may want to admit too that several states (mostly Republican ones) did not take quarantines, social distancing and masks seriously enough. Now we have new crises with the coronavirus, mostly in Republican states.
     
  17. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    Good for them. There's no better way to lose elections than to cater to extremists. I think most people are middle-of-road. If you want them to keep voting for you, you shouldn't be extreme either to the left or to the right.
     
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  18. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    So, are you saying that you are also a liar, because you did say that there would be no one left?
     
  19. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    Close but no cigar !

    See as written , various such as "all men are liars" and "God is not a man that He could lie", and "ALL SOCIETY is DEATH DEALING (Pernicious)" (Galatians) ..... etc .... and all mankind is full of wickedness, and all men are subject to the prince of the power of the air (Ephesians 2), and "The whole world (that's left alive) refuses to repent of worshiping (serving) DEMONS" , and 'there is none righteous , no not one' , and God looked from Heaven to see if anyone was seeking Him, and He found no one.....

    See ? (not yet?) Few do....
     
  20. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    A Pharisee no less in your own righteousness, tinged with a lawyers twisting answer.
     
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