How does God lead?

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1stCenturyLady

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Scripture doesn't support your claims. Tongues, Prophecy, and Word of Knowledge all expired with the Apostles who administered these gifts. God moves us inwardly by love and the witness of the Spirit. Also through the presence or absence of faith. But never apart from scripture since the close of the apostolic age.

Your premise is utterly unscriptural.

These gifts are all part of the New Covenant, and nothing in a covenant ends until the covenant, itself, ends. Like sacrifices in the Old Covenant ended when the New Covenant began. Not a jot or a tittle ended until it was fulfilled. The same is true in our New Covenant. Prophecy, tongues, knowledge, wisdom, healing, faith, miracles, interpretation, and discernment have not stopped. Nor have visions and answered prayer.

And, again, faith is a gift of the Spirit in response to a rhema, but it is faithfulness/endurance that is a fruit of the Spirit. What's more, all are given a measure of faith by the Father and is enough to accept or reject Christ with a free will and intent.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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Jesus said his words are Spirit and they are life. And faith comes by hearing the Word. Vibes will not cut it.

No, faith comes by hearing the SPOKEN RHEMA directly from God. That requires a "hearing" gift of the Spirit that you deny. This is a supernatural faith given by supernatural means.
 
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ScottA

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Dave...we love ya man, not wanting to do harm. Hope you are doing okay.
 

ScottA

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No scripture = no faith = theory only.
Dave,

In my hour of need I [personally] called out to God by name, without any prior knowledge of scripture. He answered, and suddenly I was caught up in the spirit above the earth and shown many things, and then returned to the world. After which He lead me to the scriptures, which I read through from cover to cover like a novel, wherein the words confirmed my experience and my experience confirmed the words.

In my experience, the scriptures did not proceed my faith, nor did I even believe. But rather, my spiritual experience proceeded any knowledge of the scriptures, and I "knew" the truth of God before I believed. And faith has only come after.

This is my testimony.

If this is not your own testimony, it has no bearing on how God chooses to interact with people. Nor do the scriptures confirm your testimony...but they do confirm mine, - which is no contest, but a clear statement regarding God's spiritual activity during these times. I mean, I deserve no credit at all, but my witness is true.
 
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Nancy

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I think many imagine God talking to them in their own voice and words. And then acting on it find themselves fraught with questions when imaginations never play out as expected.

In Acts prophets warned of famine and persecution, and believers took action. But most of the prophecies today prove false. It is because God now frames our thoughts and actions through scripture, not available to the New Covenant church until written, collected, copied and circulated in the late apostolic era.

So how do we know what to do according to scripture, when we come to a fork in the road? From scripture we know love always chooses the right course. So when love motivates our choices, we can rest assured it was the right choice.

Scripture also warns us to avoid certain traps. And with further understanding, we grow keen to the witness of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. We find peace moving in certain directions, and alarm or heaviness moving in other directions.

Faith, when understood as being a fruit of the Holy Spirit also directs our path. If we have faith when we pray, we know the answer is on the way and we move in ways that expect its fulfillment. When faith is not present in certain matters, we know not to look any further in that direction.

Peter said scripture gives us a more sure word of prophecy than God directly speaking to us (2 Peter 1:17–21). In that scripture is not of private interpretation, where vocal proclamations were.
"Faith, when understood as being a fruit of the Holy Spirit " @Dave L It seems you always call "faith" a "fruit" of the Spirit. It is not. It is a GIFT of the Spirit. "Faithfulness" is a "Fruit" of the Spirit. There is a difference.
 

farouk

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"Faith, when understood as being a fruit of the Holy Spirit " @Dave L It seems you always call "faith" a "fruit" of the Spirit. It is not. It is a GIFT of the Spirit. "Faithfulness" is a "Fruit" of the Spirit. There is a difference.
Faith is listed in Galatians as a fruit of the Spirit, as I recall.
 

Enoch111

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This is a supernatural faith given by supernatural means.
The means are supernatural but the faith (saving faith) is simply believing God and trusting Him and the Lord Jesus Christ, and what has been revealed in the Gospel. This is called "the obedience of faith" (Rom 16:26). It is the supernatural power of the Gospel (the Word of God) and the supernatural divine action of the Holy Spirit in convicting and convincing sinners that generates saving faith.

Christians try to complicate faith when it is simple trust (confidence, assurance). Just like a little child trusts his father unquestioningly, the *little child* who comes before God trusts Him and Christ unquestioningly. And we all are required to come before God as little children.

At the same time, after salvation, faith can be (a) a gift of the Holy Spirit and (b) a fruit of the Spirit.

GIFT: To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit (1 Cor 12:9)

FRUIT: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith... (Gal 5:22)
 

Nancy

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Faith is listed in Galatians as a fruit of the Spirit, as I recall.

SPIRITUAL GIFTS: 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines."
Spiritual Fruit: “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.”(Galatians 5:22-23)
 

farouk

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SPIRITUAL GIFTS: 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines."
Spiritual Fruit: “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.”(Galatians 5:22-23)
I think the King James has 'faith' at Galatians 5.22.
 

Nancy

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If you look in the King James it does say 'faith' at Galatians 5.22.
Perhaps the KJV but, most say faithfulness. Even the NKJV has faithfulness and, I am hard pressed to find just plain "faith" in another version..
 

Nancy

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I think it's a textual difference there; the Textus Receptus says 'faith', I think.
Well then, the KJV is alone on this one as I cannot find it in any other version. There is quite a difference in "faith" and "faithfulness".
 
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Enoch111

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Perhaps the KJV but, most say faithfulness. Even the NKJV has faithfulness and, I am hard pressed to find just plain "faith" in another version..

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But the fruits of The Spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, sweetness, goodness, faith,

Jubilee Bible 2000
But the fruit of the Spirit is this: Charity, joy, peace, tolerance, gentleness, goodness, faith,

King James 2000 Bible
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

American King James Version
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Webster's Bible Translation
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

World English Bible
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,

Young's Literal Translation
And the fruit of the Spirit is: Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
 
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1stCenturyLady

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The means are supernatural but the faith (saving faith) is simply believing God and trusting Him and the Lord Jesus Christ, and what has been revealed in the Gospel. This is called "the obedience of faith" (Rom 16:26). It is the supernatural power of the Gospel (the Word of God) and the supernatural divine action of the Holy Spirit in convicting and convincing sinners that generates saving faith.

The faith you are talking about, I agree. However, I am talking about the verse in Romans 10:17.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. This is not talking about reading the Bible, or even hearing a sermon, though Rhemas do come through either at times. It is not talking about "saving faith." The "faith" that comes through receiving a Rhema, the Greek word for Word in this verse, is literally hearing God's voice - Rhema of God. That is precisely how one receives a Word of Wisdom, Word of Knowledge, Prophecy or Interpretation of tongues. However, along with the Rhema, supernatural faith is bestowed in a searing manner as well to know that you know that the Word is true.
 

Nancy

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Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But the fruits of The Spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, sweetness, goodness, faith,

Jubilee Bible 2000
But the fruit of the Spirit is this: Charity, joy, peace, tolerance, gentleness, goodness, faith,

King James 2000 Bible
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

American King James Version
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Webster's Bible Translation
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

World English Bible
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,

Young's Literal Translation
And the fruit of the Spirit is: Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,

Okay Enoch, lol...I should have specified hard to find in the most common translations like the NIV, NASB, NKJV, NLT, RSV, AMP and many others. So, I guess I have a list too :)
 

1stCenturyLady

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I guess we will just have to disagree on this one brother....it's not a thing! Lol.

The OP's big thing is he believes one must already have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to have faith to believe in Jesus, all based on his belief that faith is a fruit of the Spirit. He's got the cart before the horse. He also says one cannot repent unless they are first indwelt with the Spirit. That goes in the face of Acts 2:38 that says we must first repent and then we shall receive the Holy Spirit. He bases his whole theory on that one verse even though all other translations say faithfulness/endurance, which is the actual fruit of the Spirit, and disregards all other verses to the contrary. It doesn't matter how many times you show him the Word, he still repeats the same mistake over and over. But now I see he doesn't even believe in the gifts of the Spirit, so it is no wonder he is making huge mistakes. He's denominational and a cessationist. No wonder he throws out scriptures that don't fit his preconceived human reasonings.
 
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