How does God lead?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,795
19,242
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The problem is, you have zero scripture supporting your position.


The opposite is true. The bible is a book of faith. When you believe in God and in His love for us...and that He intervenes to save us by directing our steps in His holy pathways....God sends His Spirit to us.

Your idea of a religious belief without power or relationship was believed by those who apposed Christ. The religious establishment of His time still exists today...and is supported by religious unbelievers....just like at that time.

Of course many will have to fulfill that role. It is predicted in the bible. If you feel you must do this...then go ahead.

Same as it ever was.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus and Helen
D

Dave L

Guest
The opposite is true. The bible is a book of faith. When you believe in God and in His love for us...and that He intervenes to save us by directing our steps in His holy pathways....God sends His Spirit to us.

Your idea of a religious belief without power or relationship was believed by those who apposed Christ. The religious establishment of His time still exists today...and is supported by religious unbelievers....just like at that time.

Of course many will have to fulfill that role. It is predicted in the bible. If you feel you must do this...then go ahead.

Same as it ever was.
You are making general claims about the bible without direct scriptural support for you position.
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,795
19,242
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
You are making general claims about the bible without direct scriptural support for you position.


teaching you here would take too long.

But I'll draw you to the very spiritual nature of the gathering together of they who have faith (called the church of God).

Paul emphasizes the use of spiritual gifts in the assemblies...without which there would be no spiritual growth possible.

Now read carefully the highlighted parts! :)

1 Cor. 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.


2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.


3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.


4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.


5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.


6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?


7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?


8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?


9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.


10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.


11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.


12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.


13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.


14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.


16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?


17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.


18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:


19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.


20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.


21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.


22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.


23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?


24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:


25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.


26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.


27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.


28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.


29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.


30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.


31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.


32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.


33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.


34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.


35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.


36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?


37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.


38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.


39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.


40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus
D

Dave L

Guest
teaching you here would take too long.

But I'll draw you to the very spiritual nature of the gathering together of they who have faith (called the church of God).

Paul emphasizes the use of spiritual gifts in the assemblies...without which there would be no spiritual growth possible.

Now read carefully the highlighted parts! :)

1 Cor. 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.


2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.


3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.


4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.


5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.


6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?


7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?


8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?


9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.


10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.


11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.


12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.


13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.


14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.


16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?


17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.


18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:


19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.


20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.


21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.


22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.


23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?


24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:


25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.


26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.


27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.


28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.


29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.


30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.


31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.


32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.


33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.


34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.


35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.


36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?


37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.


38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.


39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.


40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
But, all the charismatic gifts expired with the apostles. They only came in the two outpourings or though an apostle's hands. So what you are saying has no basis.
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,795
19,242
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
But, all the charismatic gifts expired with the apostles. They only came in the two outpourings or though an apostle's hands. So what you are saying has no basis.


Where does it say that? You are asking me to provide scripture...just to repudiate the word in favour of your mythology.

What you say has no basis in the bible or reality.

Never say that you are being obedient to the word then. You claim to follow the bible...which you don't...but instead follow a tradition of unbelief.

Just be honest.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus and Helen

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,795
19,242
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
We have 2 options for following the Lord.

The bible
The Spirit

Each one backs the other up so we have a firm foundation to base our directives from God.

The OP eliminates the Spirit in favour of the written word...which is also rejected as being obsolete.

So then, for honesty's sake...the OP should come clean that he rejects BOTH reference points...the word AND the Spirit in favour of a tradition of men...a form of godliness that denies any power to the Spirit to inform us or authority to the word.

It is a vain religious attempt to appear as something it is not.

So what are we to adhere to?

According to the OP we are too late in history...God has abandoned us (with no spiritual empowerment) to a bible that no longer is relevant.

And yet there is a religious bent to this unbelief and pessimistic outlook.

Can you say...unbelievable?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus and Helen

1stCenturyLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
5,253
2,136
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You sound like Hagin and others harping the same tune.

Actually, I know the difference between Logos and Rhema. Once you've been baptized with the Holy Spirit and actually experience Rhemas, you find they are the difference between night and day. To receive 100% answers to prayer, I ALWAYS wait for the Rhema before I pray. And the awesome answer comes immediately as if supernaturally, because it is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Episkopos and Helen

1stCenturyLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
5,253
2,136
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You must add to scripture to hold you views. It's not in the bible.

If you are holding on to 1 Corinthians 13 as your proof that the gifts ended before the covenant ends, you are basing your views on a strawman. Do you honestly believe Paul would imply that when his letters are gathered together in one place, that it is "the perfect"? I guess you do. :( No, if you read to the end of the chapter, the perfect is seeing and knowing God FACE TO FACE. The Bible is still seeing God through a dark glass - far from perfect or you would know more than you do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus and Helen

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
30,790
19,230
113
North America
If you are holding on to 1 Corinthians 13 as your proof that the gifts ended before the covenant ends, you are basing your views on a strawman. Do you honestly believe Paul would imply that when his letters are gathered together in one place, that it is "the perfect"? I guess you do. :( No, if you read to the end of the chapter, the perfect is seeing and knowing God FACE TO FACE. The Bible is still seeing God through a dark glass - far from perfect or you would know more than you do.
I do think it's fair to say that revelation is complete in Scripture.
 

1stCenturyLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
5,253
2,136
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I do think it's fair to say that revelation is complete in Scripture.

New revelation for the world, yes. But there are prophets that operate in the gift today. Just as Peter prophesied on the Day of Pentecost that Joel 2 was being fulfilled that day, modern prophets recognize pertinent scriptures being fulfilled now. Trump is one of the paradigms. Have you heard of those prophesies. Watch Jonathan Cahn on youtube about the paradigms. You see the reason for some of the stories in the Old Testament being in such detail as the are being played with new people again in our own time. That is one of the purposes of a prophet.

However, I received a personal prophecy, and it came true. I'll send you that account if you like.
 

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,476
21,155
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
God leads personally through faith and love. Not by voices in your head.

Well Dave...you are on a loser my friend.
God is not mute. He is way beyond just a Book...however wonderful and alive the book is..

As is said:-

“A man with an experience of God is never at the mercy of a man with an argument.”

We each hear at many levels...according to faith ...as in the verse below...


John 12. 28 Jesus said...."Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that 1) it thundered: others said, 2) An angel spake to him.
Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of Me, but for your sakes.
"

Experience yes. But you will say no way...it was deception.
Then I glory in my 54 years of deception...and you can keep you shallow fears. Because that is what drives your lack of belief FEAR.
Fear of being deceived.

Well I tell you in my years I have had many visions, one not even while in prayer, but an "open" vision, eyes open and not expecting anything! . ...and I've had many powerful dreams.
And once, I heard the audible voice of God. Just like those in the scripture quoted.

It was on Christmas Eve morning...1975

For me, it shook the house, I was sitting up in bed, my husband not yet awake. The voice did not wake him..obviously I shook him awake...!!!

In Psalms David says :- "Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel. "

You have said time and again what God does not do...in your own life you have bound Him. Shame on you Dave. :(
 

1stCenturyLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
5,253
2,136
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Verse 17 should be understood in the context of the entire 10th chapter. And it relates to the preaching of the Gospel and the generation of saving faith through that.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (v 14)

This has nothing to do with God speaking to Christians personally but the Holy Spirit using the preaching of the Gospel to bring sinners to the Savior.

If you know the difference between the two Greek words for "word," logos and rhema, hearing the logos preached, and receiving a rhema from God based on that word makes the logos come alive. So, you are correct in that the preaching of the logos must contain a rhema for the person to receive saving faith. Note, that the Greek word used in the verse for "word" is rhema, not logos. However, hearing a word of Wisdom or Word of Knowledge, Prophecy or Interpretation of Tongues are also Rhemas, though "rhema" is not used in the title. Perhaps a mistranslation centuries ago from Latin back into Greek???
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Episkopos

1stCenturyLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
5,253
2,136
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ah yes, I have had personal experience with many Calvinists as I belonged to a Reformed Baptist church for a bit over 2 years. I could never accept their TULIP doctrine...that is partially why I left that church.

I left an AOG church for preaching the same thing, but mainly because I received a dream from God that I couldn't shake off. It showed that congregation as just being a social club.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy and amadeus

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,476
21,155
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
@Episkopos said
< The mouth speaks from the fulness of the heart...in this case unbelief.

A religious unbeliever would seem to be the worst of both worlds.
But sometimes what we say falls on deaf ears.
.> end quote.

But sometimes what we say falls on deaf ears.

Oh ouch Dave...
And I wonder just how God feels when He tries so hard to speak to your tightly closed , deaf ears!! :oops:
 
Last edited:

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
30,790
19,230
113
North America
Seems that I look that this matter rather differently from various posters.

For me Scripture is final revelation.
 

1stCenturyLady

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2018
5,253
2,136
113
76
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well Dave...you are on a loser my friend.
God is not mute. He is way beyond just a Book...however wonderful and alive the book is..

As is said:-

“A man with an experience of God is never at the mercy of a man with an argument.”

We each hear at many levels...according to faith ...as in the verse below...


John 12. 28 Jesus said...."Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that 1) it thundered: others said, 2) An angel spake to him.
Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of Me, but for your sakes.
"

Experience yes. But you will say no way...it was deception.
Then I glory in my 54 years of deception...and you can keep you shallow fears. Because that is what drives your lack of belief FEAR.
Fear of being deceived.

Well I tell you in my years I have had many visions, one not even while in prayer, but an "open" vision, eyes open and not expecting anything! . ...and I've had many powerful dreams.
And once, I heard the audible voice of God. Just like those in the scripture quoted.

It was on Christmas Eve morning...1975

For me, it shook the house, I was sitting up in bed, my husband not yet awake. The voice did not wake him..obviously I shook him awake...!!!

In Psalms David says :- "Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel. "

You have said time and again what God does not do...in your own life you have bound Him. Shame on you Dave. :(

Yes, sis, we are on the same page in both belief and experiences. I feel sorry for the Cessationists with their Swiss Cheese Bibles full of holes where they remove scriptures on the gifts. The New Covenant is an instruction manual. It is not just a history book.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Episkopos and Helen

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,795
19,242
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
If you know the difference between preaching the logos, and receiving a rhema from God you know the difference. But, you are correct in that the preaching of the logos must contain a rhema for the person to receive saving faith. Note, that the Greek word used in the verse for "word" is rhema, not logos.


Amen. The logos is to the outward man what the rhema is to the inward man.

The kind of faith that God is looking for is from the inner man...and it is from there that we believe unto salvation.

Faith comes by hearing the rhema....
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1stCenturyLady

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,476
21,155
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Seems that I look that this matter rather differently from various posters.

For me Scripture is final revelation.

That is sad...and very limiting on Father God.

"And He ( Jesus) could not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief. "
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,693
5,574
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How does scripture confirm your experience?
For starters, very personally, with things that are comparable to scripture and comparable in my life also.

Then, scripturally, by the biblical examples of how God has done very similarly with characters in the bible. Even here it is personal too, for I can draw the comparisons, but another not having had the experience would not be able to. Nonetheless, being caught up in the spirit is not an original experience of mine...but of His, and it is He whom I came to and made it so.