How does God lead?

[Nancy]

The OP's big thing is he believes one must already have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to have faith to believe in Jesus, all based on his belief that faith is a fruit of the Spirit. He's got the cart before the horse. He also says one cannot repent unless they are first indwelt with the Spirit. That goes in the face of Acts 2:38 that says we must first repent and then we shall receive the Holy Spirit. He bases his whole theory on that one verse even though all other translations say faithfulness/endurance, which is the actual fruit of the Spirit, and disregards all other verses to the contrary. It doesn't matter how many times you show him the Word, he still repeats the same mistake over and over. But now I see he doesn't even believe in the gifts of the Spirit, so it is no wonder he is making huge mistakes. He's denominational and a cessationist.

Yes, cart before the horse...some just can't help wresting certain script. to hold tight to a certain belief. Meh-not even worth the back and forth...I mean, why would the Holy Spirit indwell someone who is not yet saved? And how saved without faith? Shaking head.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Yes, cart before the horse...some just can't help wresting certain script. to hold tight to a certain belief. Meh-not even worth the back and forth...I mean, why would the Holy Spirit indwell someone who is not yet saved? And how saved without faith? Shaking head.

He's not the only one. Most Calvinists believe you must be regenerated before accepting Christ. In other words you must be born again before you can be actually born again. Its nuts. But many Cessationists are like this, not knowing the rules of Covenants. They actually believe part of the covenant, namely the gifts of the Spirit, ended mid-stream. Not so. But in reading some of their material it is mainly based on their lack of experiencing any of the gifts themselves. It comes down to pride. Humility is first.

 

[Nancy]

He's not the only one. Most Calvinists believe you must be regenerated before accepting Christ. In other words you must be born again before you can be actually born again. Its nuts. But many Cessationists are like this, not knowing the rules of Covenants. They actually believe part of the covenant, namely the gifts of the Spirit, ended mid-stream. Not so. But in reading some of their material it is mainly based on their lack of experiencing any of the gifts themselves. It comes down to pride. Humility is first.

Ah yes, I have had personal experience with many Calvinists as I belonged to a Reformed Baptist church for a bit over 2 years. I could never accept their TULIP doctrine...that is partially why I left that church.

 

[Enoch111]

The faith you are talking about, I agree. However, I am talking about the verse in Romans 10:17.

Verse 17 should be understood in the context of the entire 10th chapter. And it relates to the preaching of the Gospel and the generation of saving faith through that.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (v 14)

This has nothing to do with God speaking to Christians personally but the Holy Spirit using the preaching of the Gospel to bring sinners to the Savior.

 

[Episkopos]

Dave,

In my hour of need I [personally] called out to God by name, without any prior knowledge of scripture. He answered, and suddenly I was caught up in the spirit above the earth and shown many things, and then returned to the world. After which He lead me to the scriptures, which I read through from cover to cover like a novel, wherein the words confirmed my experience and my experience confirmed the words.

In my experience, the scriptures did not proceed my faith, nor did I even believe. But rather, my spiritual experience proceeded any knowledge of the scriptures, and I "knew" the truth of God before I believed. And faith has only come after.

This is my testimony.

If this is not your own testimony, it has no bearing on how God chooses to interact with people. Nor do the scriptures confirm your testimony...but they do confirm mine, - which is no contest, but a clear statement regarding God's spiritual activity during these times. I mean, I deserve no credit at all, but my witness is true.

Amen to God's faithfulness.

My testimony is similar although it began by being convicted of sin and reading the bible...which I had never read before. I was asking, if there was a God, for help. After a few days of reading I was baptized in light and walked in that light for a few days until I couldn't take it anymore. The experience was too holy for me at the time. So then my testimony is that God does translate us to Zion to walk in the Spirit...by His resurrection life. God had allowed me to put on the armour of light which is a literal light....the light of holiness and truth.

 

[Dave L]

"Faith, when understood as being a fruit of the Holy Spirit " @Dave L It seems you always call "faith" a "fruit" of the Spirit. It is not. It is a GIFT of the Spirit. "Faithfulness" is a "Fruit" of the Spirit. There is a difference.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) (KJV 1900)
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,” (Galatians 5:22) (NET)

= not from us either way you look at it.

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13) (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

Dave,

In my hour of need I [personally] called out to God by name, without any prior knowledge of scripture. He answered, and suddenly I was caught up in the spirit above the earth and shown many things, and then returned to the world. After which He lead me to the scriptures, which I read through from cover to cover like a novel, wherein the words confirmed my experience and my experience confirmed the words.

In my experience, the scriptures did not proceed my faith, nor did I even believe. But rather, my spiritual experience proceeded any knowledge of the scriptures, and I "knew" the truth of God before I believed. And faith has only come after.

This is my testimony.

If this is not your own testimony, it has no bearing on how God chooses to interact with people. Nor do the scriptures confirm your testimony...but they do confirm mine, - which is no contest, but a clear statement regarding God's spiritual activity during these times. I mean, I deserve no credit at all, but my witness is true.

How does scripture confirm your experience?

 

[Dave L]

No, faith comes by hearing the SPOKEN RHEMA directly from God. That requires a "hearing" gift of the Spirit that you deny. This is a supernatural faith given by supernatural means.

You sound like Hagin and others harping the same tune.

 

[Dave L]

Your premise is utterly unscriptural.

These gifts are all part of the New Covenant, and nothing in a covenant ends until the covenant, itself, ends. Like sacrifices in the Old Covenant ended when the New Covenant began. Not a jot or a tittle ended until it was fulfilled. The same is true in our New Covenant. Prophecy, tongues, knowledge, wisdom, healing, faith, miracles, interpretation, and discernment have not stopped. Nor have visions and answered prayer.

And, again, faith is a gift of the Spirit in response to a rhema, but it is faithfulness/endurance that is a fruit of the Spirit. What's more, all are given a measure of faith by the Father and is enough to accept or reject Christ with a free will and intent.

You must add to scripture to hold you views. It's not in the bible.

 

[Dave L]

No.

Now you have spoke against the scriptures yourself, which say, "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, as He wills."

But only through the hands of an apostle.

“Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?” (Galatians 3:4–5) (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

No, the scripture is not the source of faith.

"Which is greater the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift?"

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Romans 10:17) (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

It is clear you have the wrong idea about the scriptures.

Yes, Peter gave credit to God for the voice of Christ the Word. But Jesus, though He referred to the scriptures many times, made clarification that His "words are spirit"...which many now and as it was then, will not hear, referring back to the scriptures, rather than to the very voice of Him who inspired their writing.

Which is greater?

But whether by the scriptures or by discernment of the spirit of God, either way, what is written was not to be the end of the matter. The end of the matter is written also, and so there should be no room for debate: In the end what was once written by the scribes on parchment is made complete by God Himself writing them on our hearts, not with ink, but with His own hand...which is spirit.

So, we have heard and read it from the prophets, from the mouth of Christ, and also from the apostle Paul, the apostle for these times of the gentiles wherein God has promised to pour out His spirit upon all flesh.

The question that all should be asking, is: Who are these who refuse to go along with the great plan of God to finish in the spirit, what He has begun in the flesh, just as it is written? And who are these who hear their voices, instead of His?

This too is written.

Scripture is our only reliable resource. Vibes, visions, and the like will always lead astray.

 

[Episkopos]

Scripture is our only reliable resource. Vibes, visions, and the like will always lead astray.

...OR...directly to God. God is faithful.

 

[Dave L]

...OR...directly to God. God is faithful.

God leads personally through faith and love. Not by voices in your head.

 

[Episkopos]

God leads personally through faith and love. Not by voices in your head.

In your very humble experience that is.

A person who lacks experience is never an expert on any given subject. Doubters abound.

For a person who claims to have faith...you certainly are a doubter.

A balanced view would claim that there is both the genuine article and the bogus. It is equally fanatical and naive to think everything is either genuine or all is bogus. The first lacks experience but the other lacks faith.

 

[Dave L]

In your very humble experience that is.

A person who lacks experience is never an expert on any given subject. Doubters abound.

For a person who claims to have faith...you certainly are a doubter.

A balanced view would claim that there is both the genuine article and the bogus. It is equally fanatical and naive to think everything is either genuine or all is bogus. The first lacks experience but the other lacks faith.

But, only God knows the condition of our hearts.

 

[Episkopos]

But, only God knows the condition of our hearts.

The mouth speaks from the fulness of the heart...in this case unbelief.

A religious unbeliever would seem to be the worst of both worlds.

A religious belief is from the outer man...whereas the gospel is meant to be taken in by the inner man. It is to the inner man that the Spirit speaks. The outer man knows nothing of this.

 

[Dave L]

The mouth speaks from the fulness of the heart...in this case unbelief.

A religious unbeliever would seem to be the worst of both worlds.

But sometimes what we say falls on deaf ears.

 

[Episkopos]

But sometimes what we say falls on deaf ears.

...or what God says...

 

[Dave L]

...or what God says...

The problem is, you have zero scripture supporting your position.