How does God lead?

[Dave L]

They are in order and accurately describe what happened in church history.

Just like a personal Rorschach test.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Just like a personal Rorschach test.

Seeing as you believe the false doctrine of the Reformation, I can see why you want to defend it. Oh well. You can lead a mule to water, but you can't make it drink.

Gotta run.

 

[Dave L]

Seeing as you believe the false doctrine of the Reformation, I can see why you want to defend it. Oh well. You can lead a mule to water, but you can't make it drink.

Gotta run.

Are all the doctrines false? Or just some of them?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Are all the doctrines false? Or just some of them?

The doctrines on sin. To emphasize the false doctrine of grace being unmerited favor instead of the power of God preventing you from willful sinning. IOW the doctrine of even when we willfully sin, we are saved, flies in the face of the truth of holiness, without which no one will see God. Luther started this with his command to make your sins strong, but your love for Christ stronger...even if you commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day, no sin can separate us from God. Luther promoted sin, which is the same as what the Nicolaitans did all to show the power of their twisted version of grace. Both produced dead in sin converts, thus the dead church. Jude 1:4 "turning the grace of God into licentiousness.

Nicolaus was a Greek proselyte possibly unable to understand Semitic styles of writing. They made the same mistake in interpretation as Luther. A bunch of robes and sashes doesn't make a pastor holy. They have to preach the truth, not the bag of garbage to lead people to hell.

 

[Dave L]

The doctrines on sin. To emphasize the false doctrine of grace being unmerited favor instead of the power of God preventing you from willful sinning. IOW the doctrine of even when we willfully sin, we are saved, flies in the face of the truth of holiness, without which no one will see God. Luther started this with his command to make your sins strong, but your love for Christ stronger...even if you commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day, no sin can separate us from God. Luther promoted sin, which is the same as what the Nicolaitans did all to show the power of their twisted version of grace. Both produced dead in sin converts, thus the dead church. Jude 1:4 "turning the grace of God into licentiousness.

Nicolaus was a Greek proselyte possibly unable to understand Semitic styles of writing. They made the same mistake in interpretation as Luther. A bunch of robes and sashes doesn't make a pastor holy. They have to preach the truth, not the bag of garbage to lead people to hell.

That's what salvation by grace is, being kept by God's power from sinning.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

That's what salvation by grace is, being kept by God's power from sinning.

Exactly. But Luther preached no power over sin, but that when we sin (and we will) it will not separate us from God.

 

[Dave L]

Exactly. But Luther preached no power over sin, but that when we sin (and we will) it will not separate us from God.

I'm not familiar with those views. I read Bondage of the Will, his book against free will, and I agree with most of it. But in it he speaks of a battle between flesh and the Holy Spirit where the Spirit wins. And then he asks, how we can have free will if you remove the Spirit and have only the flesh that does nothing but fight against the Spirit when present?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I'm not familiar with those views. I read Bondage of the Will, his book against free will, and I agree with most of it. But in it he speaks of a battle between flesh and the Holy Spirit where the Spirit wins. And then he asks, how we can have free will if you remove the Spirit and have only the flesh that does nothing but fight against the Spirit when present?

Here is a letter he wrote:


Martin Luther "Sin boldly"):
"If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard, for you are quite a sinner."

I've highlighted three sentences in one letter that are not what any apostle taught. But this is why I hear over and over on these forums, and even in sermons on the radio that God sacrificed Jesus because we will always sin. That is not freedom from sin, that is freedom to sin.

 

[Dave L]

Here is a letter he wrote:


Martin Luther "Sin boldly"):
"If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard, for you are quite a sinner."

I've highlighted three sentences in one letter that are not what any apostle taught. But this is why I hear over and over on these forums, and even in sermons on the radio that God sacrificed Jesus because we will always sin. That is not freedom from sin, that is freedom to sin.

Here's a Lutheran understanding of the issue.
I have some views too based on what I know about Luther's Bondage of the Will claims to share later.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Here's a Lutheran understanding of the issue.
I have some views too based on what I know about Luther's Bondage of the Will claims to share later.

Luther is still ignorant of the power of the Holy Spirit to kill the desires of the flesh, so he is still lax on sin, believing we have no choice, just to trust Jesus while we sin. That is absurd. Jesus said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed."

He is saying, freedom from sin, not freedom to sin.

Luther did not have a message of victory over sin, just victory over the punishment for our sins. That is not what Jesus taught. He said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." That is hardly a license to sin.

 

[Dave L]

Luther is still ignorant of the power of the Holy Spirit to kill the desires of the flesh, so he is still lax on sin, believing we have no choice, just to trust Jesus while we sin. That is absurd. Jesus said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed."

He is saying, freedom from sin, not freedom to sin.

Luther did not have a message of victory over sin, just victory over the punishment for our sins. That is not what Jesus taught. He said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." That is hardly a license to sin.

I'm not well versed enough on Luther to accept your claims or to defend him. But his teaching against free will broke the back of the catholic church, along with his showing them to be the Antichrist. So I give him credit for that.

And I will say that Evangelicalism remains under control of the Papacy today as long as free will and end times rapture theories remain. The Catholic Church gave us both.

So it is good to cherry pick the good and let the rest lay. This is what works for me. I believe the truth is spread throughout Christendom and we go there to get it. If we confine ourselves to one denomination or sect, we miss the big picture.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I'm not well versed enough on Luther to accept your claims or to defend him. But his teaching against free will broke the back of the catholic church, along with his showing them to be the Antichrist. So I give him credit for that.

And I will say that Evangelicalism remains under control of the Papacy today as long as free will and end times rapture theories remain. The Catholic Church gave us both.

So it is good to cherry pick the good and let the rest lay. This is what works for me. I believe the truth is spread throughout Christendom and we go there to get it. If we confine ourselves to one denomination or sect, we miss the big picture.

I'm not Catholic, but do believe in free will and the second coming of Christ, so if Luther is to blame for his belief in no free will and unscriptural representations regarding the second coming, that is even more of an indictment. So we will have to agree to disagree. Whether or not the pope will turn out to be the Antichrist, remains to be seen. I see him as a political man. The false prophet, may be.

 

[farouk]

Here is a letter he wrote:


Martin Luther "Sin boldly"):
"If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard, for you are quite a sinner."

I've highlighted three sentences in one letter that are not what any apostle taught. But this is why I hear over and over on these forums, and even in sermons on the radio that God sacrificed Jesus because we will always sin. That is not freedom from sin, that is freedom to sin.

Strange quote from Luther...

 

[Helen]

Strange quote from Luther...

Getting his message across tongue in cheek, I guess.

 

[farouk]

Getting his message across tongue in cheek, I guess.

Well, I guess so..., but strange...

 

[Dave L]

I'm not Catholic, but do believe in free will and the second coming of Christ. So we will have to agree to disagree. Whether or not the pope will turn out to be the Antichrist, remains to be seen. I see him as a political man. The false prophet, may be.

The Pope has you right where he wants you. Do yourself a favor and google papacy Antichrist and consider all views. And also Jesuits futurism.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The Pope has you right where he wants you. Do yourself a favor and google papacy Antichrist and consider all views. And also Jesuits futurism.

Silly, I'm not in favor of the pope, any more than I will be of the false prophet. You actually have more in common with the RCC than I do, as you are both amillennialists. So there!

 

[Dave L]

Silly, I'm not in favor of the pope, any more than I will be of the false prophet. You actually have more in common with the RCC than I do, as you are both amillennialists. So there!

You are right where he wants you.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Strange quote from Luther...

Can you see why Jesus called the church age of Sardis, the dead church. Luther is instrumental in many of the false teachings that are still in the church today.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You are right where he wants you.

No, you are! LOL