How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

[CoreIssue]

Agree
..Out of the 'dead' realm into the child of God new realm.

>> "..... The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."


The blood was always 'alive' and spiritually shed...

Then why did the old testament saints have to stay in paradise until Christ descended and led them to heaven when he resurrected?

 

[Nancy]

Then why did the old testament saints have to stay in paradise until Christ descended and led them to heaven when he resurrected?

Because the fulfillment of His sacrifice had yet to be completed? JMO.

 

[CoreIssue]

Because the fulfillment of His sacrifice had yet to be completed? JMO.

Bingo! We have a winner!

 

[Dave L]

I am trying but just cannot click with this kind of logic Dave.
"The word gift is an important one in the Bible, and it is good that we understand its definition and implications.

In the New Testament, there are several Greek words translated “gift.” Some of these words are used in contexts other than God’s gift of salvation, such as the reciprocal gift-giving of celebrants (Revelation 11:10), the things received from fathers (Matthew 7:11), offerings to a ministry (Philippians 4:17), and the gifts of the magi (Matthew 2:11).

However, when it comes to the matter of our salvation, the New Testament writers use different Greek words—words that emphasize the gracious and absolutely free quality of the gift. Here are the two words most commonly used for the gift of salvation:

1) Dorea, meaning “a free gift.” This word lays particular stress on the gratuitous nature of the gift—it is something given above and beyond what is expected or deserved. Every New Testament occurrence of this word is related to a spiritual gift from God. It is what Jesus offers to the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:10). It is called the “free gift” in Romans 5:15. It is the “unspeakable [or indescribable] gift” in 2 Corinthians 9:15. This gracious gift is identified as the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38; 8:30; and 11:17.

The adverb form of this word is dorean, translated “freely” in Matthew 10:8; 2 Corinthians 11:7; Revelation 21:6; 22:17. In Romans 3:24, immediately following G
motive for the gift is nothing more than the grace of the Giver."

What does it mean for salvation to be a gift from God?

It still comes down to God saving those who cannot save themselves purely by grace. Or God making salvation available to the self-righteous who because of some inner goodness, choose to obey. This of course turns the gospel into law and involves salvation by works, not grace.

 

[Dave L]

No it is not. It requires the blood of Christ which was not available until the resurrection.

Everyone since Adam has been promised that blood, but until they actually received it from the resurrection to the rapture, there was no born again.

A reality that will return with Israel and law.

Does Jesus have bad credit? God doesn't trust him to pay for sin until he does so?

“Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:” (Acts 2:23) (KJV 1900)

 

[Nancy]

It still comes down to God saving those who cannot save themselves purely by grace. Or God making salvation available to the self-righteous who because of some inner goodness, choose to obey. This of course turns the gospel into law and involves salvation by works, not grace.

"Or God making salvation available to the self-righteous who because of some inner goodness, choose to obey."
Nobody can eve get saved in this way...not one good, no not one...

"This of course turns the gospel into law and involves salvation by works, not grace." This still does not address the unmerited gift FROM God to US as becoming somehow, works on our part by accepting it.

 

[CoreIssue]

Does Jesus have bad credit? God doesn't trust him to pay for sin until he does so?

“Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:” (Acts 2:23) (KJV 1900)

What are you trying to say?

It is quite clear in the Old Testament they look forward to the blood of the Savior, did not expect it immediately.

Just like with the new Jerusalem. How many millennia have some been waiting for that?

Remember a thousand years is like a day to the Lord.

 

[Dave L]

"Or God making salvation available to the self-righteous who because of some inner goodness, choose to obey."
Nobody can eve get saved in this way...not one good, no not one...

"This of course turns the gospel into law and involves salvation by works, not grace." This still does not address the unmerited gift FROM God to US as becoming somehow, works on our part by accepting it.

Only the self-righteous would accept it. Hard core sinners who only grace can save will not.

 

[OzSpen]

I'm not a Calvinizer.

 

[Dave L]

What are you trying to say?

It is quite clear in the Old Testament they look forward to the blood of the Savior, did not expect it immediately.

Just like with the new Jerusalem. How many millennia have some been waiting for that?

Remember a thousand years is like a day to the Lord.

They were atoned for in God's mind before the atonement took place. Before the foundation of the world. And Jesus never fails. He always delivers......

 

[Dave L]

Not in the least...........

 

[CoreIssue]

Only the self-righteous would accept it. Hard core sinners who only grace can save will not.

No sinner who does not repent in faith will by grace be saved.

The Bible makes it clear. Even one sin condemns.

So this hard-core sinner statement does not fly.

Degrees of sin only count at the white throne judgment for degrees of punishment.

 

[CoreIssue]

They were atoned for in God's mind before the atonement took place. Before the foundation of the world. And Jesus never fails. He always delivers......

That's what you call a promise, which they did not receive until Jesus led them from paradise to heaven.

You said, in essence, they were born again in the OT when they were not.

 

[farouk]

Member of the baptist Bible study sisterhood...?

 

[farouk]

They were atoned for in God's mind before the atonement took place. Before the foundation of the world. And Jesus never fails. He always delivers......

Ephesians 1 is a searching passage...

 

[OzSpen]

You will naturally believe my reasoning is flawed because of your starting point in the scripture. If you run your roots a little deeper, we will agree more than not.

Dave,

When you won't admit you used ridicule against the person, the Appeal to Ridicule Logical Fallacy, you do exactly what that Fallacy states you do,

Appeal to ridicule is a fallacy that attempts to make a claim look ridiculous by mocking it or exaggerating it in a negative way. Appeal to ridicule often uses sarcasm to make an argument look ridiculous (source).​

Here is how you ridicule me:

• 'You will naturally believe my reasoning is flawed because of your starting point....'
• 'If you run your roots a little deeper....'

Ridicule makes your argument look and be ridiculous.

Oz

 

[farouk]

Dave,

When you won't admit you used ridicule against the person, the Appeal to Ridicule Logical Fallacy, you do exactly what that Fallacy states you do,

Appeal to ridicule is a fallacy that attempts to make a claim look ridiculous by mocking it or exaggerating it in a negative way. Appeal to ridicule often uses sarcasm to make an argument look ridiculous (source).​

Here is how you ridicule me:

• 'You will naturally believe my reasoning is flawed because of your starting point....'
• 'If you run your roots a little deeper....'

Ridicule makes your argument look and be ridiculous.

Oz

Some things are funny, though...

In Psalm 2, the Lord laughs at His enemies...

 

[OzSpen]

Member of the baptist Bible study sisterhood...?

 

[Nancy]

Only the self-righteous would accept it. Hard core sinners who only grace can save will not.

"Only the self-righteous would accept it. Hard core sinners who only grace can save will not." Is there scripture to back this?

 

[farouk]

"Only the self-righteous would accept it. Hard core sinners who only grace can save will not." Is there scripture to back this?

Sorry; what does "it", refer to here?