How many have ever changed their minds...

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Who is she? And why do you think she's a tare?

I did not say she was a tare, you did...she posts as a Christian.

 

[LC627]

Probably because we already know that there will be a resurrection, actually 2 of them, so what would be the point?

What would be the point for Jesus to do it? Everyone raised from the dead in the scriptures died again.

 

[LC627]

Do you also doubt Jesus when you simply read in a book, the Bible, what he accomplished by the power of God? People don't do the healing you are doubting. When it is actually done, and in His time it most certainly is, God does it. You doubt Him but would you also claim to be His child?

"Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." John 8:41-42

Holding the Bible - The Word of God - to the same standard of anyone posting on the Internet shows a lack of understanding...Just saying. That was a horrible example for you to try and make a case lol.

 

[John Caldwell]

Sometimes I think I'm swimming in the deep end, but find out I'm just flopping around in the kiddie pool.

I know how you feel. I was once a strong Calvinist plumbing the depths of Scripture. Then a voice said "stand up you fool" and I waded out a little deeper .

 

[michaelvpardo]

I did not say she was a tare, you did...she posts as a Christian.

Who is she? I haven't said anyone was a tare, but you keep defending this mystery person, so why do you think she needs defending?

 

[LC627]

OK, now for starters, the word used in all MSS in John 14:12 is μείζων (Strongs 3187), not μέγας (Strongs 3173). They are different words.

The specific question I was asking here is, in what verses in the NT can μείζων be rightly translated "more widespread" to justify your interpretation of the word. There are 47, and none of them would seem to support this translation.

I don't mean to make fun, but let me show you how strange it would sound in some places.

- Jesus declaring of Himself, "But I say unto you, That in this place is one more widespread than the temple." (Matthew 12:6)
- "He that is most widespread among you shall be your your servant" (Matthew 23:11)
- "[the disciples] disputed among themselves, who should be the most widespread." (Mark 9:34)
- The woman at the well asking Jesus, "Are you more widespread than our father Jacob?" (John 4:12)

There are several others, but you get the idea. The meaning of μείζων is "greater," unless it is used in the comparative, in which the rendering becomes "greatest." This is the way the word is consistently translated in the NT.


Anything in keeping with His will, yes, including greater works. Let me ask something H2S was alluding to: If scripture says that the harvest is the end of the age, what do you think is going to cause that immense harvest to come about? Joel 2:28 speaks of a great outpouring of the Spirit in the last days, so why are you certain that His ability to do greater works in the earth is now over?

The greater works the disciples would do, would be greater in their extent. Not one person on this earth can have more power than Christ. Do you truly believe that you have greater power than Christ? This verse is not about power but extent.

As for Joel 2:28 we see this in Acts chapter 2. Interesting enough that is where we see what speaking in tongues truly is - human language.

 

[michaelvpardo]

What would be the point for Jesus to do it? Everyone raised from the dead in the scriptures died again.

Jesus was performing signs and wonders as signs of who He is as described beforehand by the Old testament scripture. I'm not God, so there's no reason for me to walk on water (as cool as that might be), but I love closing the mouthes of unclean spirits trying to interfere with speech in the power of the Holy Spirit, just with a commandment in His name. You might be surprised at how that gets the attention of a room filled with secular people. But in my personal experience, such things have always been spontaneous and not at all discretionary.

 

[LC627]

Jesus was performing signs and wonders as signs of who He is as described beforehand by the Old testament scripture. I'm not God, so there's no reason for me to walk on water (as cool as that might be), but I love closing the mouthes of unclean spirits trying to interfere with speech in the power of the Holy Spirit, just with a commandment in His name. You might be surprised at how that gets the attention of a room filled with secular people. But in my personal experience, such things have always been spontaneous and not at all discretionary.

And performing signs and wonders, the ones done by the apostles, was to bring credibility to message of the Gospel. We longer need signs to prove the gospel - we have the Word of God which is fully sufficient.

 

[michaelvpardo]

And performing signs and wonders, the ones done by the apostles, was to bring credibility to message of the Gospel. We longer need signs to prove the gospel - we have the Word of God which is fully sufficient.

I'm really trying not to be insulting (though sarcasm has been a lifelong entertainment) but why do you equate the gifts of ministry such as healing and prophesy with the sign gifts? The sign gifts are for unbelievers, the spiritual gifts are for the ministry of the church. The ministry gifts are volitional, the sign gifts "follow" disciples and there's nothing to suggest that they were ever volitional except in the cases of the 12 original apostles and Saul of Tarsis.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The greater works the disciples would do, would be greater in their extent. Not one person on this earth can have more power than Christ. Do you truly believe that you have greater power than Christ?

Ah, but here is where you are showing some holes in your theology still. Let me show you something then. When we do works through the Lord Jesus Christ, it is not actually us who does them. It is Christ doing them through us. This is why Peter healed the blind man in the name of Jesus (Acts 3:6). This is why Paul said, "It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me." It was why Jesus Himself said, "It is not I who does the work but the Father who does the work through me."

You see how that works? Now, the difference is that you can have many who are marching around as Christians yet have not submitted themselves to the Spirit of God, and these are not yet in a place where they can truly say what Paul said and mean it. But some can. It is actually the objective of the Christian life: To get to where it is no longer us who live but Christ who lives in us, speaks through us, acts through us, and ministers through us.

As for Joel 2:28 we see this in Acts chapter 2. Interesting enough that is where we see what speaking in tongues truly is - human language.

But now, the question always arises here, what about Joel 2:31? If 2:28 was completely fulfilled during NT times, why was v.31 not? I know what your answer might likely be, btw, to which I have another question. But I will let you respond first.

 

[Enoch111]

Then a voice said "stand up you fool" and I waded out a little deeper

Unfortunately, you waded out into the Swamp and are now mired in quicksand. But that was your choice.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Unfortunately, you waded out into the Swamp and are now mired in quicksand. But that was your choice.

The Swamp? Sounds political...

I wish John had waded into "the Swamp." Maybe he could have cleaned up Washington D.C. like Trump was supposed to.

 

[LC627]

I'm really trying not to be insulting (though sarcasm has been a lifelong entertainment) but why do you equate the gifts of ministry such as healing and prophesy with the sign gifts? The sign gifts are for unbelievers, the spiritual gifts are for the ministry of the church. The ministry gifts are volitional, the sign gifts "follow" disciples and there's nothing to suggest that they were ever volitional except in the cases of the 12 original apostles and Saul of Tarsis.

Tongues (speaking human languages) was for unbelievers as well.

 

[John Caldwell]

The Swamp? Sounds political...

I wish John had waded into "the Swamp." Maybe he could have cleaned up Washington D.C. like Trump was supposed to.

Took this pic earlier this year. :)

 

[marksman]

The reason you do not get as much "food"is most here do not study scripture, but instead compare feelings, emotions, and carnal dreams, and odd testimonies, instead of scripture.
if verses are attempted, it is only as an add on to attempt to justify the supposed being "led" by the Spirit.

Most of my threads are teaching. Look them up and you can learn something. Most of them are the result of rigorous study over a period of time.

 

[Triumph1300]

I always thought the Lord said that He is the same yesterday, today and forever.
Some of you folks don't believe in healings and other miracles, so be it.
Believe what you want.

Read:
Autobiography of Charles Finney.

But I guess some of you would classify this man as a wolf in sheep clothing.
(something the Parishees would say also)

 

[marksman]

This is a good analogy. I did a stint in early eighties and, in basic they had us do the dumbest things like, driving us out to the shooting range (first time, so we were excited) when we got there, they had us all carry hundreds of rocks, in our hands, across the field. When we were finished...had to do the same thing then they took us back! Lol. I understood what and why they were doing it and, it is now a very good comparison!

I guess that is better than having rocks in your head. Boom! Boom!

 

[LC627]

Ah, but here is where you are showing some holes in your theology still. Let me show you something then. When we do works through the Lord Jesus Christ, it is not actually us who does them. It is Christ doing them through us. This is why Peter healed the blind man in the name of Jesus (Acts 3:6). This is why Paul said, "It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me." It was why Jesus Himself said, "It is not I who does the work but the Father who does the work through me."

You see how that works? Now, the difference is that you can have many who are marching around as Christians yet have not submitted themselves to the Spirit of God, and these are not yet in a place where they can truly say what Paul said and mean it. But some can. It is actually the objective of the Christian life: To get to where it is no longer us who live but Christ who lives in us, speaks through us, acts through us, and ministers through us.


But now, the question always arises here, what about Joel 2:31? If 2:28 was completely fulfilled during NT times, why was v.31 not? I know what your answer might likely be, btw, to which I have another question. But I will let you respond first.

Of course it is God doing the healing; no one is arguing that. The issue is, listen to me closely now, when individuals claim to be "apostles/prophets" but actually they're not, they are wolves in sheep clothing leading people astray. That is the issue. There are no modern day apostles that God is working through as in the Scriptures.

I believe it to be the destruction of Jerusalem. I know what your answer might likely be too, probably John Hagee's Four Blood Moon book.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Who is she?

I always thought the Lord said that He is the same yesterday, today and forever.
Some of you folks don't believe in healings and other miracles, so be it.
Believe what you want.

Read:
Autobiography of Charles Finney.

But I guess some of you would classify this man as a wolf in sheep clothing.
(something the Parishees would say also)

Finney was a misguided lawyer and did more harm then good.

 

[John Caldwell]

I always thought the Lord said that He is the same yesterday, today and forever.
Some of you folks don't believe in healings and other miracles, so be it.
Believe what you want.

Read:
Autobiography of Charles Finney.

But I guess some of you would classify this man as a wolf in sheep clothing.
(something the Parishees would say also)

Charles Finney was a Presbyterian minister (he studied under George Gale) , so there are things about his theology I do not affirm. I worry about his methods as well. But his much of his doctrine was actually close to Jonathan Edward's, which I appreciate.

None of that matters now. We are not his judge. God certainly used him for His kingdom. It is never the man, always God.