how many lives is enough??

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Copperhead

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You have fallen into the error that islam wants you to fall. You say, 'Many muslims are decent people who try to feed their families and make a living'. Like that is the supreme test of 'goodness'. Everyone, be they good or evil, is trying to feed their families. So what?

islam is a threat even though they are not killing everybody. Their doctrine is a threat. They as a people are a threat because they adhere to their doctrine. People, like you, are willing to accept them as long as they are not killing everybody. And when you accept them, they grow in numbers till the right time to spring their killing ways and doctrine again.

islam is an enemy to every country where it exists. It's intention is to take over that country and place it under Sharia Law. And every muslim is a particapent in that effort.

Stranger

No, I have not fallen into anything. I personally know several Muslims, just as I know several Hindus and others. Most of these folks are just trying to earn a decent living and provide for their children just like the rest of us. I even have religious oriented discussions with a Muslim fellow that I bump into occasionally. It is all done without any animus on either of our parts. We may disagree on theology, but we can also share a laugh as well.

Actually, there are threats from false Christians also. There are many with a theological bent in Christianity also that would put their own version of law in place that would probably resemble Sharia in many ways. You see hints of it when a Christian group will break fellowship over which translated version of the scripture is the correct one. There have been church splits over stuff as stupid as whether Adam had a belly button or not. True story.

There are many Muslims folks who want nothing to do with having to live under harsh Sharia law. You do know that there are many strains of Islamic thought, just like there are many strains of Christian thought, right? Or are you that myopic to not see that? How about that one group will not accept another group that claims lineage from the youngest daughter of Mohammed, Fatima. And the hatred is the other direction also. Sunni and Shia have been at each other's throats ever since. Muslims groups of different stripes fight each other with as much zeal, each claiming to have the authorized and true Islamic teaching.

And this nonsense that pours out our direction isn't so much about Islam in particular as it is about militaristic, dictatorial government conquest. It wasn't about Islam that Yasser Arafat ordered many of his own people hung by butcher's hooks thru the jaw until they were dead over Islam. it was over disagreements over temporal, earthly power.
 
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Stranger

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No, I have not fallen into anything. I personally know several Muslims, just as I know several Hindus and others. Most of these folks are just trying to earn a decent living and provide for their children just like the rest of us. I even have religious oriented discussions with a Muslim fellow that I bump into occasionally. It is all done without any animus on either of our parts. We may disagree on theology, but we can also share a laugh as well.

Actually, there are threats from false Christians also. There are many with a theological bent in Christianity also that would put their own version of law in place that would probably resemble Sharia in many ways. There are many Muslims folks who want nothing to do with having to live under harsh Sharia law. You do know that there are many strains of Islamic thought, just like there are many strains of Christian thought, right? Or are you that myopic to not see that? Muslims groups of different stripes fight each other with as much zeal.

If the muslims don't want to live under Shariah Law then they are not muslim. All muslims participate toward the goal of placing Shariah Law over the land where they live. First of all they want it over themselves as muslims. Then they want to place it on people of the country they live in.

I don't care how much infighting there is among muslims. They all are under Shariah Law and want Shariah Law over the people of the country where they live.

As I said, you, like most others, have fallen to the lie that there are good muslims and bad muslims. All muslims contribute to the idea of Sahriah Law over everyone. Whether they say so or not.

If you say you know someone who is muslim but does not follow Shariah Law, I ask, then why is he a muslim?

Stranger
 
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Copperhead

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If the muslims don't want to live under Shariah Law then they are not muslim. All muslims participate toward the goal of placing Shariah Law over the land where they live. First of all they want it over themselves as muslims. Then they want to place it on people of the country they live in.

I don't care how much infighting there is among muslims. They all are under Shariah Law and want Shariah Law over the people of the country where they live.

As I said, you, like most others, have fallen to the lie that there are good muslims and bad muslims. All muslims contribute to the idea of Sahriah Law over everyone. Whether they say so or not.

If you say you know someone who is muslim but does not follow Shariah Law, I ask, then why is he a muslim?

Stranger

You are arguing one group over another. You understand little of the dynamics of various strains of Islam. And even then, just as there are liberal and conservative Jews, liberal and conservative Christians, there are liberal and conservative Muslims. And many are only Muslim in the sense that they were born into it. There are many who don't hold to the ultra conservative leanings of some in Islam.

There are some that rule from the quran that all Jews and Christians are to be isolated and are infidels. But there is a ruling from Mohammed himself outside the quran that says peace should be made with Jews and Christians. So you see, just like some arguments go on regarding scriptural things in Christianity and Judaism, the same thing goes on in Islam.

And I quote from a ruling of Mohammed that many ultra conservative Muslims refuse to acknowledge...

"Even as they honor and respect me, so shall Muslims care for that people as being under our protection and whensoever any distress or discomfort shall overtake Christians, Muslims shall hold themselves in duty bound to aid and care for them," Prophet Mohammed wrote. "For they are a people subject to my Nation, obedient to their word, whose helpers also they are."

This covenantal ruling has been confirmed by many scholars as accurate. So a significant portion of Muslims are not following the prophet's words and directives. I would suggest that the moderate ones who are not hell bent on causing trouble are taking such words to heart. Now, who is the true Muslim?
 
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Stranger

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You are arguing one group over another. You understand little of the dynamics of various strains of Islam. And even then, just as there are liberal and conservative Jews, liberal and conservative Christians, there are liberal and conservative Muslims. And many are only Muslim in the sense that they were born into it. There are many who don't hold to the ultra conservative leanings of some in Islam.

There are some that rule from the quran that all Jews and Christians are to be isolated and are infidels. But there is a ruling from Mohammed himself outside the quran that says peace should be made with Jews and Christians. So you see, just like some arguments go on regarding scriptural things in Christianity and Judaism, the same thing goes on in Islam.

And I quote from a ruling of Mohammed that many ultra conservative Muslims refuse to acknowledge...

"Even as they honor and respect me, so shall Muslims care for that people as being under our protection and whensoever any distress or discomfort shall overtake (Christians), Muslims shall hold themselves in duty bound to aid and care for them," Prophet Mohammed wrote. "For they are a people subject to my Nation, obedient to their word, whose helpers also they are."

No, I am not arguing one group over another. They are all islam. Show me a muslim that despises Shariah Law. And I will show you one who is not a muslim.

muslims and mohammed don't mind 'taken care of Christians' as long as the Christians are under their control and heel. As long as Christians submit to the demands of Shariah Law.

The muslim, because he is a muslim, is a threat to anything Christian. They want to appear good and acceptable to you until the time when they have the numbers. Then, it's obey, obey, obey. And off with your head if you don't.

Don't fall for it, as you are falling for it now. Do your homework.

Stranger
 
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Copperhead

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No, I am not arguing one group over another. They are all islam. Show me a muslim that despises Shariah Law. And I will show you one who is not a muslim.

muslims and mohammed don't mind 'taken care of Christians' as long as the Christians are under their control and heel. As long as Christians submit to the demands of Shariah Law.

The muslim, because he is a muslim, is a threat to anything Christian. They want to appear good and acceptable to you until the time when they have the numbers. Then, it's obey, obey, obey. And off with your head if you don't.

Don't fall for it, as you are falling for it now. Do your homework.

Stranger

Prove me wrong it the quote from Mohammed I posted. Do your homework.
 

Stranger

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Prove me wrong it the quote from Mohammed I posted. Do your homework.

Pay attention to what I said. I don't deny the quote from the koran. But, as I said, mohammed and muslims don't mind taking care of Christians when they are under their heel and control. Note the phrase 'being under our protection'. That means the Christian is under their authority.

Now, do your homework and get away from this deception you are under and are teaching.

Stranger
 

Copperhead

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Pay attention to what I said. I don't deny the quote from the koran. But, as I said, mohammed and muslims don't mind taking care of Christians when they are under their heel and control. Note the phrase 'being under our protection'. That means the Christian is under their authority.

Now, do your homework and get away from this deception you are under and are teaching.

Stranger

And pay attention to what I wrote. I didn't mention the quote came from the Quran, as it didn't. This discussion is useless. You are talking but not listening. That is required for a fruitful conversation.
 

Stranger

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And pay attention to what I wrote. I didn't mention the quote came from the Quran, as it didn't. This discussion is useless. You are talking but not listening. That is required for a fruitful conversation.

You mentioned a quote from mohammed. mohammed wrote the koran, supposedly. If it is not from the koran, big deal. It is from mohammed. So let me repeat what I said in post #26. muslims don't mind taking care of Christians when they are under their heel and control. Note the phrase, 'being under our protection'. That means Christians are under their authority.

So, again, pay attention, do your homework. You failed to respond to these statements of mine.

Stranger
 

mjrhealth

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Really? When has the U.S. for instance condoned disemboweling pregnant women as a normal course of action in military operations? Given an order for military people to cut the breasts off nursing women or torture and kill children in front of their parents? Condoned tying up people and hanging them from structures by wire and then pouring fuel on them and cooking them alive? How about gang rape and sodomy of women while their husbands are forced to watch before being killed themselves? Or how about skinning children alive while their parents are forced to watch?
It is so easy to forget teh atrocities caused by all sides in a war, when someone else comes doing it to you. remember vietnam, a sore point for many, still civilians dying being maimed by american french australian bombs, mines, agent orange, How do you think they look upon america and all these other nation as they watch still today there family members dying. There are no winners in war.
 
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Copperhead

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Actually, Mohammed didn't know how to write. Muslims claim that because Mohammed couldn't write, the quran is a miracle. The quran was written by others. And even the hadith, in Burkhari vol VI no. 558 and 562, states that Mohammed even forgot what was written. And it is not all that Mohammed had to say. Many other of his rulings and other comments are found in the hadith among the commentaries.

I would pay more attention to your comments if they were based on a better understanding of the nuances of Islam. Your assertions show a myopic view of the dynamics of Islam. They are as dynamic as Christianity and Judaism. There are various schools of thought and they do not necessarily agree most of the time.

A commentary written by Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi emphasizes this......

Islam teaches us that we should be friendly to all people. Islam teaches us that we should deal even with our enemies with justice and fairness. Allah says in the Qur'an in the beginning of the same Surat Al-Ma’dah: “...O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealings and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, that is next to piety. Fear Allah, indeed Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do...” [ Al-Ma’dah 5:8 ]

And that has nothing to do with whether Christians are under the control of Muslims. Again, you speak from ignorance and do not understand the diversity of Islam. For one to have an effect on one's adversaries, you must be familiar with their beliefs. Just like to effectively beat and enemy on the field of battle, you have to know how to divide and conquer them by exploiting weaknesses in their strategy. If you can pit them against each other, they are less effective against you.
 

aspen

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Really? When has the U.S. for instance condoned disemboweling pregnant women as a normal course of action in military operations? Given an order for military people to cut the breasts off nursing women or torture and kill children in front of their parents? Condoned tying up people and hanging them from structures by wire and then pouring fuel on them and cooking them alive? How about gang rape and sodomy of women while their husbands are forced to watch before being killed themselves? Or how about skinning children alive while their parents are forced to watch?

You confuse the incidental deaths of people that get hurt or killed in military maneuvers. But no U.S. military component condones or participates in brutality on the level mentioned.

No, these thugs take evil to new depths of depravity. You would be very hard pressed to show examples of organized behavior on the part of most any western nation that equates to their level. Don't even begin to equate putting panties on someones head or making them stand for hours to weaken their resolve against talking with the things mentioned above. That is dishonest on several levels. And true, some people have suffered and died in military attacks, but most civilized nations make every attempt to avoid civilian casualties whenever possible. These depraved individuals actively seek civilian atrocities as a normal course of action and to increase the terror level.

Have you been in combat?
 

Stranger

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It is so easy to forget teh atrocities caused by all sides in a war, when someone else comes doing it to you. remember vietnam, a sore point for many, still civilians dying being maimed by american french australian bombs, mines, agent orange, How do you think they look upon america and all these other nation as they watch still today there family members dying. There are no winners in war.

How about the atrocities of the yankee army and government against the Southern people and soldiers during and after the War between the States. Everyone likes to forget that. And that is still taking place today.

Stranger
 

Copperhead

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It is so easy to forget teh atrocities caused by all sides in a war, when someone else comes doing it to you. remember vietnam, a sore point for many, still civilians dying being maimed by american french australian bombs, mines, agent orange, How do you think they look upon america and all these other nation as they watch still today there family members dying. There are no winners in war.

War does leave some nasty scars and effects that continue over time. I do remember Viet Nam quite well because of my military service. And actually, today in Viet Nam, Americans and America in general are held in high regard among the people. You really need to broaden your understanding of the world as it is. I keep in close contact with those that have dealings with Viet Nam. It left a major mark on me and I like to keep up with Viet Nam as it is today. I often talk with many Vietnamese that have family still in country and Moung from the Cambodia / Viet Nam border areas, And contrary to your assertion, the Vietnamese actually look upon America and Americans quite favorably. It is a great country with fantastic people.
 

Copperhead

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How about the atrocities of the yankee army and government against the Southern people and soldiers during and after the War between the States. Everyone likes to forget that. And that is still taking place today.

Stranger

I gather you don't like to read other folk's posts in their entirety or has a reading comprehension problem. I did state to the effect that we have had some checkered periods and are not as pure as the wind driven snow at times and have had a few bad apples in the bunch.
 

Stranger

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Actually, Mohammed didn't know how to write. Muslims claim that because Mohammed couldn't write, the quran is a miracle. The quran was written by others. And even the hadith, in Burkhari vol VI no. 558 and 562, states that Mohammed even forgot what was written. And it is not all that Mohammed had to say. Many other of his rulings and other comments are found in the hadith among the commentaries.

I would pay more attention to your comments if they were based on a better understanding of the nuances of Islam. Your assertions show a myopic view of the dynamics of Islam. They are as dynamic as Christianity and Judaism. There are various schools of thought and they do not necessarily agree most of the time.

A commentary written by Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi emphasizes this......

Islam teaches us that we should be friendly to all people. Islam teaches us that we should deal even with our enemies with justice and fairness. Allah says in the Qur'an in the beginning of the same Surat Al-Ma’dah: “...O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealings and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, that is next to piety. Fear Allah, indeed Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do...” [ Al-Ma’dah 5:8 ]

And that has nothing to do with whether Christians are under the control of Muslims. Again, you speak from ignorance and do not understand the diversity of Islam. For one to have an effect on one's adversaries, you must be familiar with their beliefs. Just like to effectively beat and enemy on the field of battle, you have to know how to divide and conquer them by exploiting weaknesses in their strategy. If you can pit them against each other, they are less effective against you.

I don't care how much attention you pay to my comments. I can see by the way you post this statement of yours that you don't know what you are talking about. Why didn't you address my post instead of just making a post? Scared?

You haven't addressed anything I have said. Every muslim will adhere to Shariah Law. Or he is not a muslim. islam operates and conquers through numbers. They wait till they have the numbers. In the mean time, they fool and decieve people like you who think some of them are good, and nice, and hardworking. Till they get the numbers, then all hell breaks lose. Then you and everyone is just 'aghast'. My, my, how can this ever happen here? Well, it happens 'here' when idiots buy into what you and others are buying into.

muslims can lie to you, for the furtherance of their goal of Shariah Law over everyone, and, according to islam, they are right in doing so.

So, is dr. muzammil siddiqi, a muslim? Guess you see how far I believe him.

The question is...are you muslim?

Stranger
 

Stranger

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I gather you don't like to read other folk's posts in their entirety or has a reading comprehension problem. I did state to the effect that we have had some checkered periods and are not as pure as the wind driven snow at times and have had a few bad apples in the bunch.

Really, so as I said, how about the atrocities of the yankee army and government against the Southern people and soldiers before, during, and after the War between the States?

I don't recall you mentioning that. Your broad brush of generalities doesn't work. So, do you admit the atrocities of the yankee government against the Southern States and people and Confederate government? That is still taking place today.

Stranger
 

Copperhead

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I don't care how much attention you pay to my comments. I can see by the way you post this statement of yours that you don't know what you are talking about. Why didn't you address my post instead of just making a post? Scared?

You haven't addressed anything I have said. Every muslim will adhere to Shariah Law. Or he is not a muslim. islam operates and conquers through numbers. They wait till they have the numbers. In the mean time, they fool and decieve people like you who think some of them are good, and nice, and hardworking. Till they get the numbers, then all hell breaks lose. Then you and everyone is just 'aghast'. My, my, how can this ever happen here? Well, it happens 'here' when idiots buy into what you and others are buying into.

muslims can lie to you, for the furtherance of their goal of Shariah Law over everyone, and, according to islam, they are right in doing so.

So, is dr. muzammil siddiqi, a muslim? Guess you see how far I believe him.

The question is...are you muslim?

Stranger

Yes, Siddiqi is a Muslim. His comments were from a rebuttal to a non Muslim that was asserting that Muslims think all non Muslims should be subjugated and either accept Islam or be killed. It was countering a claim that Muslims are not to be friendly to others that live around them, in or out of their control.

Every Muslim will adhere to Sharia Law, if the ultra conservative Muslim school of thought has its way. But it is not the teaching of all Islam. Different schools of thought view this differently. Even what constitutes adherence to Sharia law. Your assertion again evidences a idea that there is only one branch of Islam and one school of thought, and all of them hold the same understanding of what constitutes Sharia Law.

Not in any way am I Muslim. I am solidly Christian. I do know quite a bit about Islam and many of the teachings and diversity. Again, it pays to know one's adversary. Something I learned from my formal military training. And it is very helpful to have a good concept of the diversity in order to witness to them. After all, Paul was very familiar with Greek philosophy and religious beliefs and used that knowledge to leverage a foot hold in arguing his beliefs to those in Athens on Mars Hill. Just beating folks over the head with a large print Bible doesn't do the trick sometimes. You have to find some common ground and work from there.
 

Copperhead

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Really, so as I said, how about the atrocities of the yankee army and government against the Southern people and soldiers before, during, and after the War between the States?

I don't recall you mentioning that. Your broad brush of generalities doesn't work. So, do you admit the atrocities of the yankee government against the Southern States and people and Confederate government? That is still taking place today.

Stranger

No, I didn't go thru a detailed analysis of each and every conflict, and each action of every individual in each of those conflicts. Now you are being stuck on stupid and just wanting to argue. The southern soldiers were not all that stellar either. There was plenty of fault to go around on both sides. There were many clandestine raids done by southern soldiers that harassed civilians. And look at the Free State of Jones event and let me know if you think the South was all that pure. So don't play some idea here that the South was as pure as a new born baby in the conflict.

Sure, the south was beat and put upon in a bad way by the north. I generally have held a pro-south position in regards to the early secession. But that is about as far as it goes.

Notice my screen name... "Copperhead". That is a name given to Iowans who opposed going to war with south during that time and it is why I use that screen name. Probably didn't know that little morsel of history did ya?
 
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Sword

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Yeah, like the first war we ever got into as a nation.... the Barbary Pirates, which were Islamic thugs that would capture our merchant seamen that were primarily delivering fish and other food from the Americas to the Mediterranean area. And it is just decadent of us to stop a a bunch of insane idiots that were hell bent on killing anyone who didn't fit into their paradigm, the Nazis. And it was pure greed that we liberated S. Korea from the idiots that are still hell bent on starting WW III. And of course, we were just plain greedy to protect S. Viet Nam from the communist north, that after we pulled out and didn't keep our promises to the S. Vietnamese, the North invaded and killed many thousands of S. Vietnamese and placed hundred of thousands into "re-education" camps to work and many died in. It must have been greed to want a bunch of poor farmer's rice, correct?

Sure, we are not as pure as the wind driven snow, and we have not held ourselves to high standards occasionally, but we have not, as a nation, condoned anything remotely similar to what is going on with these barbaric folks under the guise of Islam. We have had a few bad apples in the group, for sure, but we as a people have demanded a higher standard most of the time.

Not being at peace frequently is not a negative condition. It has been primarily a positive one, as we were the ones at the time who had the ability and the resolve to stop bad folks from hurting, enslaving, and killing innocent people. You would have Mein Kampf as required reading if it hadn't been for us coming to your aid. GB would be a satellite state to Germany. And it must have been greed that caused us to come to your aid. Let's see, I don't recall us even asking for anything back or paying for what we provided. Sounds down right greedy of us doesn't it?
Maybe you never looked at the other side of all of it. Please have a look at the war profitering in America. Really you dont know that the guy s who told you we must go to war . weapons of mass destrution. Donald rumfield? You never knew he was director of the company who sold every thing to the army? wake up. every war is for greed.
If not why are so mant country who have nothing . Why is the gold ole us of a not going in to war for them. Caus e there nothing of value in there country.