How many on this forum...

[NayborBear]

The separation clause and first amendment would both have to be rescinded. I don't think that's likely in our lifetime.

The separation clause was put in in direct contrast to the then mandated English Episcopalian religion. Which isn't directly catholosism. But if you've ever been to both? They're not that different either. (un oh! here comes the hate mail )
Yet? Having said that, There've been more than a coupla instances in the O.T. where "Yah'-uh-'Vay" allowed (or even mandated) a "counter force" to "punish" His wayward and rebellious and stupid children!
Yet? I see no cause for concern here (ya-RIGHT!)
Ain't nothing like that going on round these parts today is there?
Anyone for a cup of Jihad?
If it ain't as bad as you wished it wasn't?
Tis worse that you thought!

 

[Button]

The separation clause was put in in direct contrast to the then mandated English Episcopalian religion. Which isn't directly catholosism. But if you've ever been to both? They're not that different either. (un oh! here comes the hate mail )
Yet? Having said that, There've been more than a coupla instances in the O.T. where "Yah'-uh-'Vay" allowed (or even mandated) a "counter force" to "punish" His wayward and rebellious and stupid children!
Yet? I see no cause for concern here (ya-RIGHT!)
Ain't nothing like that going on round these parts today is there?
Anyone for a cup of Jihad?
If it ain't as bad as you wished it wasn't?
Tis worse that you thought!

Do you drink to excess?

 

[NayborBear]

Do you drink to excess?

Used to do even more than that! But that was before GOD'S "corrective bargaining" reasoned me away from it! (true story)
Isaiah 28:
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

 

[Brakelite]

I think government imposing one religious practice right on Americans would be met with strong pushback. Especially given the number of Muslims in this country.

Not what prophecy declares. "All the world shall wonder after the beast".... "Caused ALL, great and small, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark..."... "who would not worship should be killed"...

 

[Button]

Not what prophecy declares. "All the world shall wonder after the beast".... "Caused ALL, great and small, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark..."... "who would not worship should be killed"...

That doesn't speak of an absolute.
If it does,it means God is behind it because God has dominion and is sovereign over his creation.

Our AD calendar is in error in calculating time according to the birth of Christ. Jesus was born between 6 and 4 BCE. As would have to be the case when Herod the Great reigned as King of Judea from 37BCE to 4 BCE.

Our calendar today starts with year 1 AD because of a Monk named Dionysius Exiguus. In 525 CE he created the calendar system of AD and BC. He then calculated the birth of Jesus as year 1 AD,which led to a no year of " zero".Which led to a 4 to 6 year discrepancy. Because history shows Herod the Great died in 4 BCE.

The BCE system is still in use to reflect by contrast to the AD system and actual history ,the aforementioned the inaccuracy afforded by actions of the Monk Exiguus.

The AD calendar is in use still due to tradition.

When our Calendar and understanding through faith of the birth date of Jesus is in error,per historic record, I think we do a disservice to God and ourselves thinking a prophecy for a world John could never imagine thousands of years in future , such a what you refer to above is,an absolute

Because it tells is what we can expect God to have planned for us. And allow to happen to us.

God sent Jesus to save the world from its sins. And yet, if we believe Revelation is true and pending,we believe despite that,God is perpetually angry and vengeful toward the world.

Where Sin still exists. And exists because God first gave his law to the first created humans.

 

[rockytopva]

Religious Congregations - Very young I thought if you were in the right doctrine you were good to go.

And there arose another generation after them, which knew not the Lord - Judges 2:10

All under the same teachings. I have come to believe that when the heavens look down it is on a generation rather than a teaching...

And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. - Luke 11:29

As far as religious congregations I believe we must look into the generation more than the doctrine and denomination. A generation can go bad all within the same religious instruction.

 

[shepherdsword]

Hardly? I agree. Yet I've read seen, or heard no criticism of their policies and ideas outside of the left leaning MSM. Certainly not on this forum. Is there anythingin the aforementioned/attached article you disagree with? Is they anything you would oppose if the government were to suggest implementing?

I absolutely oppose any government mandate that restricts the free expression of religion. People should be free to worship on any day they choose. I suggest everyday.

 

[Brakelite]

I absolutely oppose any government mandate that restricts the free expression of religion. People should be free to worship on any day they choose. I suggest everyday.

Everyday worship is essential for anyone who loves Jesus enough to want to spend time with Him.
When we start talking about a test day from work, and seeing it aside for family, worship, and treating that day as sacred, them we are getting into the realm of the first 4 commandments of God,. That deal directly with man's relationship with God. For any government or church to manage a day, any day, they are presuming they have more authority than God Himself.
Mandating a day as sacred and imposing civil power over spiritual matters is not new. What many groups, such as the Heritage Foundation, labor unions, Sunday sacredness advocates, and the pope and all his subjects, are pursuing forward with and using civil power to do God's work is spiritual adultery.

 

[shepherdsword]

Everyday worship is essential for anyone who loves Jesus enough to want to spend time with Him.
When we start talking about a test day from work, and seeing it aside for family, worship, and treating that day as sacred, them we are getting into the realm of the first 4 commandments of God,. That deal directly with man's relationship with God. For any government or church to manage a day, any day, they are presuming they have more authority than God Himself.
Mandating a day as sacred and imposing civil power over spiritual matters is not new. What many groups, such as the Heritage Foundation, labor unions, Sunday sacredness advocates, and the pope and all his subjects, are pursuing forward with and using civil power to do God's work is spiritual adultery.

The rest in the new covenant is given in Hebrews 3-4. It is the reality of which those that have faith enter into.

 

[Brakelite]

The rest in the new covenant is given in Hebrews 3-4. It is the reality of which those that have faith enter into.

The rest? To grant such rest a pre-eminence that supersedes God's specific commandment to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy, one should be able to offer some evidence supporting such an edict. In the many years I have been contributing to Christian forums, no-one has yet been able to provide one. Just one biblical instruction, edict, commandment, in the NT , a "thus saith the Lord", that clearly abrogates the 4th commandment, would suffice. Alas, there is none. And anyone stubborn enough to take their rejection of the Sabbath to the grave must answer to God Himself and give his reasons. Honesty compels one to admit, that any attempt to justify Sunday sacredness in light of God's holy law will not stand up. Just as abortion will not stand up against the 6th commandment. Statues can not stand up against the second. Disobedience in any of its forms, even with religious tradition to justify it, will not stand.

 

[shepherdsword]

The rest? To grant such rest a pre-eminence that supersedes God's specific commandment to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy, one should be able to offer some evidence supporting such an edict. In the many years I have been contributing to Christian forums, no-one has yet been able to provide one. Just one biblical instruction, edict, commandment, in the NT , a "thus saith the Lord", that clearly abrogates the 4th commandment, would suffice. Alas, there is none. And anyone stubborn enough to take their rejection of the Sabbath to the grave must answer to God Himself and give his reasons. Honesty compels one to admit, that any attempt to justify Sunday sacredness in light of God's holy law will not stand up. Just as abortion will not stand up against the 6th commandment. Statues can not stand up against the second. Disobedience in any of its forms, even with religious tradition to justify it, will not stand.

Seventh day Adventists have the same issue the Pharisees had...an unhealthy adherence and misinterpretation of the sabbath. In fact, they crucified the Lord for healing on the sabbath. The author of Hebrews enlightens the eyes of those that walk by faith as to the true meaning of the sabbath rest:

Heb 3:7-11
Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Let us not be like them....keeping a sabbath day but failing to enter into His rest.

Heb 4:3-9

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

As we see, the sabbath day is a shadow and type of a rest that remains for the people of God to enter into. They could keep the day but still not enter in...don't be like them.

 

[Taken]

How many on this forum...

Regarding Forced Religion by the State?
No.

USA Was Founded on the Standards and Principles of Christianity.

We the People Agreed.

We the People seat “Congressional Representatives”, in honored seats…to Represent the People According TO the fixed objective Standards and Principles of Christianity.
( whom such “elected Reps) swear an Oral OATH to do… per the Constitution…so established…under such Standards and Principles)…
THEN so too After a verbally sworn OATH, the Rep. Signs his Signature confirming his oral testament…on a legal document of Testament… with the Date, Expressly identified…in the year of our Lord.

The Parallels… of the US Constitution…TO the Scriptural Teachings…are Bold without Question for Any Student desiring to endeavor to Read, Learn, Compare, the US Constitution (for, of, by the People), to Scripture ( for all People).

An in-depth study…would Reveal….What was Established…and “When”, “HOW” “Who”, sitting in honored seats… began, chipping away corrupting, what they swore to UPHOLD…

And the repetitive “chaos, division, ignorance”, such Representative corruption has vomited upon the People, as business as usual.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Jericho]

Practical, in that history repeats. The world has ahau many times, suffered from over zealous Christians seeking to impose their faith on the world by law and compulsion. If you understand anything of history at all, you would know that nothing positive results from such.

You mentioned the Catholic Church during the Holy Roman Empire era. That was when a religious organization, the Catholic Church, exerted control over political affairs. That was a very different situation than it is now. There is no chance of that happening here in the U.S. because the U.S. Constitution is simply not designed for such a system. What we do see is Christian influence on governmental affairs, which should be a good thing.

And I would agree there is a healthy separation between the political and the religious, though it can be taken to the extremes. When God structured Israel, He placed Moses over the civil affairs and Aaron over the spiritual affairs. It was a separation between church and state of sorts, but with the distinction that the state was not completely secular; only that there were separate leaders over both. And that is the case now. Trump is a political leader over civil affairs, not a religious leader over spiritual affairs.

Secondly, prophetic. Revelation 13 speaks of a nation that has Christlike beginnings and appearance, but speaks like Satan. How does Satan speak? How does Christ speak? How would that difference become manifest in a nation powerful enough to influence the entire planet? What would be the result? Think about these things on the context of scripture and history and tell me they're nothing to be concerned about. Concerned, not afraid.

I don't see any Christlike beginnings in Revelation 13. There is a religious component to the beast system, but it is Satanic\Luciferian from the start.

 

[Brakelite]

Seventh day Adventists have the same issue the Pharisees had...an unhealthy adherence and misinterpretation of the sabbath. In fact, they crucified the Lord for healing on the sabbath. The author of Hebrews enlightens the eyes of those that walk by faith as to the true meaning of the sabbath rest:

Heb 3:7-11
Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Let us not be like them....keeping a sabbath day but failing to enter into His rest.

Heb 4:3-9

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

As we see, the sabbath day is a shadow and type of a rest that remains for the people of God to enter into. They could keep the day but still not enter in...don't be like them.

So you think Israel was wrong to observe the Sabbath, as per the commandment, and God punished them for doing so by leading them in circles for 40 years? Or did Israel observe the Sabbath carelessly and without love?

And you compare Seventh Day Adventists to those who cried out "crucify Him" because Jesus healed on the Sabbath?

And you believe Seventh Day Adventists are not looking forward to the second coming and entering into their rest because they focus too much on obeying Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath?
And they could keep the day, and still not enter in. I agree. "And many shall come and say, did we not do this, and did we not do that...I say unto you, depart from Me ye workers of iniquity".

 Do you know the meaning of that word, iniquity?
Who was Jesus addressing here? The ones who were lawless. The ones who rejected the law. The ones who claimed they could live righteously by doing stuff without reference to obedience to the law of God. Iniquity...anomia... without law. Do you think it not a little disturbing that so much of Christendom is preaching that the Ten Commandments are no longer valid? Christians are good to go so long as they love one another? That they can minister, work miracles, cast out demons, do many wonderful works while in a state of disobedience to God's Law? Are they not precisely fulfilling the role Jesus laid out above? Depart from Me Jesus said.
“28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? 29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. ”
Exodus 16:28-29 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

“10 Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness. 11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. 12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them. 14 But I wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out. 15 Yet also I lifted up my hand unto them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands; 16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols. 18 But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols: 19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; 20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God. ”
Ezekiel 20:10-16, 18-20 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Tell me. Who's sabbaths are we discussing here? Whose rest are we to enter into? Do we as mortal imperfect moral viruses have the authority to change God's laws and be so presumptuous as to give another man "permission" to observe the Sabbath?

Do you truly believe Adventists are unjustified in obeying the 4th commandment?

 

[Brakelite]

I don't see any Christlike beginnings in Revelation 13. There is a religious component to the beast system, but it is Satanic\Luciferian from the start.

You think the reference to a lamb is by accident or a mistake?

 

[shepherdsword]

So you think Israel was wrong to observe the Sabbath, as per the commandment, and God punished them for doing so by leading them in circles for 40 years? Or did Israel observe the Sabbath carelessly and without love?

And you compare Seventh Day Adventists to those who cried out "crucify Him" because Jesus healed on the Sabbath?

And you believe Seventh Day Adventists are not looking forward to the second coming and entering into their rest because they focus too much on obeying Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath?
And they could keep the day, and still not enter in. I agree. "And many shall come and say, did we not do this, and did we not do that...I say unto you, depart from Me ye workers of iniquity".

 Do you know the meaning of that word, iniquity?
Who was Jesus addressing here? The ones who were lawless. The ones who rejected the law. The ones who claimed they could live righteously by doing stuff without reference to obedience to the law of God. Iniquity...anomia... without law. Do you think it not a little disturbing that so much of Christendom is preaching that the Ten Commandments are no longer valid? Christians are good to go so long as they love one another? That they can minister, work miracles, cast out demons, do many wonderful works while in a state of disobedience to God's Law? Are they not precisely fulfilling the role Jesus laid out above? Depart from Me Jesus said.
“28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? 29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. ”
Exodus 16:28-29 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

“10 Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness. 11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. 12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. 13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them. 14 But I wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out. 15 Yet also I lifted up my hand unto them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands; 16 Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols. 18 But I said unto their children in the wilderness, Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers, neither observe their judgments, nor defile yourselves with their idols: 19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; 20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God. ”
Ezekiel 20:10-16, 18-20 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Tell me. Who's sabbaths are we discussing here? Whose rest are we to enter into? Do we as mortal imperfect moral viruses have the authority to change God's laws and be so presumptuous as to give another man "permission" to observe the Sabbath?

Do you truly believe Adventists are unjustified in obeying the 4th commandment?

We have been going back and forth on this for years, maybe decades when you include the other forum. I think you understand well that I don't condemn anyone for keeping or not keeping a certain day. However, when we truly enter into the rest of Christ we cease from our own works:

Heb 4:8-10
For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

This makes it clear that the true reset isn't the sabbath day but a reality of ceasing from our own efforts and entering into the works prepared from the foundation of the world.

 

[Brakelite]

However, when we truly enter into the rest of Christ we cease from our own works:

Aaaah and there it is. The same old stodgy argumentum ad nauseam, when you run out of arguments you resort to suggesting sabbath keepers are honouring the day in order to earn salvation or add to what Christ has already accomplished. Tell me. How far would you get if you suggest to your wife that the only reason she keeps the 7th commandment is because she has to impress you?

 

[Brakelite]

You mentioned the Catholic Church during the Holy Roman Empire era. That was when a religious organization, the Catholic Church, exerted control over political affairs. That was a very different situation than it is now

You are right, the circumstances were very different 400 years ago. However, that hasn't changed the Catholic Church from following her long held agenda... to rule the world. She had merely changed her tactics, out of necessity in a changing world, but her ambitions and goals have never changed.

There is no chance of that happening here in the U.S. because the U.S. Constitution is simply not designed for such a system. What we do see is Christian influence on governmental affairs, which should be a good thing.

You think manipulating the American president into committing troops and lives to the Vietnam war a good thing? Was assassinating president Kennedy because he refused to go as far as the local cardinal demanded (among other things) a good thing?

Trump is a political leader over civil affairs, not a religious leader over spiritual affairs.

He is following his master's orders. Jesuit trained. And fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Button]

We have been going back and forth on this for years, maybe decades when you include the other forum. I think you understand well that I don't condemn anyone for keeping or not keeping a certain day. However, when we truly enter into the rest of Christ we cease from our own works:

Heb 4:8-10
For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

This makes it clear that the true reset isn't the sabbath day but a reality of ceasing from our own efforts and entering into the works prepared from the foundation of the world.

I think when we encounter those who are adamantly opposed to Sabbath,use phrases like,Sabbath keepers in a snide way, insist it isn't for "Christians", it is then important to recognize what the Book of John teaches us is not just true,but on display in print ,right before our eyes.

Not everyone who says to him, Lord,Lord......are his.

 

[shepherdsword]

Not everyone who says to him, Lord,Lord......are his.

True. But he is the one who decides who are his. Like the pharisees you would condemn someone to hell for not keeping the sabbath your way. That's why they crucified the Lord...because he didn't keep the sabbath according to their expectation. They thought, like you, that they were righteous and despised others.