How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[Barrd]

Scripture teaches us that Jesus didn't ascend into heaven until 40 days later. "Preparing a place for you" refers to first resurrection and rapture.

Luke 23:43 - If you research the original doctrines of the NT, you will see that there is no punctuation. I would submit that it is translator bias. When you remove the comma you can see that Jesus was simply comforting the thief on the cross. We see in verse 42 that the thief was only interested in coming into his kingdom. The thief was not concerned about when he would be there, rather just being there was what he wanted. The correct way to read verse 43 is without punctuation. And according to scriptural evidence, neither Jesus nor the thief went to paradise on the day they died because scripture states that Jesus ascended to the Father some 40 days later after His resurrection. Lastly, the terms "paradise" and "the tree of life" describes a place on the New Earth, Rev 2:7, Rev 22:2, Rev 22:14 and Rev 22:19.

ATP, there is no comma because Koine Greek doesn't have any punctuation. Read the link I provided. Learn something new. I promise, it won't hurt.

 

[OzSpen]

You do realize that Jesus didn't ascend into heaven until like 40 days later, right?

Jesus is talking about where he went at the moment of death when crucified - to Paradise, i.e. heaven (cf Rev 2:7 ESV).

 

[OzSpen]

Aww, Shucks, Oz....
Google did all the work.

I just copied and pasted.

That's why knowledge of NT Greek is so important when doing exegesis, if such is available to you. I'd recommend all who are able to handle learning any foreign language to take an introductory course in NT Greek. I find it best to take that class in the classroom if possible, but such a lot is available online these days.

However, for those who are unable to do this, having some major, committee translations to compare is the next best thing. These are the ones I'd recommend: ESV (which is an updated RSV), NRSV, NASB, NIV, NLT, REB (Revised English Bible), NAB (Roman Catholic New American Bible). I have a copy of The Complete Parallel Bible (where 'complete' is a misnomer), which includes, NRSV, REB, NAB and the NJB (Roman Catholic New Jerusalem Bible) [New York / Oxford: Oxford University Press1993). I would steer right away from one person paraphrase Bibles such as The Living Bible, J B Phillips NT, The Good News Bible, and The Message.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I've been listening to you guys debating this issue, and it's been interesting...
But frankly, I think you are both wrong.

I certainly do not think anyone goes to some creepy Hadean underworld when they die...the idea just gives me the shivers.
Nor do I think we go into soul sleep...though I have to admit, I'm not so sure about that one.

What I think (not what I know but what I think) is that, like the thief on the cross, those of us who are saved will go directly to Heaven...or Paradise, after all a rose by any other name...
I think (again, I do not know) that those people who rose from their graves at the moment Jesus died were the righteous dead (notice they were referred to as saints) that Jesus went into Hades (the grave) to set free. I think (I do not know) that they are, at this moment, in Paradise.
This seems to make a great deal more sense to me than any other theory I've ever heard...and definitely more sense than the Hadean underworld nonsense.

So, for what little it's worth, there are the Poor Widow's two dinarii...

The Barrd,

I think it was #242 above I gave Chuck Swindoll's simple explanation of what happens at death. I consider this is a basic and excellent explanation:

What happens at and after death for the Christian believer: ''When the believer dies, the body goes into the grave; the soul and spirit go immediately to be with the Lord Jesus awaiting the body's resurrection, when they're joined together to be forever with the Lord in eternal bliss' (Swindoll 1995:308).

I'm getting way too many email in this thread and it's overloading my inbox. So, I'm leaving this discussion. We seem to be going over and over similar material.

May the Lord bless and encourage you and may you have his peace in salvation, knowing that you have this assurance: 'Absent from the body and present with the Lord' (2 Cor 5:8 ESV).

Oz

 

[Barrd]

The Barrd,

I think it was #242 above I gave Chuck Swindoll's simple explanation of what happens at death. I consider this is a basic and excellent explanation:

I'm getting way too many email in this thread and it's overloading my inbox. So, I'm leaving this discussion. We seem to be going over and over similar material.

May the Lord bless and encourage you and may you have his peace in salvation, knowing that you have this assurance: 'Absent from the body and present with the Lord' (2 Cor 5:8 ESV).

Oz

I look forward to talking with you again, Oz.
You do seem like a fascinating old guy...

 

[ATP]

ATP, there is no comma because Koine Greek doesn't have any punctuation. Read the link I provided. Learn something new. I promise, it won't hurt.

The translators added the comma, therefore it changes the meaning of the sentence. It's translator bias.

Jesus is talking about where he went at the moment of death when crucified - to Paradise, i.e. heaven (cf Rev 2:7 ESV).

Correct, paradise. You have the right place, but your timing is off. Rev 2:7 speaks of this New Jerusalem on the New Earth. This "paradise" only descends to earth in Rev 21:2 NIV AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment and AFTER the 1,000 year reign with Christ. This paradise will be called the New Jerusalem which will descend to Earth to begin our eternity with God.

 

[ewq1938]

I think (again, I do not know) that those people who rose from their graves at the moment Jesus died were the righteous dead (notice they were referred to as saints) that Jesus went into Hades (the grave) to set free. I think (I do not know) that they are, at this moment, in Paradise.
This seems to make a great deal more sense to me than any other theory I've ever heard...and definitely more sense than the Hadean underworld nonsense.

Saints don't go to Hades/the grave. They go to paradise where the thief on the cross went.

 

[ATP]

Saints don't go to Hades/the grave. They go to paradise where the thief on the cross went.

But Jesus didn't ascend to heaven until 40 days later after resurrection.

Luke 23:43 NIV Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

 

[Bible_Gazer]

hummm! some thoughts - can it all be true ? knowing how and when it happened

1. Jesus died and went to Paradise
2. Jesus died and went to Hell
3. Jesus pour out his soul unto death - Isa. 53:12
4. Jesus body died and went to the grave
5. Jesus spirit was in God's hand -
6. Jesus prayed to be spared from death - Heb.5
7. Jesus took the sinners penalty on the cross, so he died like a sinner does.
8. Jesus body and soul is raised from the dead

Jesus body died
Jesus soul died
Jesus spirit returned unto God

 

[Guestman]

What is the purpose of going to heaven, how many are invited and what are the qualifications ? Many among the churches have the view that "all good people go to heaven". Is this a truth ? John the Baptist was noted by Jesus as a man "far more than a prophet".(Matt 11:9)


Yet of him he said: "Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is".(Matt 11:11) Hence, John, though righteous, is not among those chosen to go to heaven, but is among those whom Jesus said are the "meek (who) shall inherit the earth" upon his resurrection.(Matt 5:5, KJV)


So what is the purpose of the "heavenly calling" ?(Heb 3:1) To create a heavenly government or “Kingdom of the heavens”, made up of chosen individuals from the earth in order to bring to completion God’s original purpose of a paradise earth with righteous people living on it forever.(Gen 1:28)


When Adam rebelled in the garden of Eden some 6,000 years ago, he sinned or "missed" the mark of perfection as established by our Maker, Jehovah God.(The Hebrew word for sin, chattath, literally means "to miss", as in missing when shooting an arrow at a target)


Adam could only pass on to us, as our original parent, what he himself had - sin. We are thus flawed from conception that eventually leads to death.(Ps 51:5) There thus arose the need for a ransom (Ps 49:7, 8) and God provided a new aspect of his rulership, a heavenly government to undo the damage done by God's archenemy, Satan.(see Dan 2:45, that shows this heavenly government as a "stone...cut not by hands [or created by humans] " out "of a mountain" or God's universal sovereignty)


Therefore, immediately after the rebellion in the garden of Eden, Jehovah God made arrangements for this to become a reality, establishing that enmity or hatred would always be between the "serpent's offspring" (those who follow Satan as part of the "world", John 14:30) and the "woman's offspring".(Gen 3:15; the "woman" here is neither Eve nor Mary, but is the celestial body of loyal angels and in which one of its members became the principal "offspring" that would “crush Satan’s head”, along with secondary members as also her "offspring"; see Rev 12:17, also referred to as Abraham’s offspring, Gal 3:29; see also Gen 22:18)


So, in order for sin to be removed (for God’s original purpose of a paradise earth to be fulfilled, Isa 45:18), along with all who are Satan's "offspring" (see John 8:44 whereby Jesus calls Satan the Devil the hateful Jews “father” because of their wicked conduct, showing themselves to be his “children” ), Jehovah created a heavenly governmental arrangement called God’s Kingdom or “sacred secret”.(Matt 13:11; Eph 1:9, 10)


However, no one was chosen as members of this heavenly government, until Jesus ‘ entered into heaven itself to appear before God ‘ with his perfect shed blood (Heb 9:12, 24; Heb 10:19) which has to be applied to those who are selected and whereby these chosen ones have to meet very stringent qualifications.(producing “fruitage” of the Kingdom, Matt 21:43 or conduct as shown at Gal 5:22, 23) These had to be “sanctified” or made holy by being purified “by means of the truth”.(John 17:17)


Then on the day of Pentecost (meaning 50th day from Nisan 16 when the barley sheaf was offered, see Lev 23:15, 16), 33 C.E., there occurred the outpouring of holy spirit on the 120 in Jerusalem.(Acts 2:4) These were “sealed by means of him (Christ) with the promised holy spirit, which is a token in advance of (the) inheritance”.(Eph 1:13, 14) These then are “born from water and spirit” (John 3:5) by being “baptized into Christ”.(Gal 3:27)


However, all the faithful “great cloud of witnesses” (Heb 12:1) that lived and died before Jesus death and resurrection (such as Abel, Elijah, Noah, Daniel, John the Baptist, etc), have no prospect of going to heaven, but are among the “meek” who have the hope as ones that “shall inherit the earth”, along with others who qualify. Jesus quoted from Psalms 37 at Matthew 5:5, that says: “But the meek will possess the earth, and they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.....forever”.(Ps 37:11, 29)


Those selected for “partakers of the heavenly calling” from among imperfect individuals on the earth are limited to the number of 144,000 who have “been bought from the earth” (Rev 7:4; 14:1) and that is why Jesus calls them a “little flock” at Luke 12:32 as well the “bride of Christ”.(2 Cor 11:2; Rev 21:2) These are to serve in official positions as “kings and priests” (Rev 5:9, 10) and along with Jesus Christ as “the firstfruits” (or first one resurrected from the dead for heavenly life, 1 Cor 15:23), they make up the “Kingdom of God”.


Revelation 14:4, 5 says that “these are the ones who did not defile themselves with (symbolic) women; in fact they are virgins (remaining spiritual virgins by not defiling themselves with the beliefs and practices of Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion, which includes Christendom). These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish (measuring up to Jehovah’s holy standards of conduct)”.


Thus, those chosen as “partakers of the heavenly calling” must prove loyal down to the end of their life (Rev 2:10), in which they “observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus”.(Rev 12:17) They are active in making known the “good news of the Kingdom” around the earth (Matt 24:14) and avoid any entanglement in Satan’s political system, called “a wild beast” at Revelation 13:1, for anyone who worships it by means of being nationalistic, “not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb”.(Rev 13:8)


This “calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones”, those selected as “kings and priests” (Rev 13:10), for “this is a righteous judgment of God, leading to (their) being counted worthy of the Kingdom of God”.(2 Thess 1:5)


For their refusal to be “no part of the world” (John 15:19), from false religion to any involvement in the political arena (see John 6:15, whereby Jesus refused to be made king by the Jews as well as Jesus words to Pilate at John 18:36), to their activity in dispensing Bible truths “from house to house” (Acts 20:20) to not observing any of the false religious holidays such as Christmas and Easter, etc, to having put on the Christ-like personality, they are persecuted by “the dragon” Satan and his agents.(Rev 12:17; 2 Tim 3:12)


After God’s Kingdom has fulfilled its role of destroying all wickedness (2 John 3:8; Rev 19:11-15) and then transforming the earth into a paradise for “meek” ones (Ps 37:29; Prov 2:21) who also have to measure up to the same holy standards as the “chosen ones”, then Jesus “hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father.....then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One (Jehovah God) who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone”.(1 Cor 15:24, 28)

 

[Barrd]

What is the purpose of going to heaven, how many are invited and what are the qualifications ? Many among the churches have the view that "all good people go to heaven". Is this a truth ? John the Baptist was noted by Jesus as a man "far more than a prophet".(Matt 11:9)

Yet of him he said: "Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is".(Matt 11:11) Hence, John, though righteous, is not among those chosen to go to heaven, but is among those whom Jesus said are the "meek (who) shall inherit the earth" upon his resurrection.(Matt 5:5, KJV)

So what is the purpose of the "heavenly calling" ?(Heb 3:1) To create a heavenly government or “Kingdom of the heavens”, made up of chosen individuals from the earth in order to bring to completion God’s original purpose of a paradise earth with righteous people living on it forever.(Gen 1:28)

When Adam rebelled in the garden of Eden some 6,000 years ago, he sinned or "missed" the mark of perfection as established by our Maker, Jehovah God.(The Hebrew word for sin, chattath, literally means "to miss", as in missing when shooting an arrow at a target)

Adam could only pass on to us, as our original parent, what he himself had - sin. We are thus flawed from conception that eventually leads to death.(Ps 51:5) There thus arose the need for a ransom (Ps 49:7, 8) and God provided a new aspect of his rulership, a heavenly government to undo the damage done by God's archenemy, Satan.(see Dan 2:45, that shows this heavenly government as a "stone...cut not by hands [or created by humans] " out "of a mountain" or God's universal sovereignty)

Therefore, immediately after the rebellion in the garden of Eden, Jehovah God made arrangements for this to become a reality, establishing that enmity or hatred would always be between the "serpent's offspring" (those who follow Satan as part of the "world", John 14:30) and the "woman's offspring".(Gen 3:15; the "woman" here is neither Eve nor Mary, but is the celestial body of loyal angels and in which one of its members became the principal "offspring" that would “crush Satan’s head”, along with secondary members as also her "offspring"; see Rev 12:17, also referred to as Abraham’s offspring, Gal 3:29; see also Gen 22:18)

So, in order for sin to be removed (for God’s original purpose of a paradise earth to be fulfilled, Isa 45:18), along with all who are Satan's "offspring" (see John 8:44 whereby Jesus calls Satan the Devil the hateful Jews “father” because of their wicked conduct, showing themselves to be his “children” ), Jehovah created a heavenly governmental arrangement called God’s Kingdom or “sacred secret”.(Matt 13:11; Eph 1:9, 10)

However, no one was chosen as members of this heavenly government, until Jesus ‘ entered into heaven itself to appear before God ‘ with his perfect shed blood (Heb 9:12, 24; Heb 10:19) which has to be applied to those who are selected and whereby these chosen ones have to meet very stringent qualifications.(producing “fruitage” of the Kingdom, Matt 21:43 or conduct as shown at Gal 5:22, 23) These had to be “sanctified” or made holy by being purified “by means of the truth”.(John 17:17)

Then on the day of Pentecost (meaning 50th day from Nisan 16 when the barley sheaf was offered, see Lev 23:15, 16), 33 C.E., there occurred the outpouring of holy spirit on the 120 in Jerusalem.(Acts 2:4) These were “sealed by means of him (Christ) with the promised holy spirit, which is a token in advance of (the) inheritance”.(Eph 1:13, 14) These then are “born from water and spirit” (John 3:5) by being “baptized into Christ”.(Gal 3:27)

However, all the faithful “great cloud of witnesses” (Heb 12:1) that lived and died before Jesus death and resurrection (such as Abel, Elijah, Noah, Daniel, John the Baptist, etc), have no prospect of going to heaven, but are among the “meek” who have the hope as ones that “shall inherit the earth”, along with others who qualify. Jesus quoted from Psalms 37 at Matthew 5:5, that says: “But the meek will possess the earth, and they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.....forever”.(Ps 37:11, 29)

Those selected for “partakers of the heavenly calling” from among imperfect individuals on the earth are limited to the number of 144,000 who have “been bought from the earth” (Rev 7:4; 14:1) and that is why Jesus calls them a “little flock” at Luke 12:32 as well the “bride of Christ”.(2 Cor 11:2; Rev 21:2) These are to serve in official positions as “kings and priests” (Rev 5:9, 10) and along with Jesus Christ as “the firstfruits” (or first one resurrected from the dead for heavenly life, 1 Cor 15:23), they make up the “Kingdom of God”.

Revelation 14:4, 5 says that “these are the ones who did not defile themselves with (symbolic) women; in fact they are virgins (remaining spiritual virgins by not defiling themselves with the beliefs and practices of Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion, which includes Christendom). These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish (measuring up to Jehovah’s holy standards of conduct)”.

Thus, those chosen as “partakers of the heavenly calling” must prove loyal down to the end of their life (Rev 2:10), in which they “observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus”.(Rev 12:17) They are active in making known the “good news of the Kingdom” around the earth (Matt 24:14) and avoid any entanglement in Satan’s political system, called “a wild beast” at Revelation 13:1, for anyone who worships it by means of being nationalistic, “not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb”.(Rev 13:8)

This “calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones”, those selected as “kings and priests” (Rev 13:10), for “this is a righteous judgment of God, leading to (their) being counted worthy of the Kingdom of God”.(2 Thess 1:5)

For their refusal to be “no part of the world” (John 15:19), from false religion to any involvement in the political arena (see John 6:15, whereby Jesus refused to be made king by the Jews as well as Jesus words to Pilate at John 18:36), to their activity in dispensing Bible truths “from house to house” (Acts 20:20) to not observing any of the false religious holidays such as Christmas and Easter, etc, to having put on the Christ-like personality, they are persecuted by “the dragon” Satan and his agents.(Rev 12:17; 2 Tim 3:12)

After God’s Kingdom has fulfilled its role of destroying all wickedness (2 John 3:8; Rev 19:11-15) and then transforming the earth into a paradise for “meek” ones (Ps 37:29; Prov 2:21) who also have to measure up to the same holy standards as the “chosen ones”, then Jesus “hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father.....then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One (Jehovah God) who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone”.(1 Cor 15:24, 28)

Did you know that the men who translated the New Living Translation had no training in the languages of the Bible?

http://ittsy.com/focusonthefaulty/Pages/jehovahs.html
http://www.bible.ca/Jw-NWT.htm

Just thought folks ought to know that.

 

[Butch5]

That's incorrect on all points. They are called dead because their bodies are dead. Souls don't require a body as I prove below.








The souls had no body in those verses.





And? It has symbolism and literalism.






A vision doesn't mean not really happening. It means it was SEEN...VISION.


Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

They literally appeared.










Man is a body, with a soul and spirit inside. Gen 2:7 is using a different definition of soul, which simply means a living person but that is not the definition of the soul within us.








The context is dead bodies.





It is found in various scriptures which I have already presented. Even Christ was alive after he physically died when he visited Hades and preached the gospel:

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.








1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Now, one must understand that the word Hell is used for more than one place. The Hell he went to is known as Hades, the place of the spirits of the physically dead and prison for fallen angels.



He went in order to preach the gospel similar to going into a hostile or bad area to preach the gospel!


The dead were given a chance to hear the Gospel and be judged as if they were alive and heard the Gospel. It was so those who received and accepted it could live according to God in the spirit ie: receive salvation.


John 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

This proves that Jesus did at least for short time go to his father after he died.

This also proves he was not dead and sleeping in the grave after physical death.







Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Act 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (hades), neither his flesh did see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.


Proof Jesus' soul was in Hades.


Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


Hades is said to exist "downward" implying it's somewhere in the Earth, in a spiritual dimension of course, 2Pe_2:4, Luk_10:15, Eze_31:16, Isa_14:15.


Ecc_12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Naturally the spirit is alive when it returns to God.

HI eqw1938,

I don't think you're listening to me. I can address each of those passages above but I suspect you'll just disagree or post more. The point I am making is that the idea that man can somehow live after death is "NOT" taught in the Scriptures. You already believe that and bring it to the text. So, when you see certain passages of Scripture they seem to fit what you already believe. You are drawing your conclusions based on Inferences, not clear teaching from Scripture.

For instance on might say the Bible teaches that a man is justified by faith. Well, we can go to the Bible and see this clearly taught. In Romans 3 and 4 Paul teaches how a man is justified by faith and not the works of the Law. We don't find anything like this teaching that man can somehow live after death. Not a single passage of Scripture that you posted states that man can live after death. You've inferred that idea from those passages.

Your argument really is the fallacy of begging the question. You want to prove that man can live on after death and you post passages of Scripture in which you've assumed your premise, that man can live on after death. In the passage about the transfiguration you've assumed that man can live after death and presented that as evidence that man can live after death.


I'm going to address one of the passages you post above. If you'd like we can address all of them one at a time. ou said,

"It is found in various scriptures which I have already presented. Even Christ was alive after he physically died when he visited Hades and preached the gospel:

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Firstly, you've conflated two passages. 1 Peter 3 is talking about spirits and chapter 4 is talking about people. Lets start with chapter 3

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
(1 Pet. 3:18-20 NKJ)

Firstly, let's look at the order. Christ suffered, was put to death, made alive, and preached to spirits. So, the English text shows that He preached after being made live, not while He was dead. The Greek grammar requires this interpretation and doesn't allow for the idea that He preached while dead.

The Greek words that translated "being put to death" and "made alive" are both past tense participles the first is perfect tense and the second aorist. The word translated "preached" is not the word typically used of preaching the gospel. It means to proclaim something. The word is an indicative verb. In Greek grammar a participle's time element is subject to the time of the indicative verb. In other words the Greek grammar requires that both "being put to death" and "made alive" occured before He preached or made the proclamation. Therefore the grammar requires that He was alive when He made the proclamation. Peter says that Christ made that proclamation to the spirit in prison who were disobedient in the time of Noah. I submit that what He proclaimed to them is what Peter tells us a few verses later.

22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1 Pet. 3:22 NKJ)


Regarding chapter 4. There is a perfectly logical understanding of this passage that doesn't require that the dead are somehow alive. Peter said,


NKJ 1 Peter 4:1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,
2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles-- when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
7 But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.
(1 Pet. 4:1-7 NKJ)


I submit that in this context Peter is simply speaking of the gospel having been preached to those who had died. After all Paul said that the Gospel had been preached to Abraham and he was certainly dead when Peter wrote his letter. IN context peter is addressing the issue of God judging. He's telling them to live right because God will judge all, bot the living and the dead. Then he explains how God could judge those who had died. it is because they too had the Gospel.

As I said, I'd be happy to discuss this but it's got to be done orderly or there won't be any progress.

 

[Butch5]

Did you know that the men who translated the New Living Translation had no training in the languages of the Bible?

http://ittsy.com/focusonthefaulty/Pages/jehovahs.html
http://www.bible.ca/Jw-NWT.htm

Just thought folks ought to know that.

That wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Butch5]

So...what and where do you guys think Paradise is?
Just curious...




(now why do I feel as if I'd just tossed a cat into a pen with a couple of pit bulls?)

The Greek word means a garden. You have to wonder why the translators transliterated it rather than translating it. It seems to me that theological biases came into play here. I mean image if they translated the passage about the thief as Jesus saying. 'I tell you today you will be with me in a garden.' That sure would through a kink into some theological positions. However, to answer your question I believe Scripture tells us that paradise is the garden in the Kingdom. If we look at what the thief asked for it and what Jesus said, I think it's pretty clear. The thief asked Jesus to remember him when He came into His Kingdom. The thief wasn't concerned with where he'd be later that day, he knew. He want to make sure that he made it into the kingdom. Jesus relied telling him that he would be with Him in the garden. The garden of Eden is also called paradise. I believe this is the paradise of God and will be in the kingdom. Revelation speaks of the tree of life being in the kingdom. Jesus said,

7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."' (Rev. 2:7 NKJ)

There's really no reason to believe that paradise is some underground place of the dead. The reason that people come to that conclusion is by conflating the passages of the thief on the cross and the rich man and Lazarus

 

[Butch5]

I've been listening to you guys debating this issue, and it's been interesting...
But frankly, I think you are both wrong.

I certainly do not think anyone goes to some creepy Hadean underworld when they die...the idea just gives me the shivers.
Nor do I think we go into soul sleep...though I have to admit, I'm not so sure about that one.

What I think (not what I know but what I think) is that, like the thief on the cross, those of us who are saved will go directly to Heaven...or Paradise, after all a rose by any other name...
I think (again, I do not know) that those people who rose from their graves at the moment Jesus died were the righteous dead (notice they were referred to as saints) that Jesus went into Hades (the grave) to set free. I think (I do not know) that they are, at this moment, in Paradise.
This seems to make a great deal more sense to me than any other theory I've ever heard...and definitely more sense than the Hadean underworld nonsense.

So, for what little it's worth, there are the Poor Widow's two dinarii...

The problem is that too many come to the text with this idea that man can live when he is dead. This idea comes from outside of the Bible and is supported with poor exegesis of the text. There is nothing in the Scriptures that teaches that man can be alive when dead and there is nothing in the Scriptures that teaches that believers go to Heaven. Both of these ideas are tied together and are teachings that were popular in Greek thinking.

I can give you some really good links to study this or discuss it with you if you'd like.

 

[Butch5]

So, just so I know who is who here, who wants the comma before the word 'today'...and who wants it after?

Because it makes much more sense before...
"Verily I say unto you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Jesus had often used the phrase "Verily I say unto you". Now that He is in His extremity...dying in pain...I seriously doubt He would make a change. Obviously, He is telling the thief that he will be with Him in paradise that very day.

Not in Hades, nor in Abraham's bosom...but in Paradise. Just thought I'd clear that up.

It only makes sense if you presuppose that it is possible that they could be there. It depends on one's beliefs. For instance, I understand paradise as the kingdom of God, thus the thief could not be there that day.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus body died
Jesus soul died
Jesus spirit returned unto God

His "internal" soul did not die. Problem is "soul" is also an old term that meant a persons body or a living person. Pouring out your soul simply means a person died and their soul left the body.

 

[ewq1938]

HI eqw1938,

I don't think you're listening to me. I can address each of those passages above but I suspect you'll just disagree or post more. The point I am making is that the idea that man can somehow live after death is "NOT" taught in the Scriptures. You already believe that and bring it to the text. So, when you see certain passages of Scripture they seem to fit what you already believe. You are drawing your conclusions based on Inferences, not clear teaching from Scripture.

For instance on might say the Bible teaches that a man is justified by faith. Well, we can go to the Bible and see this clearly taught. In Romans 3 and 4 Paul teaches how a man is justified by faith and not the works of the Law. We don't find anything like this teaching that man can somehow live after death. Not a single passage of Scripture that you posted states that man can live after death. You've inferred that idea from those passages.

Your argument really is the fallacy of begging the question. You want to prove that man can live on after death and you post passages of Scripture in which you've assumed your premise, that man can live on after death. In the passage about the transfiguration you've assumed that man can live after death and presented that as evidence that man can live after death.


I'm going to address one of the passages you post above. If you'd like we can address all of them one at a time. ou said,

"It is found in various scriptures which I have already presented. Even Christ was alive after he physically died when he visited Hades and preached the gospel:

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Firstly, you've conflated two passages. 1 Peter 3 is talking about spirits and chapter 4 is talking about people. Lets start with chapter 3

No, they are all part of the same context and conversation. Chapters were added much later and do not denote a change of subject.
It's all speaking about Christ going to Hades and speaking to the unsaved dead....proving he was alive in a different way after death. Your belief that there is no life after death is scripturally false.

Firstly, let's look at the order. Christ suffered, was put to death, made alive, and preached to spirits. So, the English text shows that He preached after being made live, not while He was dead.

When he died, only his body died...the rest lived.

The Greek grammar requires this interpretation and doesn't allow for the idea that He preached while dead.

He preached as a spirit while his body lay dead....he qualifies as being called "dead" for that reason.

I submit that in this context Peter is simply speaking of the gospel having been preached to those who had died.

That was my entire point lol...it proves life continues after death it's simply in a different form of life.

 

[ATP]

He preached as a spirit while his body lay dead....he qualifies as being called "dead" for that reason.

Jesus was preaching to fallen angels (spirits), not people.

1 Pet 3:19-20 - The Greek text requires that the proclamation was made after the resurrection. (1 Peter 3:18 NIV For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,) (1 Peter 3:21 NIV and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,)

However, the passage isn't speaking of preaching the Gospel. It's talking about Jesus making a proclamation to the disobedient spirits. The proclamation is probably what Peter states a few verses later. (1 Peter 3:22 NIV who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.) Jesus said just before sending out the apostles that all authority had been given to Him Matt 28:16-20 NIV. This is probably what He proclaimed to the disobedient Spirits.

The Greek words that are translated death (thanatoo) and alive (zoopoieo) are Greek participles. The word translated preached is an indicative verb. Death (thanatoo) is a perfect tense participle and alive (zoopoieo) is an aorist tense participle, both are past tense. Greek participles are subject to the tense of the main verb. That means the time element of the participles is subject to the main verb preached (kerusso). In other words, the past tense participles, death (thanatoo) and alive (zoopoieo) are past tense from the point of the main verb preached (kerusso), not to the time of the writer.

1 Peter 3:18-22 NIV For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

2 Peter 2:4-9 NIV For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.

Gen 6:1-4 NIV When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal ; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.” 4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Jude 1:6 NIV And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

 

[Barrd]

It only makes sense if you presuppose that it is possible that they could be there. It depends on one's beliefs. For instance, I understand paradise as the kingdom of God, thus the thief could not be there that day.

I don't see any reason at all why not. Jesus is God, isn't He?
What is impossible for Him?