How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[Butch5]

ewq1938, on 03 Aug 2015 - 3:25 PM, said:

No, they are all part of the same context and conversation. Chapters were added much later and do not denote a change of subject.
It's all speaking about Christ going to Hades and speaking to the unsaved dead....proving he was alive in a different way after death. Your belief that there is no life after death is scripturally false.

Firstly, let me say that I have not said there is no life after death. What I've said is the dead are not alive. There is life after death at the resurrection when all will be raised . However, between death and the resurrection man is dead.

You keep asserting an opinion without substantiating it. I showed you how the Greek grammar does not allow for your interpretation of that passage. Even in English it says He was made alive before He went and preached. The passage also says that He preached to the disobedient spirits of Noah's day. It doesn't say He preached to dead people.

When he died, only his body died...the rest lived.

You're imposing that on the passage. It doesn't say His body died. By saying that you create another problem for yourself. Scripture says that Christ died for sin, it doesn't say Christ's body died for sins. So, if it was only His body that died then for sin.

12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa. 53:12 NKJ)


Isaiah said that He poured out HIs soul unto death. That's more than just His body.

He preached as a spirit while his body lay dead....he qualifies as being called "dead" for that reason.

For Him to preach as a spirit He would have to be a spirit, however, we read from Paul that He was made like unto his brethren in "ALL" ways. WE know from Gen 2 that man is not a spirit but rather a physical being with the breath of life in Him. So, He couldn't have preached as a spirit

That was my entire point lol...it proves life continues after death it's simply in a different form of life.

No, you've missed my point. I pointed out that Paul said the Gospel had been preached to Abraham. Abraham was alive when it was preached to him. They were all alive when the Gospel was preached to them, they were dead when Peter wrote his letter

 

[Butch5]

I don't see any reason at all why not. Jesus is God, isn't He?
What is impossible for Him?

Jesus is God in what sense?

 

[Barrd]

Jesus was preaching to fallen angels (spirits), not people.

1 Pet 3:19-20 - The Greek text requires that the proclamation was made after the resurrection. (1 Peter 3:18 NIV For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,) (1 Peter 3:21 NIV and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,)

However, the passage isn't speaking of preaching the Gospel. It's talking about Jesus making a proclamation to the disobedient spirits. The proclamation is probably what Peter states a few verses later. (1 Peter 3:22 NIV who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.) Jesus said just before sending out the apostles that all authority had been given to Him Matt 28:16-20 NIV. This is probably what He proclaimed to the disobedient Spirits.

The Greek words that are translated death (thanatoo) and alive (zoopoieo) are Greek participles. The word translated preached is an indicative verb. Death (thanatoo) is a perfect tense participle and alive (zoopoieo) is an aorist tense participle, both are past tense. Greek participles are subject to the tense of the main verb. That means the time element of the participles is subject to the main verb preached (kerusso). In other words, the past tense participles, death (thanatoo) and alive (zoopoieo) are past tense from the point of the main verb preached (kerusso), not to the time of the writer.

1 Peter 3:18-22 NIV For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

2 Peter 2:4-9 NIV For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.

Gen 6:1-4 NIV When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal ; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.” 4The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Jude 1:6 NIV And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

Could you post a source for this, please, ATP?

 

[Barrd]

Jesus is God in what sense?

I'm sure you know these verses:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And this one:

Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

In what sense?
Why, He was and is fully God, and fully man.

I thought that was a basic tenet of the Christian faith?

 

[Butch5]

His "internal" soul did not die. Problem is "soul" is also an old term that meant a persons body or a living person. Pouring out your soul simply means a person died and their soul left the body.

If you study the word soul, nephesh and psuche through the Scriptures you'll find that they are used of a physical being or of life it self. It's not some conscious out of body existence. Please look at the evidence.

 

[ATP]

Could you post a source for this, please, ATP?

Tartarus is a holding area for fallen angels.

2 Peter 2:4-9 HCSB For if God didn't spare the angels who sinned, but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment; 5 and if He didn't spare the ancient world, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others, when He brought a flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and if He reduced the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes and condemned them to ruin, making them an example to those who were going to be ungodly; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, distressed by the unrestrained behavior of the immoral 8 (for as he lived among them, that righteous man tormented himself day by day with the lawless deeds he saw and heard)- 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,

 

[ewq1938]

Firstly, let me say that I have not said there is no life after death. What I've said is the dead are not alive. There is life after death at the resurrection when all will be raised . However, between death and the resurrection man is dead.

Except scripture shows there is immediate life after death....the soul and spirit do not die when the body dies.

Even in English it says He was made alive before He went and preached.

That's called the resurrection of the spirit, despite the spirit never having died. It just has a different implication in modern English than the original language.

The passage also says that He preached to the disobedient spirits of Noah's day. It doesn't say He preached to dead people.

They had died and he went to preach to their living spirits.

You're imposing that on the passage. It doesn't say His body died.

It doesn't have to specific the body died because we know it did.

Scripture says that Christ died for sin, it doesn't say Christ's body died for sins. So, if it was only His body that died then for sin.

It's a figure of speech to say a person died when you are really saying the body the person had died. That's what it means in any language. Only Christ's body died. A soul and spirit do not die at physical death nor can the soul and spirit die of someone who is God.

12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa. 53:12 NKJ)


Isaiah said that He poured out HIs soul unto death. That's more than just His body.

No, it is speaking of his body. You just don't understand the language.

Barnes:

Because he hath poured out his soul unto death - His triumphs would be an appropriate reward for his sufferings, his death, and his intercession. The expression ‘he poured out his soul,’ or his life (נפשׁו napeshô; see the notes at Isa_53:10), is derived from the fact that the life was supposed to reside in the blood (see the notes at Rom_3:25); and that when the blood was poured out, the life was supposed to flow forth with it. As a reward for his having thus laid down his life, he would extend his triumphs over the whole world, and subdue the most mighty to himself.

For Him to preach as a spirit He would have to be a spirit, however, we read from Paul that He was made like unto his brethren in "ALL" ways. WE know from Gen 2 that man is not a spirit but rather a physical being with the breath of life in Him. So, He couldn't have preached as a spirit

That doesn't make any sense. You can't take scripture talking about how he was born like us, and compare that to after he died. Your manner of exegetion needs a lot of work friend.

No, you've missed my point. I pointed out that Paul said the Gospel had been preached to Abraham. Abraham was alive when it was preached to him. They were all alive when the Gospel was preached to them, they were dead when Peter wrote his letter

They were dead in body but alive in spirit.

 

[ewq1938]

If you study the word soul, nephesh and psuche through the Scriptures you'll find that they are used of a physical being or of life it self. It's not some conscious out of body existence. Please look at the evidence.

Outside of the body it is a spirit and is alive. Here are soul and spirit compared because they are actually the same thing:


SOUL (nephesh):
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions

SPIRIT (ruach)
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
1a) breath
1b) wind
1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
1c2) courage
1c3) temper, anger
1c4) impatience, patience
1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
1e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1e1) desire
1e2) sorrow, trouble
1f) spirit
1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts
1f2) rarely of the will
1f3) as seat especially of moral character(13)

So in Hebrew "soul" refers to "that which breathes" and to the mind, desire, and emotions.
And "spirit" refers to "that which breathes" and the part of us which experiences emotions and is responsible for "mental acts."

Thayer's Greek words for soul (psuche) and spirit (pneuma):


SOUL (psuche):
1) breath
1a) the breath of life
1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
1a1a) of animals
1a12) of men
1b) life
1c) that in which there is life
1c1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death....

SPIRIT (pneuma)
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.(14)



Thus in Greek "soul" refers to the animating principle which feels, desires, and can attain everlasting life with God.
And "spirit" is also the animating principle which feels, thinks, and decides. And notice once again, the use of the word soul to define spirit (twice in fact: 2b,3b). Only #4 for spirit gives so much as a hint the two might be distinct.

Again using the Strong's:




Spirit
G4151
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

Soul
G5590
psuche
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.



Summing up, overall the definitions of the English words and lexical entries for the Hebrew and Greek words indicate that "soul" and "spirit" are interchangeable terms, with common characteristics ascribed to both.[/quote]


Spirit: "by analogy or figuratively a spirit" and "the rational soul"
Soul: "(by implication) spirit" and "the rational and immortal soul"

Same exact meanings.



Jas_5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Here clearly soul cannot mean the body or even the humanly life because converting people does not save them from physical death. It is speaking of the second death which is when soul and spirit and body are killed.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Butch5]

Outside of the body it is a spirit and is alive. Here are soul and spirit compared because they are actually the same thing:


SOUL (nephesh):
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions

SPIRIT (ruach)
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
1a) breath
1b) wind
1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
1c2) courage
1c3) temper, anger
1c4) impatience, patience
1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
1e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1e1) desire
1e2) sorrow, trouble
1f) spirit
1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts
1f2) rarely of the will
1f3) as seat especially of moral character(13)

So in Hebrew "soul" refers to "that which breathes" and to the mind, desire, and emotions.
And "spirit" refers to "that which breathes" and the part of us which experiences emotions and is responsible for "mental acts."

Thayer's Greek words for soul (psuche) and spirit (pneuma):


SOUL (psuche):
1) breath
1a) the breath of life
1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
1a1a) of animals
1a12) of men
1b) life
1c) that in which there is life
1c1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death....

SPIRIT (pneuma)
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.(14)



Thus in Greek "soul" refers to the animating principle which feels, desires, and can attain everlasting life with God.
And "spirit" is also the animating principle which feels, thinks, and decides. And notice once again, the use of the word soul to define spirit (twice in fact: 2b,3b). Only #4 for spirit gives so much as a hint the two might be distinct.

Again using the Strong's:




Spirit
G4151
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

Soul
G5590
psuche
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.



Summing up, overall the definitions of the English words and lexical entries for the Hebrew and Greek words indicate that "soul" and "spirit" are interchangeable terms, with common characteristics ascribed to both.

Spirit: "by analogy or figuratively a spirit" and "the rational soul"
Soul: "(by implication) spirit" and "the rational and immortal soul"

Same exact meanings.



Jas_5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Here clearly soul cannot mean the body or even the humanly life because converting people does not save them from physical death. It is speaking of the second death which is when soul and spirit and body are killed.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.



[/QUOTE]No, they're not the same thing, that's why I said, if you go through THE SCRIPTURES. A dictionary is just someone's opinion of what the word mean. If you want to know what Biblical words mean see how the Bible uses them. You also have to take into account figures of speech and other uses in language.

I'll ask you again, where do we find some teaching that man is alive after death? The idea is simply assumed in your argument. I reject that assumption so in order to get on equal ground you'll need to prove that from Scripture

 

[ATP]

Outside of the body it is a spirit and is alive. Here are soul and spirit compared because they are actually the same thing:

Ya, two different words with two different functions. Sure, they're the same.

Do you ignore any post in which you have no answer, in post 268?

 

[Butch5]

Except scripture shows there is immediate life after death....the soul and spirit do not die when the body dies.



That's called the resurrection of the spirit, despite the spirit never having died. It just has a different implication in modern English than the original language.





They had died and he went to preach to their living spirits.





It doesn't have to specific the body died because we know it did.




It's a figure of speech to say a person died when you are really saying the body the person had died. That's what it means in any language. Only Christ's body died. A soul and spirit do not die at physical death nor can the soul and spirit die of someone who is God.





No, it is speaking of his body. You just don't understand the language.

Barnes:

Because he hath poured out his soul unto death - His triumphs would be an appropriate reward for his sufferings, his death, and his intercession. The expression ‘he poured out his soul,’ or his life (נפשׁו napeshô; see the notes at Isa_53:10), is derived from the fact that the life was supposed to reside in the blood (see the notes at Rom_3:25); and that when the blood was poured out, the life was supposed to flow forth with it. As a reward for his having thus laid down his life, he would extend his triumphs over the whole world, and subdue the most mighty to himself.





That doesn't make any sense. You can't take scripture talking about how he was born like us, and compare that to after he died. Your manner of exegetion needs a lot of work friend.






They were dead in body but alive in spirit.

Here again, you're just making arbitrary statements. I could simply claim the opposite. I've shown you that your understanding of the passage is not possible, the Greek grammar doesn't allow it. Simply stating something doesn't make it so. Please be rational.

 

[Barrd]

Tartarus is a holding area for fallen angels.

2 Peter 2:4-9 HCSB For if God didn't spare the angels who sinned, but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment; 5 and if He didn't spare the ancient world, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others, when He brought a flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and if He reduced the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes and condemned them to ruin, making them an example to those who were going to be ungodly; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, distressed by the unrestrained behavior of the immoral 8 (for as he lived among them, that righteous man tormented himself day by day with the lawless deeds he saw and heard)- 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,

Did you know that Tartarus was the place where Zeus imprisoned the Titans?
I'm not making this up.
Google it...

 

[ATP]

Did you know that Tartarus was the place where Zeus imprisoned the Titans?
I'm not making this up.
Google it...

Tartarus is only used once in the Bible, specifically in that passage. I'm just going by what scripture says. Hades and Tartarus are not the same place.

 

[ewq1938]

I'll ask you again, where do we find some teaching that man is alive after death? The idea is simply assumed in your argument. I reject that assumption so in order to get on equal ground you'll need to prove that from Scripture

I've provided several examples already.

 

[ewq1938]

Here again, you're just making arbitrary statements. I could simply claim the opposite. I've shown you that your understanding of the passage is not possible, the Greek grammar doesn't allow it. Simply stating something doesn't make it so. Please be rational.

lol, I am the one giving evidence for what I say, not you. I quoted a Greek scholar and I can quote more if needed.

 

[Bible_Gazer]

well its seem like some believe nobody ever dies when ever they leave their body.

Life and death is not what it really is ?

Save the body it is really who you are ?

Then the resurrection is about bring the body back to life to live happily ever .

 

[ewq1938]

Did you know that Tartarus was the place where Zeus imprisoned the Titans?
I'm not making this up.
Google it...

What God did to the fallen angels took place long before Greek mythology. GM simply stole from the historical facts and altered and added to them.

 

[ATP]

lol, I am the one giving evidence for what I say, not you. I quoted a Greek scholar and I can quote more if needed.

You've quoted like two scriptures. Butch quoted like 15.

 

[Butch5]

lol, I am the one giving evidence for what I say, not you. I quoted a Greek scholar and I can quote more if needed.

Quoting a Greek scholar has no bearing on how the Scriptures use words. I'll bet you don't know anything about that Greek scholar other than he wrote a book. People post commentaries and dictionary definitions as if they are Scriptures. They're not they're the woks of fallible men. You don't know that they are any more correct than I am. You don't know that I'm not a Greek scholar. Rather than taking someone else's word for it why not do the research yourself? That way you can avoid translator bias. I've done the research and I can assure you that Nephesh does not mean the same thing as Nehsamah or ruach.

 

[Butch5]

I've provided several examples already.

No, you've provided inferences. Nothing you provided lays out the process of how man can be alive when he dies. You've provided the passage about the transfiguration. The passage says nothing about how a man is able to live after he dies. You've simply inferred that he can because the passage says that Moses and Elijah appeared on the mountain. The same thing with the passage from 1 Peter, it says nothing about how the dead can be alive. You've inferred that because the passage says the Christ preached to the disobedient spirits. Just because one draws an inference it doesn't necessitate that that inference is correct. I can look outside and see that the grass is wet and infer that it rained. Does that mean that it rained? Maybe, maybe not. It could also be that the sprinkler came on. That's the problem with forming doctrines on inferences rather than clear statements of Scripture.My position is based on clear statements of Scripture not inferences.

You won't be able to provide that clear teaching that man is alive when he dies because that idea is foreign to Scripture.